Mudcat Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 I was reading Pa Pa's thread on vicarious baptism and it got me thinking about this.Who goes where?The name Spirit Prison, doesn't sound like a very inviting locale but Paradise does seem paradisaical. However, it seems LDS vicariously baptize for such spirit prisoners.What are the requirements to go to Paradise?.Same question for Spirit Prison?
Mars Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 From Alma 40: (Pardon the mispellings, I copied straight from scriptures.lds.org and it appends the superscript footnotes as regular text when you copy and paste.)11 Now, concerning the astate of the soul between bdeath and the resurrectionâ??Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are ctaken dhome to that God who gave them life. 12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of ahappiness, which is called bparadise, a state of rest, a state of cpeace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. 13 And then shall it come to pass, that the aspirits of the wicked, yea, who are evilâ??for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the bdevil did enter into them, and take possession of their houseâ??and these shall be cast out into outer cdarkness; there shall be dweeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. 14 Now this is the state of the asouls of the bwicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, cfearful looking for the fiery dindignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.Other people will have cooler and funner answers that are better written.Hope life's treating you good, Mr. Cat.
Mars Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 It is Papa Mars' personal opinion that the difference between righteous and wicked here is purely a function of the choices you make depending on what you've been given- parable of talents kinda thing. A loser of a Mormon goes to spirit prison and the righteous and well meaning atheist (hehehe! 'righteous atheist'...) goes to paradise.
Mudcat Posted March 4, 2009 Author Posted March 4, 2009 From Alma 40: (Pardon the mispellings, I copied straight from scriptures.lds.org and it appends the superscript footnotes as regular text when you copy and paste.)Other people will have cooler and funner answers that are better written.I suppose the definition of righteous and wicked are still up for grabs. Is a good Buddhist righteous or wicked? How about..... is a good person?Hope life's treating you good, Mr. Cat. Yes, I suppose it is...... It's been stressy, new kid on the way and the last week and the next month or more of my spare time is pretty well vested in "finishing out" my Wife's new dance studio...But all is well and thanks for asking.Mud
jadams_4242 Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 I was reading Pa Pa's thread on vicarious baptism and it got me thinking about this.Who goes where?The name Spirit Prison, doesn't sound like a very inviting locale but Paradise does seem paradisaical. However, it seems LDS vicariously baptize for such spirit prisoners.What are the requirements to go to Paradise?.Same question for Spirit Prison? Well to give yu an idea, you know of course about the theif? Well he did acknowledge Jesus as lord and savior, {finally}.And so he went to paradise, not where God and the son go, but to a separate paradise. Then in other biblical scripture of course you know of Jesus when he went and preached to and converted, {and baptized} 8 {disobedient} souls whom were in spirit prison. So if one is relying on biblical scripture alone; it should be of very serious thought about just how,why,where, this all ties together, Why were the {disobedient} dead souls in spirit prison, Why did they accept baptism, Why did the theif go to paradise, and not prison. Good stuff to ponder!
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 I was reading Pa Pa's thread on vicarious baptism and it got me thinking about this.Who goes where?The name Spirit Prison, doesn't sound like a very inviting locale but Paradise does seem paradisaical. However, it seems LDS vicariously baptize for such spirit prisoners.What are the requirements to go to Paradise?.Same question for Spirit Prison?Righteous, according to light and knowledge would be Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.Wicked are these who sin against the "light of Christ", which all men posses. "Conscience"
BCSpace Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 I was reading Pa Pa's thread on vicarious baptism and it got me thinking about this.Who goes where?The name Spirit Prison, doesn't sound like a very inviting locale but Paradise does seem paradisaical. However, it seems LDS vicariously baptize for such spirit prisoners.What are the requirements to go to Paradise?.Same question for Spirit Prison?There are two divisions in the spirit word. One is a basic division between the wicked and the righteous. The other is between those who have opportunity to hear and accept the gospel and those who did not.The question is, are those who have not heard the gospel necessarily in the same state as those who are wicked? I don't think so, so I go with six separate states in the Spirit World....1. Righteous, accepted the gospel2. Righteous, do not accept the gospel3. Righteous, have not heard the gospel 4. Wicked, accepted the gospel5. Wicked, do not accept the gospel6. Wicked, have not heard the gospel Another question of course is how much does accepting the gospel affect the state of the wicked?12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. 13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evilâ??for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their houseâ??and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be dweeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. 14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection. Alma 4018 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the ccaptives who had been faithful; 19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance. 20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; 21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face. 22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace; ........28 And I wondered at the words of Peterâ??wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noahâ??and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time. 29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them; 30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to fall the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. 31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel. 32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. 33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, 34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. D&C 138
Mars Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 Muddy, I hit you with the definition angle too. I think it's a parable of talents thing. We'll be judged on what we did based on what we knew. Yes, absolutely, a Buddhist can be considered righteous for this context.
