Did Moroni Have A Spiritual Body Or A Physical Body?

[BCSpace]

As per Ether 3:16, a spirit body can touch and affect things that are physical.

[jadams_4242]

That sounds contradictory to Moroni having them in his charge to this day, don't you think?

Not a bit, Moroni had them in his charge when he showed J.S where they were buried; I;E he "delivered" them to Joseph; Then Joseph delivered them back to Moroni.

[Anijen]

As per Ether 3:16, a spirit body can touch and affect things that are physical.

Hmm interesting. I think we are now comparing apples to oranges though, I mean Christ and other helpers created the world from matter did they touch it to do so? I dunno. Jesus touching (before he had a physical body) the stones for light in the Jaradite barges is interesting but like I said before apples and oranges. Perhaps being touched by the Savior will enlighten us all (as I think it does) and this makes a wonderful subplot of this story and adds a whole new depth of pondering.

As I think of it, it is not like our spirit bodies cant touch things they can but the spirit matter is so finite that if a human touched a non resurrected angel it would appear to that person that their is no hand there and therefore they would not because the human would perceive it as deception...

plus the savior did say "...handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones..." I understand this as a spirit you would not be able to handle.

BCSpace you have made me think (always a good thing)

Charity Anijen

[jadams_4242]

That sounds contradictory to Moroni having them in his charge to this day, don't you think?

After J.s first saw the plates; he waw instructed to not take them until four years had passed e.t.c.... after four more visitations at the burial site with the angel Moroni; {J.S history of;1-59...} "Having gone to the place where they were deposited, the same heavenly messanger "delivered" them up to me" The angel Moroni did not deliver them "up" to J.S, as we would think "up". Just as J.S did not deliver them back "up" to Moroni person to person; he "re" deposited them; the word "delivered" is being greatly missunderstood. I;E.. Moroni "delivered" them to me; Then I "delivered" them back to the angel Moroni. {I stand by my understanding}.

[annewandering]

Well...you didn't specify the quality of answer you wanted.

He is ABSOLUTELY right! is that better? of course i dont really remember either although i do seem to recall something to that effect. but hey there is the confident statement you wanted!!

[Mudcat]

As per Ether 3:16, a spirit body can touch and affect things that are physical.

Hi BC,

We could also assume that a spirit, being able to speak and deliver audible sound to a physical being, had tangible vocal chords which produced that sound and seems supportive of your sentiment.

I am assuming you are supportive of the concept of a spiritually resurrected, but physically unresurrected Moroni, have I got that right?

Mudcat

[annewandering]

I think the general consensus is that Moroni was a resurrected, rather than a translated, being.

Joseph Smith taught as much. Joseph Smith, jr., ed., The Elders Journal (Far West, Missouri: 1838) I, 3 (July, 1838):42-3 (available online here) (emphasis added):

I suppose it's possible that Joseph was wrong, that the Moroni had been translated instead.

But I doubt it.

-Smac

it is true we dont actually have scriptural evidence that he did die. all we know is he thought he was going to die. he could well have been translated instead of dying. except that joseph said moroni was resurrected.

[Mudcat]

After J.s first saw the plates; he waw instructed to not take them until four years had passed e.t.c.... after four more visitations at the burial site with the angel Moroni; {J.S history of;1-59...} "Having gone to the place where they were deposited, the same heavenly messanger "delivered" them up to me" The angel Moroni did not deliver them "up" to J.S, as we would think "up". Just as J.S did not deliver them back "up" to Moroni person to person; he "re" deposited them; the word "delivered" is being greatly missunderstood. I;E.. Moroni "delivered" them to me; Then I "delivered" them back to the angel Moroni. {I stand by my understanding}.

J,If what you are saying is true. Then can I assume you believe these plates rest in "Hill Cumorah"?If so, why have they not been rediscovererd?Mudcat

He is ABSOLUTELY right!

CFR

is that better? of course i dont really remember either although i do seem to recall something to that effect. but hey there is the confident statement you wanted!!

just kidding

[Sevenbak]

This has always been my understanding. But I admit, I am at a loss as to say when he would have been resurrected, as it has also been my understanding that people who lived and died after Christ's mortal ministry dwell in the spirit world to await resurrection attendant to his Second Coming.

Not necessarily everyone. Peter James and John must have been resurrected also in order to physically ordain Joseph and Oliver to the Priesthood. Like other things that sometime pop up in the Church in practical terms, we live by the rules and deal with the exceptions. ;-)

[Sevenbak]

Thanks 7bak.

