LifeOnaPlate Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 In order for someone to make an educated decision on what they believe, they should be given all information. Keeping this information from people, or hinting that it isn't important, should raise a red flag to everyone. No one has a right to tell me what I should know. No one has the right to pick and choose what should be important to me.AndeeHere you are. The recent introduction of Preach My Gospel as the fundamental missionary approach for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was an exciting development for me. Still, despite its strengths, undoubtedly some will still notice its apparent weaknesses.For example, some critics assert Mormons, and especially missionaries, need to provide a fuller picture of their history. (Strangely, some who claim the Church spends too much time on Joseph Smith at the expense of Jesus Christ also appear to want more discussion of Smith.) Daniel C. Peterson's fundamental nature seems to render him incapable of avoiding this opportunity for satire. He offered the following as a possible rewrite of an early Christian missionary approach, providing a more full account of the controversies surrounding the apostolic witness:"Hi folks. My name is Peter. I am an eyewitness of the resurrection of Jesus. I saw him alive, after I had seen him killed. However, as mandated by the rules of full disclosure and in accordance with best historiographical practices, I need to point out that my credibility as a witness has been questioned. I may be entirely insane. (Who am I to say?) Worse, I have serious character issues. I assaulted a young temple servant in the Garden of Gethsemane, for instance, intending to kill him with my sword. I lied about knowing Jesus in order to protect myself from possible harm. (Even friendly sources admit these things.) I was really, really upset by the death of Jesus and the disappointment of our messianic hopes -- we had given up our lucrative fish business in Capernaum and devoted three full years to following Jesus around as vagrant religious fanatics without productive jobs (Jesus promised me and my brothers a rich pay-off if we did, so you shouldn't forget the self-interest angle here), and you can imagine the psychic shock we experienced when he was suddenly killed -- so it's possible that I merely imagined Jesus' postmortem appearances. Wish-fulfillment, and all that. (I've read my Freud!) And, to cap it all, I'm a primitive ancient person, absolutely awash in pre-scientific superstitions, from a provincial backwater town in a provincial backwater country, with virtually no education. Would you buy a used car from me? Anyway, though, as I was saying: I'm an eyewitness. I saw, or claim I saw, or think I saw, Jesus, in some form, alive, in some sense, after he was possibly dead. (What am I? A doctor? [You and my Jewish mother!] You think we maybe had electroencephalographs or even scientifically rigorous definitions of death in 33 AD?) If you believe what I'm telling you, the Roman authorities aren't gonna like it. Well, that's all for now, folks. It's hard to talk, upside down on a cross like this. Fortunately, some rabbinic anti-Christian tracts have fallen out of my pockets. Feel free to read them. And if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask them: I've probably only got an hour or two of consciousness left."
LifeOnaPlate Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 No one has a right to tell me what I should know. No one has the right to pick and choose what should be important to me.Andee, I suppose this means you do not watch any news programs, read any magazines or newspapers, or support any type of mainstream education including public schools in the US if that is where you live, and especially not higher education. Correct?
MatthewG Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Seems the Ex-Mo flood gate has been opened, i left this thread 2 hours ago and it's grown 2 pages already, wonder if they're coming over from other discussion boards, is there a twin thread at CARM?
JLFuller Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 "...intellectual reasons for leaving the church?"No such critter. There is only the intellectual side for not finding out whether the church is true and as claimed.
