For those who felt deceived

[Daniel Peterson]

Anyway, if that's all it means nowadays, any organization with 10 to 20 missionaries could easily accomplish that task. Just send one person into each country for a few days, preaching on a street corner, and you've got it done. Filled the Earth, just like that.

However, I would like to see how this will be accomplished in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran, where missionary work is illegal. Perhaps we could redefine "nation" to mean "continent" and declare the work done already.

I know a man who was converted to the Church in Saudi Arabia solely by exposure to the Church's website. He then proceeded to convert his Syrian bride, whom I also know. They now live in Australia, having received religious refugee status there.

I would imagine that the Church's website is accessible in Iran, too. (I know, having seen it there, that a friend's Bahaâ??i website is easily accessible in Tehran -- and Bahaâ??ism is very much on the Iranian regime's mind, whereas Mormonism is not.) I have several Iranian-convert friends, as well.

So don't assume that the Church's message is not, even now, reaching Saudi Arabia and Iran.

But your mockery of the idea that having a relatively small number of Latter-day Saints in countries around the world is all that's needed to fulfill prophecy, that most of the world is supposed to convert to Mormonism, runs afoul of such passages as 1 Nephi 14:11-12, which do not seem to predict world domination for Mormonism.

objectively, it is in fact possible to KNOW that religion of any brand is wrong.

How?

Second, if an individual has no idea that "other stories" even exist, how do they know to look for information about those things? This is particularly true for individuals who live in areas with very few LDS, and where it's not likely to hear about these things without deliberately seeking out information about these things. For example, if someone has no idea that more than one version of the First Vision exists, how would they know to look for information about it?

I grew up in southern California. My father was a non-member; my mother was a semi-active member. My ward was not particularly intellectual. In fact, based on my experience since that time, it was perhaps a bit sub-par in that respect. I had no LDS friends at school.

Nobody had to "tell" me that other stories existed. Nobody informed me that multiple First Vision accounts existed. I found these things out for myself -- early and easily -- because I was interested in Mormon history and doctrine and read a lot. As I've pointed out, the fact that various accounts of the First Vision exist has been commonplace in Dialogue, BYU Studies, multiple books on Church history (including the kind available in a typical Seagull or Deseret bookstore), and even the Ensign for decades now. I don't really know how the Church can compel its members to pay attention, though.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Easy, Dan, through force.

[ERayR]

It's interesting you would jump to the conclusion that I am not at peace. What drew you to that conclusion?

Because you can't leave others to the peace of their convictions. You are picking at any thread that you think will overturn the belifs of LDS. If you were at peace you would be glad they had comfort in their beliefs instead of trying to destroy them. You are trying to make others miserable as yourself.

[Scott Lloyd]

Easy, Dan, through force.

How about mind control? Tinfoil hats, anyone?

[ERayR]

I assume this is in response to my post. I never said that the church keeps information from its members or that it hides anything. My problem is that it generally presents it in a way that is infantilizing.

Yet you feel that you must be spoon fed all these bits of information in the worst case scenario format. It is available. Where is your resposibility.

[krose]

But your mockery of the idea that having a relatively small number of Latter-day Saints in countries around the world is all that's needed to fulfill prophecy, that most of the world is supposed to convert to Mormonism, runs afoul of such passages as 1 Nephi 14:11-12, which do not seem to predict world domination for Mormonism.

I was originally responding to the poster who said that the prophecy was being fulfilled and that the church was "filling the Earth." By the way, what about D&C 65:2 (...from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth)?

I grew up in southern California. My father was a non-member; my mother was a semi-active member. My ward was not particularly intellectual. In fact, based on my experience since that time, it was perhaps a bit sub-par in that respect. I had no LDS friends at school.

You should have tried growing up in a 100% LDS small town in Utah, decades before the Internet, where the only thing like a library was the Bookmobile that came around every other Tuesday with a fine selection of paperback mystery and romance novels. If it wasn't in our lesson manuals or mentioned in Conference, we didn't hear about it. I certainly never had any reason to question any of that information.

[Analytics]

For my part, one of the experiences of my life that was most disturbing for my testimony was studying church history for 45 minutes every day for nine months when I was 16 (i.e. seminary 85-86). I canâ??t say if any of the pet anti-Mormon issues were detailed in that class; nevertheless, the class was disturbingâ??even if they didnâ??t draw attention to the details of the other side of the story, there were conspicuous holes in what they did say that lead me to feel in my gut that something was wrong. Furthermore, you donâ??t need anti-Mormon literature to see that, for example, D&C 132 says a lot of creepy things.

I also distinctly recall some anti-Mormon issues being directly addressed in Institute a couple of years later.

