Joseph Antley Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Recently I posted a blog about the early renditions of Oliver Cowdery's gift of Aaron", and how the original phrasing of the revelation was "working with the sprout" and his "thing of nature" (later changed to "working with the rod' and his "rod of nature"). When it came time for the D&C, this revelation was expanded and the phrase was changed to "the gift of Aaron". The revised revelation now found in D&C 8 makes several points:* The power of God caused the gift of Aaron to be with him.* Oliver would "hold it in [his] hands, and do marvelous works".* "No power [would] be able to take it away out of [his] hands".* Whatever Oliver asks "by that means", God will grant it unto him.I am assuming the "gift of Aaron" referred to a supernatural ability of Oliver's related to a "rod of nature", or a divining rod. If you want to contend that the revelation does not refer to a physical stick, please do so.But, if we can agree that that's what it was, how do you think he received revelation through it? It's almost as if the rod was Oliver's equivalent of Joseph's ability to use a seer stone, except that the way that it would work seems much less clear. With a seer stone, you ask something, and God shows you the answer in the stone. With a divining rod...exactly how do you think revelation was given?
bjw Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Recently I posted a blog about the early renditions of Oliver Cowdery's gift of Aaron", and how the original phrasing of the revelation was "working with the sprout" and his "thing of nature" (later changed to "working with the rod' and his "rod of nature"). When it came time for the D&C, this revelation was expanded and the phrase was changed to "the gift of Aaron". The revised revelation now found in D&C 8 makes several points:* The power of God caused the gift of Aaron to be with him.* Oliver would "hold it in [his] hands, and do marvelous works".* "No power [would] be able to take it away out of [his] hands".* Whatever Oliver asks "by that means", God will grant it unto him.I am assuming the "gift of Aaron" referred to a supernatural ability of Oliver's related to a "rod of nature", or a divining rod. If you want to contend that the revelation does not refer to a physical stick, please do so.But, if we can agree that that's what it was, how do you think he received revelation through it? It's almost as if the rod was Oliver's equivalent of Joseph's ability to use a seer stone, except that the way that it would work seems much less clear. With a seer stone, you ask something, and God shows you the answer in the stone. With a divining rod...exactly how do you think revelation was given?I believe it was probably done with a Ouija board type of set-up, with the rod moving over the letters to spell out words.It was probably changed to "Gift of Aaron" to reflect the Scriptural nature of the D&C, since Aaron and Oliver probably had the same type of gift and it makes it easier for the reader to compare the two.
Sargon Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 My understanding is that divining rods were used for locating water, or where to dig a well. It could also be used to find any number of other things. It might be akin to Lehi's family following the spindle on the Liahona.So, I imagine that whatever Oliver asks "by that means", God will grant it unto him. I'm not confident that it was a source for doctrinal knowledge.
erichard Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 .... With a divining rod...exactly how do you think revelation was given?Hi,There definitely seems to be people who can use witching rods to find the right place to dig wells for water. And I have known people who use pendulums to discern if foods are good for them-- and for other information.It just seems to be a gift for some folks. If you are interested, I have an idea how "casting lots" works. Richard
Joseph Antley Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 My understanding is that divining rods were used for locating water, or where to dig a well. It could also be used to find any number of other things. It might be akin to Lehi's family following the spindle on the Liahona.So, I imagine that whatever Oliver asks "by that means", God will grant it unto him. I'm not confident that it was a source for doctrinal knowledge.That's what I thought divining rods were used for too, but the expanded revelation says that after he asks "by that means", he would have "knowledge concerning it". Oliver is then instructed to "ask that you may know the mysteries of God", which sounds to me like doctrinal knowledge,
consiglieri Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 That's what I thought divining rods were used for too, but the expanded revelation says that after he asks "by that means", he would have "knowledge concerning it". Oliver is then instructed to "ask that you may know the mysteries of God", which sounds to me like doctrinal knowledge,Section 9 indicates that Oliver was able to commence translating by the rod, but was not able to continue.Something must have happened in order for him to get letters, words and/or phrases by its use.It is a good question you raise, and we may be encountering difficulty with the answer only because we are so far removed from the cultural milieu in which the use of the rod was better understood.I like the idea of a "Ouija Board" scenario, but that may be because it makes sense to me from my cultural milieu.All the Best!--Consiglieri
Sargon Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 That's what I thought divining rods were used for too, but the expanded revelation says that after he asks "by that means", he would have "knowledge concerning it". Oliver is then instructed to "ask that you may know the mysteries of God", which sounds to me like doctrinal knowledge,I see your point. Thanks.