Luigi Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 This is a sincere question for those who left the church because you felt that the church hid something from you, or who advocate the church be more forthcoming about what you consider the negatives. Assuming you were able to learn these things sooner, what difference would it have made on whether you left the church or not. I don't see how it makes any difference if some of the things that turn you away from the church are learned earlier or later. Perhaps you can explain it.Sorry, kind of late to jump in responding to the OP but I've thought a lot about this. While I wish I had broken free from Mormonism at an earlier age for many of the reasons that Tarski originally mentioned I don't know if a more open approach to Church history or other problematic parts of Mormonism would have helped that much. The reason is that shielding youth from negative information is only one tactic used by members to prevent loss of testimony. An equally common tactic is to continually insist that anything, whether information or influence, that leads individuals away from the Church will ultimately lead to their spiritual destruction. If you convince them through repititition or other means that this is the case you don't even have to protect them from negative information-they will avoid it on their own. Such was my situation. I had access to some information about the Church which was negative but I avoided it because I was taught to fear loss of my testimony. I also had been convinced that other religions were false and thus if Mormonism fell that only left atheism. I was terrified of the idea of no life after death and so I wanted Mormonism to be true. I had been instilled with the view that atheism was a hopeless depraved belief which would only lead to misery and consequently I also wanted to avoid anything which would lead me to it. I also think we have a natural inhibition of doing things which would distance us from our familiar social group. Growing up my family and most of my close friends were LDS and that undoubtedly made me feel a need to remain in Mormonism as well. Without Mormonism I would have most likely received relatively less support from family in my chosen endeavors, would have been an undesirable marriage partner to most of the girls I had associated with, and would have had difficulty in relating to family and friends not being in that particular social loop. Many of the positive and negative emotions which motivated me toward or away from Mormonism respectively were most likely the instincts evolved to make me more likely to stay within my social group. Last I should add that the teaching that these positive/negative emotions were God communicating to me certainly instilled even more hesitance on my part to evaluate the possibility of my belief system being wrong.
MatthewG Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 "...intellectual reasons for leaving the church?"No such critter. There is only the intellectual side for not finding out whether the church is true and as claimed.Only "stupid educated people" leave the church for intellectual reasons
AZ_RM Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Seems the Ex-Mo flood gate has been opened, i left this thread 2 hours ago and it's grown 2 pages already, wonder if they're coming over from other discussion boards, is there a twin thread at CARM?Actually, a link was put up at postmormon.org.Interesting thread btw.I don't know if I felt deceived. I certainly feel that some things were purposefully omitted at certain times. I knew a lot about the controversial stuff, but I never questioned any of the answers. I don't have any objective evidence of purposeful deception, just my anecdotal feelings on the matter. Pretty inconclusive, imo.I think if I had more exposure to some of the "weird" stuff it would have delayed my leaving the church, I don't know if it would have stopped me completely, but it possibly could have. We'll never know.It wasn't really the evidence against the church specifically, rather learning about human psychology and the scientific method and being exposed to many ideas from various backgrounds that started my apostasy.Oh, and sinning of course. Only "stupid educated people" leave the church for intellectual reasons /raises handActually, I'm a stupid uneducated person who left for intellectual reasons.
ERMD Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Funny, that even with 8 years of post-graduate education, "intellectual reasons" are part of why I stay. (A small part, mind you, but a part nonetheless.)Maybe I'm just not intellectual enough.
Daniel Peterson Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Sure, for a weekend trip every few years. It was great, tripping up Highway 89, crowded into the old station wagon. We went to the zoo once, and then rode the escalator at Cottonwood Mall. We even went to the State Fair one time and I got to ride the ferris wheel and eat cotton candy. Good times. What was the point again?That your opportunities for learning about Mormon history were as good as mine.Cletus don' know nuthin' 'bout no book-larnin'. No, wait, there was such a place a few hours drive away!Whereas, in my southern California town, there was a Deseret Book store ten feet to the right of my house, another directly across the street, a Seagull Books outlet two houses to the left, and an itinerant LDS book peddlar who visited us twice daily?So what do you suggest I should have spent my dime-a-bale hay-hauling money on in this "bookstore" place, other than my copy of The Miracle of Forgiveness and Paul Dunn tapes? You know, when you're one of 14 growing up on a small farm, things like that tend to take a back seat to subsistence. Still, we should not have been so lazy. Instead of reading those Zane Grey novels in our down time (after the cows were milked, the hay was cut and baled and hauled, the sheep were shorn, the fences were fixed, the ditches were dug, the pigs were butchered, the horses were shod, the crops were watered, etc.), we should have been tracking down all the possible discrepancies in the party-line as delivered by our parents and Sunday School teachers. Shame on me and all my family and friends for simply accepting what we were told.I've said nothing about "shame," but I do tire of whining victimhood. "The Church lied to me!" "The Church kept me from reading!" "The Church didn't furnish me with The Complete List of Brigham Young Quotations on Blacks©!"Fortunately, unlike you, I grew up a child of privilege. When I woke up at 11:30 AM every day, my man Jeeves was always standing by my bed bearing a silver tray loaded with the latest Mormon historical writing, including executive summaries to cover what I was unable to read before my 1:30 PM bedtime. Once a week, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve came to my house to inform me of historical tidbits that I might still have missed. And, on the third Sunday of each month, the entire Church Historical Department came to dine with me.