[Daniel Peterson]

I was originally responding to the poster who said that the prophecy was being fulfilled and that the church was "filling the Earth." By the way, what about D&C 65:2 (...from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth)?

What about it?

You should have tried growing up in a 100% LDS small town in Utah, decades before the Internet, where the only thing like a library was the Bookmobile that came around every other Tuesday with a fine selection of paperback mystery and romance novels. If it wasn't in our lesson manuals or mentioned in Conference, we didn't hear about it. I certainly never had any reason to question any of that information.

The library in my suburban California city had about three, or maybe four, books on Mormonism, and they weren't especially good. It was decades before the internet.

I'm trying to figure out what you imagine to be the enormous advantages that I had over you, such that I easily learned about these matters while you were kept in the dark. Did you never go to Salt Lake City? Had you ever heard of something called a "bookstore"? Had federal mail service not reached your town yet?

[StillShell]

This is a sincere question for those who left the church because you felt that the church hid something from you, or who advocate the church be more forthcoming about what you consider the negatives. Assuming you were able to learn these things sooner, what difference would it have made on whether you left the church or not. I don't see how it makes any difference if some of the things that turn you away from the church are learned earlier or later. Perhaps you can explain it.

"Assuming you were able to learn these things sooner, what difference would it have made on whether you left the church or not."

Its a hypothetical situation. I can only guess how I reacted based on some of the other "warts" that I learned while in my youth. I personally learned about BY Plural marriage when I was a child. Living in the Davis County area we had been to the beehive house, church buildings and BYU many times. It was discussed and explained so we understood. But for me having been brought up in a very active family. I had a very LDS lifestyle, I would think more so than many of you on this board.

-We went to Aspen Grove for the BYU family vacations

-Went to BYU education week as a teen

-Started Seminary in Jr. High

-Dad was a Seminary teacher for some years

-Both Parents went to Ricks College and BYU

I always thought I knew the history of the church. I loved to read but I mostly read books by Lund, Hansen and other LDS fiction. Finding out a couple years ago the "warts" was so hard. What makes it harder is when you get accused of leaving for the wrong reasons. I believe if I had learned these things as a child I would of accepted them as I did all the other teachings. I have been on this forum enough to know there is a LARGE debate about if this information is available and if its hidden. All I can do is share my story. One thing I wanted to add, only to show 'my side'. Just this last Thanksgiving as I had my 2nd discussion about my doubts with my Dad. We talked about the Seer Stones and the Hat. Again it was something I had NEVER heard of until just now. My Dad told me that he had not even heard of it until a meeting with teachers at Seminary. It was interesting to see how he had heard it as an adult and was able to be 'ok' with it. But again...he was a Ricks and BYU graduate and didn't know about that??? Maybe it was living in Davis County but we just didn't ever hear of these subjects. I hope this helps your question.

[Deborah]

I'm trying to figure out what you imagine to be the enormous advantages that I had over you, such that I easily learned about these matters while you were kept in the dark.

I'm still trying to figure out how learning these things early would have changed the ultimate decision since it appears that everyone is saying they would have left the church no matter when they learned them. Meanwhile, while they were "pretending" to be good missionaries etc, who knows what good they might have done.

[ERayR]

Even with members being at different levels, given three hours of Church every week it would seem that they could do something...

There are 168 hours in a week. The church classes have at most 3. Those three are dedicated to seeing that all have at least the basics. You must take the resposibility for the other 165 hours and do something on your own. Afterall this is a religion that espouses personal resposibility. Far too many want it handed to them without any self effort.

It appears you had no trouble finding it, but the dificulty seems to come in your ability to digest and handle the information. It seems the problem is not that you didn't have the information but your choices in how you handled it when you received it. Perhaps you would have been better off not having that information. That is not Gods, nor the churches way. You have to take what you get and make choices. Its called agency. Its how you do in this realm(use of agency) that makes the difference.

[ERayR]

name='a5m5a5d' date='Mar 15 2009, 09:22 PM' post='1208615826']

It's things like this that give the impression of 18 year olds... not being learned.

Is it possible that some leave the church because it is not true?

How do you know this?

1) It's statements like this that give the impression that 18 year olds have knowledge beyond their ability to comprehend and that they think they know everything. I hope you are able to learn as much in the next 50 years as you think you know now.

2) No! Because it is true.

[krose]

I'm still trying to figure out how learning these things early would have changed the ultimate decision since it appears that everyone is saying they would have left the church no matter when they learned them. Meanwhile, while they were "pretending" to be good missionaries etc, who knows what good they might have done.

Wow.

[JLFuller]

"So are you suggesting that all of the women (and family members) who provided statements for the LDS church asserting their marital relations with JS â?? and by that I mean physical relations â?? were lying or crazy?"