Sevenbak Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Recently I posted a blog about the early renditions of Oliver Cowdery's gift of Aaron", and how the original phrasing of the revelation was "working with the sprout" and his "thing of nature" (later changed to "working with the rod' and his "rod of nature"). When it came time for the D&C, this revelation was expanded and the phrase was changed to "the gift of Aaron". The revised revelation now found in D&C 8 makes several points:* The power of God caused the gift of Aaron to be with him.* Oliver would "hold it in [his] hands, and do marvelous works".* "No power [would] be able to take it away out of [his] hands".* Whatever Oliver asks "by that means", God will grant it unto him.I am assuming the "gift of Aaron" referred to a supernatural ability of Oliver's related to a "rod of nature", or a divining rod. If you want to contend that the revelation does not refer to a physical stick, please do so.But, if we can agree that that's what it was, how do you think he received revelation through it? It's almost as if the rod was Oliver's equivalent of Joseph's ability to use a seer stone, except that the way that it would work seems much less clear. With a seer stone, you ask something, and God shows you the answer in the stone. With a divining rod...exactly how do you think revelation was given?I think any discussion about miraculous rods of any kind should include the OT prophets who used them to make pure and unspotted sheep and goats.
Areabird Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Shouldn't any discussion of divining rods be discussed in terms of superstition and folk magic? Just because the users of the rods thought they had power doesn't mean they really did.
LeSellers Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Shouldn't any discussion of divining rods be discussed in terms of superstition and folk magic? Just because the users of the rods thought they had power doesn't mean they really did.That's not the only alternative. 17And thou shalt take this rod in thine hand, wherewith thou shalt do signs.7 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.3 And thou shalt write Aaron's name upon the rod of Levi: for one rod shall be for the head of the house of their fathers.Apparently, God uses rods in His work with His prophets. (BTW, these are not the only references to rods in the Old Testament, and the New Testament confirms my last.) Lehi
Black Moclips Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 What is interesting is that its "okay" when it happened 180 years ago. Doesn't seem so weird. But someone walks into church today waving a branch and saying he can translate ancient unknown languages with, well, now it starts to get a little weird. Funny how all the miracluous, weird, and scientifically impossible stuff always happens when there is no way to verify or prove them. Isn't that weird?
Hamba Tuhan Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 What is interesting is that its "okay" when it happened 180 years ago. Doesn't seem so weird. But someone walks into church today waving a branch and saying he can translate ancient unknown languages with, well, now it starts to get a little weird. Funny how all the miracluous, weird, and scientifically impossible stuff always happens when there is no way to verify or prove them. Isn't that weird?You honestly don't have any miraculous, weird, or scientifically impossible stuff happening in your life??? Now that's weird.
Joseph Antley Posted February 19, 2009 Author Posted February 19, 2009 I think the translation using a rod would be most peculiar. I wonder if the plates were present and he actually touched them with the stick, or if somehow channeled the translation with the rod some other way.
Sargon Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 What is interesting is that its "okay" when it happened 180 years ago. Doesn't seem so weird. But someone walks into church today waving a branch and saying he can translate ancient unknown languages with, well, now it starts to get a little weird. Funny how all the miracluous, weird, and scientifically impossible stuff always happens when there is no way to verify or prove them. Isn't that weird?I suppose that folks in 1830 thought the same thing of people 180 years before them, and that people 180 years from now will think that some of the things we do are pretty strange. I don't see that this is a problem.
Hamba Tuhan Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 I suppose that folks in 1830 thought the same thing of people 180 years before them, and that people 180 years from now will think that some of the things we do are pretty strange. I don't see that this is a problem.Mate, we don't have to wait 180 years for people to think what we believe/do is strange. I went with the missionaries this evening to visit a member of our ward who was baptised about a year ago. She told us that she was with some of her girlfriends recently, and they asked her if she really believed all that crazy Mormon crap. She told them that yes, she did. She then admitted that she might be wrong, but she didn't care because it totally worked: She'd never been happier, and her life had changed completely for the better. She had gotten clear and specific answers to her prayers. Her basic nature had totally altered. You know, all that 'miracluous, weird, and scientifically impossible stuff.'