AZ_RM Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Fortunately, unlike you, I grew up a child of privilege. When I woke up at 11:30 AM every day, my man Jeeves was always standing by my bed bearing a silver tray loaded with the latest Mormon historical writing, including executive summaries to cover what I was unable to read before my 1:30 PM bedtime. Once a week, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve came to my house to inform me of historical tidbits that I might still have missed. And, on the third Sunday of each month, the entire Church Historical Department came to dine with me.ROFL!I wish I had been more intellectually inclined at a younger age, because I sure would have had easy access to a vast amount of information.Oh, well. Better late to the feast at the table of knowledge than never.
Deborah Posted March 16, 2009 Author Posted March 16, 2009 While I wish I had broken free from Mormonism at an earlier age for many of the reasons that Tarski originally mentioned I don't know if a more open approach to Church history or other problematic parts of Mormonism would have helped that much. I'm curious to know how many really cared enough in the teen years to have wanted to know more. I know in looking back, a lot of you are saying you felt you didn't want to question because of fear of losing testimony; but I wonder if that is just hindsight. When I was that age, most of us were concerned more about if so-and-so cute boy or girl would be at Mutual and who would be at the church dance on Saturday, etc. Even though I had been exposed to a lot of anti stuff when I was still in high school it wasn't until I got to college and had access to books that I really started looking into the history, and then I became a voracious reader. Fortunately all the stuff I read didn't upset me as it appears to have done others. I suppose because I never expected anyone, including prophets to be perfect given my reading of the OT.
MatthewG Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Actually, a link was put up at postmormon.org.Interesting thread btw.I don't know if I felt deceived. I certainly feel that some things were purposefully omitted at certain times. I knew a lot about the controversial stuff, but I never questioned any of the answers. I don't have any objective evidence of purposeful deception, just my anecdotal feelings on the matter. Pretty inconclusive, imo.I think if I had more exposure to some of the "weird" stuff it would have delayed my leaving the church, I don't know if it would have stopped me completely, but it possibly could have. We'll never know.It wasn't really the evidence against the church specifically, rather learning about human psychology and the scientific method and being exposed to many ideas from various backgrounds that started my apostasy.Oh, and sinning of course. /raises handActually, I'm a stupid uneducated person who left for intellectual reasons.What is the link?
Deborah Posted March 16, 2009 Author Posted March 16, 2009 Wow. this was a reference btw to those who talked about going on missions and not being converted and basically going through the motions because it was expected.
Tarski Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 this was a reference btw to those who talked about going on missions and not being converted and basically going through the motions because it was expected.Not only expected, but instructed by authorities. I was told by a general authority to behave as if I already had a testimony (so as to thereby get one somehow).
