Evangelicals Adopt Mormon Doctrine

[consiglieri]

I was listening to an evangelical preacher on the radio last Sunday when he brought up what is becoming a more and more familiar theme--that although everybody who accepts Jesus is saved and will go to heaven; there are different rewards that will be meted out to them according to their works here on earth.

Those who more closely follow Jesus' example will received greater rewards and those who are less circumspect will receive fewer.

Precisely what those heavenly "rewards" will consist of is left vague and undefined.

I confess that with the evangelical evolution of thought in this regard, I am having a harder and harder time distinguishing contemporary evangelical belief from what the Mormons have been preaching for over 170-years.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Calm]

"there are different rewards that will be meted out to them according to their works here on earth"

I have heard this for a long time though I can't point to any authoritative writing on the subject. The EVs I've talked to about it point to the "many mansions" scripture theme for support. I'm not sure why you think this is new.

[Hoops22]

It's not new. The divide is as wide as ever.

[cksalmon]

I was listening to an evangelical preacher on the radio last Sunday when he brought up what is becoming a more and more familiar theme--that although everybody who accepts Jesus is saved and will go to heaven; there are different rewards that will be meted out to them according to their works here on earth.

Those who more closely follow Jesus' example will received greater rewards and those who are less circumspect will receive fewer.

Precisely what those heavenly "rewards" will consist of is left vague and undefined.

I confess that with the evangelical evolution of thought in this regard, I am having a harder and harder time distinguishing contemporary evangelical belief from what the Mormons have been preaching for over 170-years.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I've heard this all my life, Consig. Whether or not it is true remains to be seen. Proponents of this view have historically cited the Bible as their evidence. It's hardly a recent evolution in traditional Christian thought.

Best to you this evening.

cks

[annewandering]

if, as others are saying, this has always been evangelicals stand, then why the fuss over works being, not being, important?

[consiglieri]

It's not new. The divide is as wide as ever.

Perhaps it is just something I have recently heard, then.

But if evangelicals say that those who accept Jesus as their Savior will receive different rewards based upon their works, and if Mormons say that those who accept Jesus as their Savior will receive different rewards based upon their works, I am not sure what all the "grace-versus-works" debate has been about.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[juliann]

I remember when there used to be nothing but derision over LDS belief in deification. When it could no longer be denied that it was a central tenet of early Christianity and even mainstream scholarship began emphasizing it...suddenly the refrain was "well, we believe in it, too". I have seen an increasing amount of articles placing new emphasis on works as part of religion in general.

There isn't much talk about this either....but this will be the next crack that will have to be filled with "well, we believe it, too".

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...ed-cnn-%20world

Wright: It's more exciting than hanging around listening to nice music. In Revelation and Paul's letters we are told that God's people will actually be running the new world on God's behalf. The idea of our participation in the new creation goes back to Genesis, when humans are supposed to be running the Garden and looking after the animals. If you transpose that all the way through, it's a picture like the one that you get at the end of Revelation . . .But the end of Revelation describes a marvelous human participation in God's plan. And in almost all cases, when I've explained this to people, there's a sense of excitement and a sense of, "Why haven't we been told this before?" .

[SteubieU]

I remember when there used to be nothing but derision over LDS belief in deification. When it could no longer be denied that it was a central tenet of early Christianity and even mainstream scholarship began emphasizing it...suddenly the refrain was "well, we believe in it, too". I have seen an increasing amount of articles placing new emphasis on works as part of religion in general.

There isn't much talk about this either....but this will be the next crack that will have to be filled with "well, we believe it, too".

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...ed-cnn-%20world

This is something that the Catholic Church has ALWAYS believed.... LONG before the LDS Church existed. Of course it was a central tenent of early Christianity.

By the way, I love the way that everything fits so nicely in the LDS puzzle: if it is similar to the LDS belief, it is evidence that the LDS Church is the same church. If it is different from LDS belief (Baptism, the Eucharist, the Saints, the Mass, etc.) it is proof that the apostasy was happening. How convenient.

[jadams_4242]

It's not new. The divide is as wide as ever.

And what is your understanding on this subject if its been well known for a long time?

[juliann]

This is something that the Catholic Church has ALWAYS believed.... LONG before the LDS Church existed. Of course it was a central tenent of early Christianity.

By the way, I love the way that everything fits so nicely in the LDS puzzle: if it is similar to the LDS belief, it is evidence that the LDS Church is the same church. If it is different from LDS belief (Baptism, the Eucharist, the Saints, the Mass, etc.) it is proof that the apostasy was happening. How convenient.