HiJolly Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 I thought it was the rod of AaronInfant! HiJolly
changed Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 I think there is a difference between "iron rod" and "wooden staff"I see parallels here:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.(Old Testament | Genesis 3:24)4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the bmercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.(New Testament | Hebrews 9:5)In both cases, cherubims guarding a "budding rod"To me, the tree of life is all about... "Wisdom" - if you know who I am talking about...18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.(Old Testament | Proverbs 3:18)Staff is one symbol of Her, as are trees etc... Have to be careful though, worshipping in groves (like touching the ark) is not something just anyone can do...33 And Abraham planted a agrove in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.(Old Testament | Genesis 21:33)(interesting to go back to the orig Hebrew on this particular verse)I think the staff is a big reason idolatry got started... StaffGen. 32:10 with my s. I passed over this JordanGen. 38:18 Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy s.Lev. 26:26 I have broken the s. of your breadJudg. 6:21 the angel ... put forth the end of the s.1 Sam. 17:7 (2 Sam. 21:19) s. of his spear was like a weaver's beam2 Kgs. 4:29 lay my s. upon the face of the childPs. 23:4 thy rod and thy s. they comfort mePs. 105:16 he brake the whole s. of breadIsa. 9:4 (2 Ne. 19:4) thou hast broken ... the s. of his shoulderIsa. 10:5 (2 Ne. 20:5) s. in their hand is mine indignationIsa. 14:5 (2 Ne. 24:5) Lord hath broken the s. of the wickedMark 6:8 take nothing ... save a s.Heb. 11:21 Jacob ... worshipped, leaning upon the top of his s.D&C 89:14 All grain is ordained ... to be the s. of life. - "staff of life" like "tree of life"(Topical Guide | S Staff:Entry)other random info:Rod. There are several meanings of rod in the scriptures. A shepherd's rod was a club approximately three feet long, with a knob on one end. It was used to beat wolves away from the herd. A staff, sometimes called a rod, is longer; it was used for walking, resting, or for guiding the sheep, as in Lev. 27:32; Ps. 23:4. Moses' and Aaron's rods represented authority, as in Ex. 4:1–5; 7:9–12, 17. A rod was also used for punishing a wayward child, as in Prov. 13:24; 22:15; or to whip a supposed offender, as in 2 Cor. 11:25 and Matt. 27:26. A measuring rod was about 10 feet, 10 inches (330 cm.) long and was used to determine distances (see Ezek. 40:3). Isa. 11:1 speaks of a rod (Hebrew Khoter—a twig or shoot), which has been identified in latter-day revelation as a prophet of the restoration (D&C 113).(Bible Dictionary | R Rod:Entry) RodGen. 30:37 Jacob took him r.Ex. 4:20 Moses took the r. of God in his handEx. 7:10 Aaron cast down his r. before PharaohLev. 27:32 whatsoever passeth under the r., the tenth shall be holyNum. 17:2 take of every one of them a r.Num. 17:8 (Heb. 9:4) r. of Aaron for the house of Levi was buddedPs. 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a r. of ironPs. 23:4 thy r. and thy staff they comfort mePs. 89:32 then will I visit their transgression with the r.Ps. 110:2 Lord shall send the r. of thy strength out of ZionProv. 13:24 He that spareth his r. hateth his sonProv. 22:15 r. of correction shall drive it far from himProv. 26:3 r. for the fool's backProv. 29:15 r. and reproof give wisdomIsa. 9:4 (2 Ne. 19:4) r. of his oppressor, as in the day of MidianIsa. 10:26 (2 Ne. 20:26) his r. was upon the seaIsa. 11:1 (2 Ne. 21:1; D&C 113:3) come forth a r. out of the stem of JesseIsa. 11:4 (2 Ne. 21:4; 30:9) smite the earth with the r. of his mouthEzek. 20:37 I will cause you to pass under the r.2 Cor. 11:25 thrice was I beaten with r.Rev. 2:27 (12:5; 19:15) he shall rule them with a r. of iron1 Ne. 8:19 I beheld a r. of iron1 Ne. 11:25 (15:23) r. of iron ... was the word of God1 Ne. 17:41 he did straiten them with his r.2 Ne. 3:17 I will give power unto him in a r.D&C 19:15 repent, lest I smite you by the r. of my mouth.(Topical Guide | R Rod:Entry)19 And I beheld a arod of iron, and it extended along the bank of the river, and led to the tree by which I stood.(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 8:19)quite a pair - the "rod of iron" and the beautiful tree....
Joseph Antley Posted February 19, 2009 Author Posted February 19, 2009 I don't think Oliver's divining stick had anything to do with the Book of Mormon's "rod of iron".
The Nehor Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 I was told by a CES guy that according to journal entries the rod of Aaron was in the Smith household at what point and was later given to Oliver. If Oliver had remained faithful we might have had more sea-splitting action in the early days of the Church.
Christian Mormon Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 That's not the only alternative. Apparently, God uses rods in His work with His prophets. (BTW, these are not the only references to rods in the Old Testament, and the New Testament confirms my last.)i would like your list....thxI think any discussion about miraculous rods of any kind should include the OT prophets who used them to make pure and unspotted sheep and goats.do you have that scripture?thx
The Nehor Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 do you have that scripture?thxGenesis 30:37-39
JAHS Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 An interesting notation in Anthon H. Lund's Journal for July 5,1901 states: "in the revelation to Oliver Cowdery in May 1829, Bro. [b. H.] Roberts said that the gift which the Lord says he has in his hand meant a stick which was like Aaron's Rod. It is said Bro. Phineas Young [brother-in-law of Oliver Cowdery and brother of Brigham Young] got it from him [Cowdery] and gave it to President Young who had it with him when he arrived in this [salt Lake] valley and that it was with that stick that he pointed out where the Temple should be built."
Black Moclips Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 You honestly don't have any miraculous, weird, or scientifically impossible stuff happening in your life??? Now that's weird.Nope, I've never seen or witnessed a miracle or anything scientifically impossible. In fact, I have no good reason or evidence (spiritually or temporally) to believe anything about the church, even though I've lived all my life as a member and have done everything I was supposed to do.
Joseph Antley Posted February 19, 2009 Author Posted February 19, 2009 even though I've lived all my life as a member and have done everything I was supposed to do.Maybe that's your problem. You should've messed up a little like the rest of us.
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