Joseph Antley Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 I've been taught that the ordinance of baptism is necessary to pass from spirit prison to paradise. Do others agree with this?
The Nehor Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 Paradise: Accept Baptism through correct authority and keep your covenants.Prison/Hell: Everyone else.
Mudcat Posted March 4, 2009 Author Posted March 4, 2009 Seems there is some mixed opinions on this.Some appear to support righteousness upon action towards the light that one has been given.Others seem to believe an LDS baptism is requisite for admission to paradise. Seems this is a bum deal for those who have died without hearing the Gospel.I understand LDS baptize vicariously, but what about all those people that there is no record of, because they died so long ago.I understand that LDS feel this will be addressed in the millennium, but doesn't it seem a little harsh on such folks as that?
JLFuller Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 I was reading Pa Pa's thread on vicarious baptism and it got me thinking about this.Who goes where?The name Spirit Prison, doesn't sound like a very inviting locale but Paradise does seem paradisaical. However, it seems LDS vicariously baptize for such spirit prisoners.What are the requirements to go to Paradise?.Same question for Spirit Prison?I understand after you die you are going to Milwaukee.
The Nehor Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 Seems there is some mixed opinions on this.Some appear to support righteousness upon action towards the light that one has been given.Others seem to believe an LDS baptism is requisite for admission to paradise. Seems this is a bum deal for those who have died without hearing the Gospel.I understand LDS baptize vicariously, but what about all those people that there is no record of, because they died so long ago.I understand that LDS feel this will be addressed in the millennium, but doesn't it seem a little harsh on such folks as that?I assume those who are forced to wait did something to merit this in the Premortal World, but that is just a guess. God does not always explain his every action though. One of the perks of being God.
Mudcat Posted March 4, 2009 Author Posted March 4, 2009 I understand after you die you are going to Milwaukee. That is great news!The Beer Capital of The World!!
Garden Girl Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 Hi Mudcat...IMO it is not so harsh... because... we are told in the scriptures that the dead shall hear the voice of the Lord (John 5:28)... and, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (1 Peter 3: 18-22)... "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1Peter 4:6)... and...D&C 138... particularly 29-37...So, the spirits in spirit prison do not have to wait until the Millennium... they are being taught now... and that is one reason we do our temple ordinances for our deceased ancestors now... because many have been taught the gospel and are waiting for us to complete their work... to us, we believe this will also continue to be the great work of the Millennium...GG
Mudcat Posted March 4, 2009 Author Posted March 4, 2009 Hi Mudcat...IMO it is not so harsh... because... we are told in the scriptures that the dead shall hear the voice of the Lord (John 5:28)... and, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (1 Peter 3: 18-22)... "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1Peter 4:6)... and...D&C 138... particularly 29-37...So, the spirits in spirit prison do not have to wait until the Millennium... they are being taught now... and that is one reason we do our temple ordinances for our deceased ancestors now... because many have been taught the gospel and are waiting for us to complete their work... to us, we believe this will also continue to be the great work of the Millennium...GGIt sounds like you might be in agreement with BC and Pa Pa here.Do you think a person who is awaiting an ordinance to be done is still in Spirit Prison until it is completed?
jadams_4242 Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 Seems there is some mixed opinions on this.Some appear to support righteousness upon action towards the light that one has been given.Others seem to believe an LDS baptism is requisite for admission to paradise. Seems this is a bum deal for those who have died without hearing the Gospel.I understand LDS baptize vicariously, but what about all those people that there is no record of, because they died so long ago.I understand that LDS feel this will be addressed in the millennium, but doesn't it seem a little harsh on such folks as that?I know this plan is not only very wonderfull, but true; Now going on this statement of yours, what do you beleive in regards to salvation, baptism ,judgement day,millenium,all to be judged by there works, then how do you tie that in with people whom died before the bible was written? e;t;c....