Well...that is kind of how it works with everyone isn't it? If we didn't think we could lay claim to the church Christ instituted we would be finding a religion that we thought could. Catholics and Orthodox do have the best claim on maintaining deification. It is the evangelicals who denied it and now claim it. (Catholics don't usually stalk us and tell us we are going to hell like the EVs like to)

[T-Shirt]

I've been pointing this out for years, but no one really wants to recognize the similarity of beliefs. It goes something like this:

Evangelicals believe:

A - We are saved by grace.

B - Those who are saved receive different rewards in heaven, based on their works.

Latter-day Saints believe:

A - We are saved by grace.

B - Those who are saved receive different rewards in different kingdoms in heaven, based on their works.

Hoops seems to think the divide is as wide as ever. I don't see it.

Best,

T-Shirt

[Mudcat]

Perhaps it is just something I have recently heard, then.

But if evangelicals say that those who accept Jesus as their Savior will receive different rewards based upon their works, and if Mormons say that those who accept Jesus as their Savior will receive different rewards based upon their works, I am not sure what all the "grace-versus-works" debate has been about.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You said it better than I could have.

edit add -

Hopefully my Evangelical comment of support won't implicate you in the "Great Apostasy Part II".

[abqfriend]

There is a difference between being "saved" and works.

Sola Gratia-Saved by Grace alone-or justification by Grace alone means just that.

Evangelicals believe nothing has to do with entering heaven--but Grace-free Grace and being justified by faith alone. This is the hallmark of the Reformation.

Evangelicals have no Celestial Kingdom. They just have heaven and hell.

There is no Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist or Presbyterian heaven either-heaven is just heaven.

Evangelicals believe-

Works do not save someone in any way-or get them to a higher station/place in heaven.

What you have heard is centuries old-and goes back to the Reformation-and many would argue-goes back to the early church.

Evangelicals have a different view of The Savior than LDS members.

Many other differences in theology exist also.

Evangelicals are apostates in the eyes of the LDS and LDS are heretics in the eyes of the evangelicals-so differences exist.

-Carol -a Catholic

Perhaps it is just something I have recently heard, then.

But if evangelicals say that those who accept Jesus as their Savior will receive different rewards based upon their works, and if Mormons say that those who accept Jesus as their Savior will receive different rewards based upon their works, I am not sure what all the "grace-versus-works" debate has been about.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Phinehas]

Perhaps it is just something I have recently heard, then.

But if evangelicals say that those who accept Jesus as their Savior will receive different rewards based upon their works, and if Mormons say that those who accept Jesus as their Savior will receive different rewards based upon their works, I am not sure what all the "grace-versus-works" debate has been about.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Salvation vs Exaltation

Mormonism says, Salvation is the resurrection. Exaltation requires works. I.E. Mormon baptism, temple endowments, married for eternity and some say plural marriage.

EV say Salvation IS Exaltation with no works required.

Now rewards are given according to our (spiritual) works (crowns in the bible)

Works of the flesh will be burned up

[Billy]

Evangelicals believe:

A - We are saved by grace.

B - Those who are saved receive different rewards in heaven, based on their works.

Latter-day Saints believe:

A - We are saved by grace.

B - Those who are saved receive different rewards in different kingdoms in heaven, based on their works.

Saved by grace in EV speak means going to heaven and living with God.

Saved by grace (from your example above) does not necessarily mean living with God again because you mention the different kingdoms. Is this correct that you can be saved by grace and end up in the Telestial kingdom and NOT live with God again?

Also in Mosiah verse below if you are evil you will be in the "resurrection of endless damnation".

Is this one of the possibilities when you say you are saved by grace, i.e. endless damnation?

Mosiah 16: 11" If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation"

Maybe you can elaborate what you mean by "saved by grace". Also, why did you leave off the important stipulation--"after all you can do"?

[BCSpace]

Also in Mosiah verse below if you are evil you will be in the "resurrection of endless damnation".

Is this one of the possibilities when you say you are saved by grace, i.e. endless damnation?

Mosiah 16: 11" If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation"

That is correct. But in trying to interpret LDS doctrine for your own ends, you have left off D&C 19:10-17. It's analogous to the Biblical "eternal life" which, btw, is not speaking of simply living forever.

Maybe you can elaborate what you mean by "saved by grace". Also, why did you leave off the important stipulation--"after all you can do"?

Grace is the free gift, the operation that saves. How much grace gets applied to you depends on what requirements for salvation you meet. Quite a few of these requirements for salvation are listed in the NT.

