LeSellers Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 I've been taught that the ordinance of baptism is necessary to pass from spirit prison to paradise.Yes.And no. It's that, and more. If we assume that the truly evil all go to Spirit Prison (and stay there) and the truly repentant go to Paradise (and stay there), we are left with a huge number of people in the middle who go to either of the two places. We know from Doc&Cov 138 that there is a significant missionary effort in the Spirit world, both Paradise and Prison, and that people in both places who have not received the Gospel of Jesus Christ (or even possibly who had received it, but then rejected it). Reception of the Gospel requires baptism (by proxy) after demonstrating Faith in Jesus Christ and Repentance.Since people in both halves of the Spirit World have the option of accepting the Gospel, it is reasonable (but not specifically noted in scripture) that those in Prison can move into Paradise; they meet the requirement of being repentant, just as any of us who has accepted the Gospel on earth (and who presumably will be in Paradise). Their sins will have been forgiven through the same baptism as ours. But baptism for those who are not in Prison is also effective. So, as I noted above, it is more than a get out of "Jail" free card only for those in Prison. Now, we might wonder if those who were once prisoners would become missionaries like the "faithful elders" President Joseph F. Smith saw. I think it possible, but not 100% so . Lehi
Joseph Antley Posted March 4, 2009 Posted March 4, 2009 Will there be spirits in Paradise who have not had the ordinance of baptism, either in mortality or vicariously?
BCSpace Posted March 5, 2009 Posted March 5, 2009 Others seem to believe an LDS baptism is requisite for admission to paradise. Seems this is a bum deal for those who have died without hearing the Gospel.Alma 40 and D&C 138 put that notion to rest.
Cold Steel Posted March 5, 2009 Posted March 5, 2009 Well, a prison is a holding place. One cannot progress in the spirit prison and relies on teachers and vicarious ordinances to move out of that place. Spirit prison is not hell, for that's a place of purging. It also is a place of holding, but also is a place where wicked spirits must come to grips with how their actions, thoughts and deeds brought them to ruin. I don't know, but I suspect that Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Nero, Mao, Pol Pot and so on will have to get to know their victims and the hurt they caused them. Those who claim to have experienced hell in NDEs say it's a place of complete and utter despair, horrendous sadness and horrible buffetings. Many Protestants think that if it's not eternal (in the sense that it lasts forever), then it's somehow mitigated. That the person gets off easy. Latter-day Saints believe anything God does works for the betterment of the soul, in essence, that even places like hell are remedial. There are those who actively place themselves beyond salvation, but they do it to themselves and they do it with their eyes wide open. Spirit prison is where the spirits went prior to the atonement of Christ. While His body lay in the tomb, He opened the doors of the spirit prison and the preaching of the gospel. Paradise is the realm of the spirits and was where the malefactor went following his death. Had he been a murderer, his spirit would have gone to hell, but we don't know what, if anything, he was guilty of. I don't think they would have crucified someone just for snatching an apple from a vendor, but he was good enough to end up in a place where he could be taught the gospel. It's a misconception that he inherited the Kingdom of God, because as Joseph Smith said, a person cannot be saved or damned in ignorance. If they sin against the light of Christ by shedding innocent blood, yes, but otherwise they can be redeemed. Having said that, we know that most people who have lived on Earth will end up in the Telestial Kingdom.
charity's child Posted March 5, 2009 Posted March 5, 2009 Personal belief - spirit prison is more a state of mind. And there are levels of spirit prison. The spirit who craves a drink he cannot have - that's prison. The spirit who has accepted the gospel but must wait until his work is done - that's a different sort of prison. The former is miserable and sees no relief. The latter, although impatient, sees hope ahead and doubtless is meanwhile engaged in useful work. And a completely different sort of prison is the individual who caused great harm during life and now truly feels the sorrow and pain he has created. So I do not think that those who died righteous but unbaptized are in prison in the same way those who died unrighteous. My personal opinion of paradise is it will be a place where there is good work to do and those who die righteous will all have their work as well and plenty of satisfaction.
jadams_4242 Posted March 5, 2009 Posted March 5, 2009 It just seemed that there contrasting positions among LDS on the subject. Just seems? Boy thats an understatement; Yes l.d.s do come up with quite a varity of interpritations on most things. i must agree. I think a lot of us say things we beleive to be fact when there is usually scripture that we are not aware of. {or something like that}
Mudcat Posted March 5, 2009 Author Posted March 5, 2009 Alma 40 and D&C 138 put that notion to rest.BC, Given that you seem to have thought about this a bit.... given the 6 posited categories in your original response. I would ask, out of the 6 categories, which do you think are in Paradise or SP?
Rob Osborn Posted March 5, 2009 Posted March 5, 2009 Having said that, we know that most people who have lived on Earth will end up in the Telestial Kingdom.Do we really "know"?Seems like speculation to me.
Cold Steel Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 Do we really "know" [if most people go to the Telestial Kingdom]?D&C 76:109-110: But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore; and heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever....
JDave Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 D&C 76:109-110: But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore; and heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever....Can this also refer to possibly many levels of glory within the Telestial Kingdom, just like there are many different brightnesses of the stars in the sky?Also is there any description of how many souls there will be in the other kingdoms? Are they not so innumerable? The only reference I know of is the statement that the strait and narrow path has few that find it. I don't know that that reference is specifically talking about entrance to the Celestial Kingdom, though.
Anijen Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 Personal belief - spirit prison is more a state of mind. And there are levels of spirit prison. The spirit who craves a drink he cannot have - that's prison. The spirit who has accepted the gospel but must wait until his work is done - that's a different sort of prison. The former is miserable and sees no relief. The latter, although impatient, sees hope ahead and doubtless is meanwhile engaged in useful work. And a completely different sort of prison is the individual who caused great harm during life and now truly feels the sorrow and pain he has created. So I do not think that those who died righteous but unbaptized are in prison in the same way those who died unrighteous. My personal opinion of paradise is it will be a place where there is good work to do and those who die righteous will all have their work as well and plenty of satisfaction.I like this reply.
Brenda Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 I've been taught that the ordinance of baptism is necessary to pass from spirit prison to paradise. Do others agree with this?Absolutely. Paradise: Accept Baptism through correct authority and keep your covenants.Prison/Hell: Everyone else.Yes, except that not everyone's experience in spirit prison will be the same. Your conscience and /or regrets will determine it. For the honest and good people who simply never had an opportunity to accept the gospel, their experience in prison will be much different than the blatant sinner. It's called prison because spirits will be bound there until they are released through baptism. All the more reason to do the temple work for our deceased ancestors.
Brenda Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 Personal belief - spirit prison is more a state of mind. And there are levels of spirit prison. The spirit who craves a drink he cannot have - that's prison. The spirit who has accepted the gospel but must wait until his work is done - that's a different sort of prison. The former is miserable and sees no relief. The latter, although impatient, sees hope ahead and doubtless is meanwhile engaged in useful work. And a completely different sort of prison is the individual who caused great harm during life and now truly feels the sorrow and pain he has created. So I do not think that those who died righteous but unbaptized are in prison in the same way those who died unrighteous. My personal opinion of paradise is it will be a place where there is good work to do and those who die righteous will all have their work as well and plenty of satisfaction.Well said. Remember, God is merciful and fair. Above all, he loves us.
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