AZ_RM Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 What is the link?http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/...ewthread/14431/
ERayR Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 I am curious to know when I stepped out of the boundries according to the rules of this website. No one forces you to come on this website, no one forces me to come on this website. We both come here hopefully to discuss ideas and thoughts with each other. By discussing your beliefs and my beliefs, it is possible to come to an understanding about other people. I honestly can not think of anything that I have said that tries to destroy someone else. Granted, many people may not like what I say, and I certainly don't like what others say. But I would never jump to the conclusion that they are purposely trying to destroy my beliefs by simply stating or discussing theirs. In fact, since you seem to hold what I say in such high regard, I would say you are not comfortable with your beliefs. If you truly believed, it wouldn't matter what I say. I am going out on a limb here, but maybe you try to convince yourself that I am miserable because you fear that those outside the church can truly have peace through ways that are diametrically opposed to everything that you stand for, believe, and live. But hey, 18 year old psychology doesn't mean much. 1. The use of irony is hard to detect over the internet.2. I think I am done with this line of questioning.Your approach of coming on and dogmatically asserting the LDS church is false is a definite impediment to the discussion of issues. State what you are having problems with then read the responses and give them some consideration. This approach would go a long way towards a civil discourse.
MatthewG Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/...ewthread/14431/The winterfoodsteps poster or whatever her screen name is, is a moderator over there, and STILL was the Poster of the link.
Jeff K. Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Not only expected, but instructed by authorities. I was told by a general authority to behave as if I already had a testimony (so as to thereby get one somehow).That must be why they raised the bar and made it more difficult for missionaries to go out. Generally the instruction presented, regardless of the way a bitter ex-Mormon tries to slant it, is that the way you act is generally the way you become. And this often enough is true. Though I believe it should be internally driven, we know that God doesn't always deal strictly with internally driven criteria.
MatthewG Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 HI EX-MOS, I'm assuming that most of the major "guests" and Anonymous people I'm seeing recently are coming from the post-mo web site. I've never really seen so many people reading a thread in long time. Must have struck a cord. There are 18 read this thread as I post, 10 guests!
Kyle Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 name='ERayR' date='Mar 16 2009, 12:20 PM' post='1208616188']Your approach of coming on and dogmatically asserting the LDS church is false is a definite impediment to the discussion of issues.What is it that you would want me to say? That I think the church is true? To not discuss what I think and feel? To me, that is what would exactly hinder the discussion of issues.State what you are having problems with then read the responses and give them some consideration. This approach would go a long way towards a civil discourse.I agree. Let's both not presume to know what the other is thinking and feeling.
AZ_RM Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 HI EX-MOS, I'm assuming that most of the major "guests" and Anonymous people I'm seeing recently are coming from the post-mo web site. I've never really seen so many people reading a thread in long time. Must have struck a cord. There are 18 read this thread as I post, 10 guests!Hi back at ya!I haven't read here for a while.Nice to you y'all going strong.
Kyle Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 No such critter. There is only the intellectual side for not finding out whether the church is true and as claimed.Only "stupid educated people" leave the church for intellectual reasons So I assume that you guys know what the intellectual reasons are?
ERayR Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 name='ERayR' date='Mar 16 2009, 12:20 PM' post='1208616188']What is it that you would want me to say? That I think the church is true? To not discuss what I think and feel? To me, that is what would exactly hinder the discussion of issues.I agree. Let's both not presume to know what the other is thinking and feeling.A dogmatic assertion of falseness of the LDS church contributes nothing to a civil discussion. You see I can just as dogmatically assert that the LDS church is true. My assertion is just as valid as your. As I stated befor lost the issues, preferably one at a time, that is bothering you. Above all read and consider the answers, you will find that quite often you will findsome very well thought out and documented responses And if you are a sincere seeker you may just learn something.
mledbetter Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 I left the church at 15-16 (I'm 18), mostly from the internet. With all the thougths, theories, and ideas on the net, it was not a difficult experience compared to what others might have had to go through. I talk to friends that are my age that are still in the church, and some that have left the church. Those who have left have all said the use of the internet for their best source. My friend and I were talking that the "Mormon Life" is like a small glass shell, and its especially fragile as a teen. I feel that my generation is the first that has such a vast amount of knowledge at our fingertips, and for that I am grateful.I think it will be interesting to look at statistics in the next couple of decades and see if the internet will affected youth members.Everything on the internet is true. I actually have the entire internet installed on my computer. I know because I asked the tech guy to install my internet and he did.
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