Mudcat Posted March 4, 2009 Author Posted March 4, 2009 I know this plan is not only very wonderfull, but true; Now going on this statement of yours, what do you beleive in regards to salvation, baptism ,judgement day,millenium,all to be judged by there works, then how do you tie that in with people whom died before the bible was written? e;t;c.... I really wasn't wanting to discuss my beliefs on the matter. Rather just get a clearer understanding on what LDS think about this sort of thing.
Mars Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 Mudcat, punishment is only for those who have sinned. Blessings are only for those who have worked - save the atonement (because there's no work we could ever do to merit that).I do not believe that it is so cut and dry. Spirit prison, in terms of punishment, is relative. For the sinful soul who now knows he was a sinner and messed up his mortal journey fairly bad, there's quite a bit of punishment in realizing that a.) he's not at peace with himself and b.) he's really up a creek when judgment day comes. For the soul who died, having lived a good life, who has not received the ordinances by the authority of God (e.g. baptism), he is in 'punishment' because he knows that he is a.) worthy to receive the blessings of baptism and other priesthood ordinances should he receive them and b.) is unable to do so because his work has not yet been completed on the mortal side of things.Side note 1: I think there's disagreement because not everyone reads everybody else's post and we kind of talk past each other. Side note 2: I'm familiar with a Gospel spiritual hymn "Poor Man Laz'rus" where Lazarus was the poor man who had to eat crumbs from the rich man's table, suffering and tormented. Then they both die, and now on the other side, the rich man was tormented and Lazarus was not because he was righteous. The refrain comes as a request from the rich man to Lazarus: "Dip your finger in the water, come and cool my tongue, for I'm tormented in the flame." Play along for a moment... If this is an accurate description of the state of things after the fact, then the water could represent the Gospel itself - re: Jesus and the woman at the well. It could also mean that the water represents baptism, and that the righteous man wanted to be taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ, accept it, be baptized, and cease his torment for knowing he sinned - presumably a rich jerk. This is how I see it.You're a very level headed fellow. How do you see it?
jadams_4242 Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 I really wasn't wanting to discuss my beliefs on the matter. Rather just get a clearer understanding on what LDS think about this sort of thing. I understand that, but also seems as yu were demeaning in a way the l.d.s knowledge of vicarious works. When yu asked if it is fair; so i was wondering what you might deem fair?
Mudcat Posted March 4, 2009 Author Posted March 4, 2009 I understand that, but also seems as yu were demeaning in a way the l.d.s knowledge of vicarious works. When yu asked if it is fair; so i was wondering what you might deem fair? It just seemed that there contrasting positions among LDS on the subject.
Mars Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 Trust me, Jadams, Mudcat wasn't taking any shots at the LDS take on things.
Rob Osborn Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 I've been taught that the ordinance of baptism is necessary to pass from spirit prison to paradise. Do others agree with this?For those in prison, yes i believe that they must be baptized in order to be passed from there into paradise.As for who who goes where after they die i believe it to be this way-Everyone who is wicked goes to spirit prison. This is basically because paradise shouldn't be run and troden through by the wicked dregs of mankind. I believe however that most people are righteous and go to paradise. In both places- paradise and prison, the gospel is taught. I honestly believe that in the spirit world, they have their own baptismal font and temples and the like for performing the cvarious ceremonies and that a spirit doesn't actually have to wait until his "physical" work on this earth is done before he can leave spirit prison. There must be some sort of ritual that is either exact or similar in the spirit world for the spirit to act upon, otherwise it really doesn't mean anything having done no actual work or entered into any ordinance.
Garden Girl Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 Hi Mudcat...My understanding, is... Those spirits in "spirit prison" must be taught and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them by the Lord's messengers. They must then repent and accept responsibility for their sins and take advantage of Christ's atoning sacrifice. Having had physical bodies, spirits in prison can repent for deeds done in the flesh and seek Christ's deliverance through the atonement and qualify for the companionship of the righteous in spirit paradise while awaiting the performance of vicarious ordinances for them in earthly temples.GG
Flyonthewall Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 I have often thought that the difference between Paradise and Prison is one's state of mind. Those that are righteous will see it as paradise. Those that are unrighteous will see it as prison. It may very well be two separate places, or it may be one place with the two camps on different ends.Of course the definition of righteous/unrighteous is still up for grabs, but as others have set forth, I believe it will be based on what one did with what they knew.
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