It bears investigating in cases where there is no corroborating witnesses to support the woman's story.

[wintersfootsteps]

Was I taught that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon with a stone in a hat? No.

Was I taught that those with dark skin were once denied the priesthood because they were believed to have been less valiant in heaven before they were born? Nope.

Did any of my church leaders share the complete list of quotes given by prophets like Brigham Young about racism? No.

Did anyone ever mention that Joseph Smith had more than one version of the first vision? Not once.

There are countless examples, I could literally go on and on... Sure, these historical events are available to anyone who seeks them, but it is honest to portray history in a way that isn't 100% correct? No.

I was definitely deceived, and I wonder how many believing members of the church truly understand how this church came to be.

In order for someone to make an educated decision on what they believe, they should be given all information. Keeping this information from people, or hinting that it isn't important, should raise a red flag to everyone. No one has a right to tell me what I should know. No one has the right to pick and choose what should be important to me.

Andee

Edited to add: Any church or religion that asks its members to be completely honest should have to be held to the same standards. To me, and others, it's evident that they have not been completely honest. They have made decisions on what the members should know, what they shouldn't know, and how to approach things that occurred in the past like polygamy and racism. Is that honest? Nope.

[JLFuller]

I am not a die hard anything. I am a skeptic and agnostic. I admit to having seen no evidence for the existence of a Biblical God and have not been moved by other's boasts of having been in contact with God (since I once though the same thing and likely for the same reasons).

Doc, I have to say I relate to you a bit, in the sense that I am fearful I will be on the outside looking in someday.

[StillShell]

It bears investigating in cases where there is no corroborating witnesses to support the woman's story.

What kind of witnesses were present?? Was it typical to have a witness for "that" event? Mary Elizabeth Lightner did give witness of the products of those relations.

[JLFuller]

Was I taught that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon with a stone in a hat? No.

Was I taught that those with dark skin were once denied the priesthood because they were believed to have been less valiant in heaven before they were born? Nope.

Did any of my church leaders share the complete list of quotes given by prophets like Brigham Young about racism? No.

Did anyone ever mention that Joseph Smith had more than one version of the first vision? Not once.

There are countless examples, I could literally go on and on... Sure, these historical events are available to anyone who seeks them, but it is honest to portray history in a way that isn't 100% correct? No.

I was definitely deceived, and I wonder how many believing members of the church truly understand how this church came to be.

In order for someone to make an educated decision on what they believe, they should be given all information. Keeping this information from people, or hinting that it isn't important, should raise a red flag to everyone. No one has a right to tell me what I should know. No one has the right to pick and choose what should be important to me.

Andee

Edited to add: Any church or religion that asks its members to be completely honest should have to be held to the same standards. To me, and others, it's evident that they have not been completely honest. They have made decisions on what the members should know, what they shouldn't know, and how to approach things that occurred in the past like polygamy and racism. Is that honest? Nope.

Friend, the term perfectionist is not used much these days but that is what I see happening in the minds of many people. The Gospel and history of the Church and all its leadership must absolutely be as the viewer thinks it should be or somebody is deceitful or a liar. Well the Church membership is not made of perfect people and the Church leadership isn't either. So if the perfectionists absolutely must have perfection they should look elsewhere. You and I know there is no such organization and there are no such leaders. The offshoot then is these folks don't know what they want and I think that is an internal dissatisfaction with who they are as human beings. They project their hated of their own personal imperfections on others. I'll bet they hate their dogs too.

[Kyle]

Because you can't leave others to the peace of their convictions. You are picking at any thread that you think will overturn the belifs of LDS. If you were at peace you would be glad they had comfort in their beliefs instead of trying to destroy them. You are trying to make others miserable as yourself.

I am curious to know when I stepped out of the boundries according to the rules of this website. No one forces you to come on this website, no one forces me to come on this website. We both come here hopefully to discuss ideas and thoughts with each other. By discussing your beliefs and my beliefs, it is possible to come to an understanding about other people. I honestly can not think of anything that I have said that tries to destroy someone else. Granted, many people may not like what I say, and I certainly don't like what others say. But I would never jump to the conclusion that they are purposely trying to destroy my beliefs by simply stating or discussing theirs.

In fact, since you seem to hold what I say in such high regard, I would say you are not comfortable with your beliefs. If you truly believed, it wouldn't matter what I say. I am going out on a limb here, but maybe you try to convince yourself that I am miserable because you fear that those outside the church can truly have peace through ways that are diametrically opposed to everything that you stand for, believe, and live. But hey, 18 year old psychology doesn't mean much.

1) It's statements like this that give the impression that 18 year olds have knowledge beyond their ability to comprehend and that they think they know everything. I hope you are able to learn as much in the next 50 years as you think you know now.