[Billy]

Grace is the free gift, the operation that saves.

Does EVERYBODY on earth get saved by grace no-matter what?

[BCSpace]

Grace is the free gift, the operation that saves.

Does EVERYBODY on earth get saved by grace no-matter what?

In so far as they meet the requirements for salvation and don't commit the unpardonable sin, yes.

[Billy]

In so far as they meet the requirements for salvation and don't commit the unpardonable sin, yes.

So Hitler is saved by grace?

[BCSpace]

In so far as they meet the requirements for salvation and don't commit the unpardonable sin, yes.

So Hitler is saved by grace?

What requirements for salvation has he met?

[Billy]

What requirements for salvation has he met?

According to LDS?

He kept his first estate.

"Every person who has lived on the earth will be resurrected with perfected corporeal bodies, and those who have kept the commandments will enter into eternal life, and "have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever" (Abr. 3:26)

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Second_Estate

The quote above does not mention sons of perdition, but Hitler does not qualify for this one.

[revelation]

I've been pointing this out for years, but no one really wants to recognize the similarity of beliefs. It goes something like this:

Evangelicals believe:

A - We are saved by grace.

B - Those who are saved receive different rewards in heaven, based on their works.

Latter-day Saints believe:

A - We are saved by grace.

B - Those who are saved receive different rewards in different kingdoms in heaven, based on their works.

Hoops seems to think the divide is as wide as ever. I don't see it.

Best,

T-Shirt

Here is the difference by analogy:

Mormonism:

A family decides to tentatively adopt you but you can't come and live in their house until you first obey all that they ask of you. They want to test you to see how good you are first. If you obey, your reward is: entrance into the home and then in return, the love of the parents that live in that home.

Evangelical teaching:

A family decides to adopt you and welcomes you into their home just because they wanted to shower you with their unconditional love. Once you are made a permanent member of the family, they then promise a reward to you based on the good things you do. But they loved you from the moment you were adopted and welcomed into the family and home. That was "before" you did anything that might be rewarded.

[BCSpace]

What requirements for salvation has he met?

According to LDS?

He kept his first estate.

"Every person who has lived on the earth will be resurrected with perfected corporeal bodies, and those who have kept the commandments will enter into eternal life, and "have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever" (Abr. 3:26)

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Second_Estate

The quote above does not mention sons of perdition, but Hitler does not qualify for this one.

So what sins besides the unpardonable sin did Jesus not Atone for?

[Billy]

So what sins besides the unpardonable sin did Jesus not Atone for?

The right answer is none. But looking at it from LDS viewpoint, I think that you have to include Murder as well, hence the doctrine of Blood Atonement. The murderer "shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come" (D&C 42:18). http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Murder

[Noah]

Salvation vs Exaltation

Mormonism says, Salvation is the resurrection. Exaltation requires works. I.E. Mormon baptism, temple endowments, married for eternity and some say plural marriage.

EV say Salvation IS Exaltation with no works required.

Now rewards are given according to our (spiritual) works (crowns in the bible)

Works of the flesh will be burned up

I've heard Mormons say that; I'm not familiar with its origin (although it generally needs to come from the 1st Presidency or the Twelve to carry any weight), but that's certainly not the message of the Book of Mormon--although it could be based on an incorrect interpretation of it, I suppose.

None of us can self-exalt; therefore, we are exalted by grace, period, which I hope puts the whole "Exaltation by works" thing to rest. To argue that Exaltation can be earned is really quite ignorant. Those who love their neighbor, forsake the world, care for the poor, repent of their sins, etc., WILL BE EXALTED.

You can hardly call temple ordinances the "works" that ensure your Exaltation...especially given the fact that they can be done on your behalf, assuming you're deceased. Not only that, but we'll have a 1000 year window to make sure the entire human family is attended to.

Works are a measure of your faith; faith shows your trust and commitment to Christ. Christ is the means towards Exaltation, and there is no other; those who fall short of Exaltation are those who rejected or squandered the gifts of God through disobedience and pride. Latter-day Saints who think otherwise, I invite you to take a more holistic approach to the scriptures, rather than plucking out single verses from the standard works without considering their broader context.

We are saved by grace, through covenant, according to our faith. 'Covenant' is the key word here, of course, and works are the unavoidable fruits of faith (people forget that faith has a dual meaning, which is 'trust' and 'commitment', which interestingly ties back to 'covenant' once again). Works earn you nothing; they're done merely out of gratitude and duty for the gift you've already been promised. Thus, it is fair to say you have been saved when asked, though the condition remains 'as long as I remain faithful'.