I suppose I find the concept of his resurrection interesting. Apostle Petersen seems to confirm that he had a physical body. I am now wondering what/if any documentation discusses his resurrection?

Again thanks.

Mudcat

That's a good question. I bet someone has found it already.

[Sevenbak]

it is true we dont actually have scriptural evidence that he did die. all we know is he thought he was going to die. he could well have been translated instead of dying. except that joseph said moroni was resurrected.

That's an interesting point. Ether states at the end of his record he didn't know if he would be translated or otherwise... Both men were in similar situations. But I still think he was resurrected based on apostolic utterances.

[Cold Steel]

Yep, the first resurrection is in full swing. Peter and James were resurrected, but not John. John will remain, working with other translated beings, until the return of Christ on the Mount of Olives. Elijah, on the other hand, fulfilled his role by restoring various priesthood keys during the transfiguration on the mount, so he, too, is resurrected. Joseph Smith had many visitations with others who were resurrected, including Peter, Paul, Nephi and so forth.

Even if Moroni hadn't been resurrected, he still most likely could have taken charge of the plates. There are numerous accounts of spirits picking up things. One I know of allegedly picked up a person's ring, then walked into a closet, closing the door behind him. This was in a hotel and, even after a careful search of the closet, the ring was never found. All substance is matter, even spirit. That it's more refined doesn't seem to matter. Spirits have been known to tickle feet and tap people on the shoulder. It most likely takes some energy to do this, but it happens, or so I understand.

I suspect that some spirits have been eating my Halloween candy, which disappears a little each day.

[alter idem]

I found something important in the preface to the Book of Mormon which states that Moroni was a resurrected being. So, I'd say it's pretty definitive he was resurrected and not translated. As I was thinking about it, I remembered that Joseph had many visitations--some beings were translated and others had been resurrected. Therefore, it seems plausible that Joseph may have observed differences in the two states and was able to conclude that Moroni had been resurrected.

[ttribe]

That's what I call a confident answer.

Okay, here's something: Link

[alter idem]

Okay, here's something: Link

Yes, this is what I was referring to in my last post.

[ttribe]

Yes, this is what I was referring to in my last post.

Yeah, I know, I just thought I'd use the opportunity to show Mudcat I really can come up with a supported answer for once

[Scott Lloyd]

That sounds contradictory to Moroni having them in his charge to this day, don't you think?

Having something in your charge doesn't mean you carry it around on your person constantly. It means you have custody of that thing.

[ttribe]

Having something in your charge doesn't mean you carry it around on your person constantly. It means you have custody of that thing.

But re-buried? I'm not so sure about that idea.

[sean0scott]

I read once that Joseph and somebody were riding in a cart, they came along a man walking down the road and stopped to talk to him. It was a warm day, and as the stranger spoke to them he wiped sweat from his brow. As Joseph and the other man (whose name I wish I could remember) drove away, the other man asked Joseph if he had known the stranger. Joseph told him it was Moroni.

To me the extremely interesting part was the wiping of sweat.

Does anybody know where I read this?

I've searched quite a bit, and can't seem to find the source.

Help?

[BCSpace]

As per Ether 3:16, a spirit body can touch and affect things that are physical.

Hi BC,

We could also assume that a spirit, being able to speak and deliver audible sound to a physical being, had tangible vocal chords which produced that sound and seems supportive of your sentiment.

I am assuming you are supportive of the concept of a spiritually resurrected, but physically unresurrected Moroni, have I got that right?

The Moroni case is easy as since he was after Christ, he could've been translated (like the Three Nephites), or he could've tasted death and been resurrected. The real question is what about those visiting Adam in the garden? They weren't born yet so they couldn't have had physical bodies to translate nor could they have been resurected. So is the depiction in the temple metaphorical? Is it literal but the interaction is metaphorical? Can spirits interact with physcial bodies in terms of being able to touch them?

I have not formulated an opinion on this yet. But I'm quite sure that there are those, hungry for something to latch onto against the Church (there not being anything at all in all of history to latch onto as of yet) who are currently straining at a gnat.

[Jason]

Satan also interacts with regular matter during the temple account, and we know he doesn't have a physical body.

[Scott Lloyd]

But re-buried? I'm not so sure about that idea.

Just pointing out that having them "in his charge" could entail depositing them in some secure place, be it in the ground or elsewhere.

[jkfrost]

Satan also interacts with regular matter during the temple account, and we know he doesn't have a physical body.

hmmm like the movie Ghost and the penny.

BTW - is that part of the script ( breaking off a branch for instance )

You know there were two differing versions of how he reacted?

Did both pick the apple?

The question is are translated beings needed for transfer of keys?