2) No! Because it is true.

1. The use of irony is hard to detect over the internet.

2. I think I am done with this line of questioning.

[Daniel Peterson]

Was I taught that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon with a stone in a hat? No.

It wasn't hidden.

Was I taught that those with dark skin were once denied the priesthood because they were believed to have been less valiant in heaven before they were born? Nope.

You really never heard that?

Color me astonished.

Did any of my church leaders share the complete list of quotes given by prophets like Brigham Young about racism? No.

I myself don't know where The Complete List exists. I doubt that you've seen it even now. A carefully selected anthology of the most shocking quotations probably doesn't fill the bill.

Did anyone ever mention that Joseph Smith had more than one version of the first vision? Not once.

Except, that is, in Dialogue, in BYU Studies, in various volumes from Bookcraft and Deseret Book and other LDS publishers, in classes at BYU and BYU-Idaho and BYU-Hawaii, in the Ensign, and the like.

There are countless examples, I could literally go on and on... Sure, these historical events are available to anyone who seeks them, but it is honest to portray history in a way that isn't 100% correct? No.

You've never encountered a history that is 100% complete. Such a thing is impossible.

I was definitely deceived, and I wonder how many believing members of the church truly understand how this church came to be.

The overwhelming majority of them do.

In order for someone to make an educated decision on what they believe, they should be given all information.

That's impossible.

Do you have it even now? Are you ready to take a quiz?

No one has a right to tell me what I should know. No one has the right to pick and choose what should be important to me.

And nobody has.

Any church or religion that asks its members to be completely honest should have to be held to the same standards. To me, and others, it's evident that they have not been completely honest.

Nonsense.

They have made decisions on what the members should know, what they shouldn't know, and how to approach things that occurred in the past like polygamy and racism. Is that honest? Nope.

Any historian or teacher who makes no decisions about how to approach things that occurred in the past should be fired and should never be read.

[Mortal Man]

Any other questions that have no justification other than in your own over-active imagination?

Just one, and then I will give my over-active imagination some rest; it's giving me a splitting headache.

Do you feel that you have been largely misunderstood by members, who can't relate to your intellectual reasons for leaving the church?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Was I taught that those with dark skin were once denied the priesthood because they were believed to have been less valiant in heaven before they were born? Nope.

Excellent, you were fortunate to have not been subjected to false rationalization for the priesthood restriction that has since been repudiated.

[JLFuller]

What kind of witnesses were present?? Was it typical to have a witness for "that" event? Mary Elizabeth Lightner did give witness of the products of those relations.

Still

Investigation is not rocket science. It is a fill-in-the-blank thing. Even you can do it. Taking someone's word for something is just not enough especially when it involves the reputation of another person. We would not accept it today so why should we accept for those times? If there is no corroboration then the story does not stand by itself. Multiple such stories is not proof either. All we have are multiple stories that cannot stand on their own.

The Joseph Smith Papers Project will eventually provide a better picture of where Joseph was when these events took place. At least we will have a better idea of where he was and who he was with and what they were doing. AS of today this info is not generally available. We don't have the evidence one way or the other by and large. So I think everybody should just sit down and stop getting their undies in a bunch and wait until we have more information. Don't you think we should get Joseph's side of the story too?

[krose]

Did you never go to Salt Lake City?

Sure, for a weekend trip every few years. It was great, tripping up Highway 89, crowded into the old station wagon. We went to the zoo once, and then rode the escalator at Cottonwood Mall. We even went to the State Fair one time and I got to ride the ferris wheel and eat cotton candy. Good times. What was the point again?

Had you ever heard of something called a "bookstore"? Had federal mail service not reached your town yet?

Cletus don' know nuthin' 'bout no book-larnin'. No, wait, there was such a place a few hours drive away! So what do you suggest I should have spent my dime-a-bale hay-hauling money on in this "bookstore" place, other than my copy of The Miracle of Forgiveness and Paul Dunn tapes? You know, when you're one of 14 growing up on a small farm, things like that tend to take a back seat to subsistence.

Still, we should not have been so lazy. Instead of reading those Zane Grey novels in our down time (after the cows were milked, the hay was cut and baled and hauled, the sheep were shorn, the fences were fixed, the ditches were dug, the pigs were butchered, the horses were shod, the crops were watered, etc.), we should have been tracking down all the possible discrepancies in the party-line as delivered by our parents and Sunday School teachers. Shame on me and all my family and friends for simply accepting what we were told.

[Kyle]

Just one, and then I will give my over-active imagination some rest; it's giving me a splitting headache.

Do you feel that you have been largely misunderstood by members, who can't relate to your intellectual reasons for leaving the church?

Bingo