Evangelicals Adopt Mormon Doctrine

[BCSpace]

So what sins besides the unpardonable sin did Jesus not Atone for?

The right answer is none. But looking at it from LDS viewpoint, I think that you have to include Murder as well, hence the doctrine of Blood Atonement. The murderer "shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come" (D&C 42:18).

By this logic, EVs have the same viewpoint according to 1 John 3:15.

Additionally, you have not accounted for all verses in determining LDS doctrine for yourself. Pay close attention to D&C 76:34-38.

You seem to be stuck....

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Murder

P.S. Not a doctrinal work by definition, not being published by the Church.

[Notquitewetyet]

Here is the difference by analogy:

Mormonism:

A family decides to tentatively adopt you but you can't come and live in their house until you first obey all that they ask of you. They want to test you to see how good you are first. If you obey, your reward is: entrance into the home and then in return, the love of the parents that live in that home.

Let's continue the analogy:

And if you decide that you don't want to be a good son or daughter, the parents will kindly go out of their way to make sure that there is a home waiting for you that is suited to your needs.

Evangelical teaching:

A family decides to adopt you and welcomes you into their home just because they wanted to shower you with their unconditional love. Once you are made a permanent member of the family, they then promise a reward to you based on the good things you do. But they loved you from the moment you were adopted and welcomed into the family and home. That was "before" you did anything that might be rewarded.

However, if the family does not decide to adopt you, they're going to take you to the furnace in their basement and ensure that you are roasted alive forever and ever.

[MormonMason]

...

Also, why did you leave off the important stipulation--"after all you can do"?

Probably because that phrase is found in the portion of the Book of Mormon when the Law of Moses still held sway? Think about it.

On the other hand, think about the similar phraseology found in Ephesians 6 ("having done all, to stand").

[Mudcat]

Anyone,

Just a thought. But would any think there might be a reverse to this situation.

Mormons adopting Evangelical doctrine.

I suppose my premise would be a movement in some of the LDS, at least on this board and perhaps Robinson, among others.

This movement seems to support an alternate interpretation of "after all that we can do" to "in spite of all we can do".

This IMO, seems much more consistent with Evangelical thought on the matter.

What do you think?

Mudcat

[Mars]

From my experience, once an EV and a Mormon find out what the other means by the words they say, they find they agree more than disagree.

[thesometimesaint]

Mudcat:

Fine with me. One of features that really attracted me to Mormonism is that we accept the Truth wherever it is found.

In your specific example however I think there are subtle differences in understanding that may preclude fast agreement.

[revelation]

Let's continue the analogy:

And if you decide that you don't want to be a good son or daughter, the parents will kindly go out of their way to make sure that there is a home waiting for you that is suited to your needs.

...so they won't love you until you first love them. They decide to adopt you only if your first good.

However, if the family does not decide to adopt you, they're going to take you to the furnace in their basement and ensure that you are roasted alive forever and ever.

This is incorrect. The family has already adopted us. There is no decision left to be made. They adopted us based on our value as a person rather than based on our performance to pleasing them first. Those who run away from being freely adopted in this way and choose instead to try to earn the parents favor by being good are the one's who choose themselves to be "roasted alive forever and ever" For they failed to take the free gift that was given to them.

[Notquitewetyet]

This is incorrect. The family has already adopted us. There is no decision left to be made. They adopted us based on our value as a person rather than based on our performance to pleasing them first. Those who run away from being freely adopted in this way and choose instead to try to earn the parents favor by being good are the one's who choose themselves to be "roasted alive forever and ever" For they failed to take the free gift that was given to them.

Oh come on. You're trying to make it appear like a white-or-black, day-or-night choice. Many people live good lives, they just don't exercise enough faith to come to a knowledge of all things. Don't make it appear like a choice. Defend your doctrines in the most heinous and consistent manner possible by being a double-predestination Calvinist, where God has created people for the sole purpose of eternal torture, but don't expect us to ever view any god who punishes with no hope of reform ever "loving."

[revelation]

Oh come on. You're trying to make it appear like a white-or-black, day-or-night choice. Many people live good lives, they just don't exercise enough faith to come to a knowledge of all things. Don't make it appear like a choice. Defend your doctrines in the most heinous and consistent manner possible by being a double-predestination Calvinist, where God has created people for the sole purpose of eternal torture, but don't expect us to ever view any god who punishes with no hope of reform ever "loving."

Why would I defend calvinism when I am a Lutheran and Lutherans don't believe in Calvinism? God clearly doesn't predestine some to damnation as Calvinism teaches. The Bible teaches that God wants ALL men to come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4

That would be like my lumping you together with the RLDS. Is that prefferable to you? Or with the Mormons who still practice polygamy?

While some in evangelicalism believe in Calvanism, not all do. Keep that in mind and remember that just as you don't want to be lumped together with some offshoot of the LDS Church, so also you should know who you are speaking with and what "denomination" they are instead of lumping them all together. Even within Lutheranism, not all Lutherans agree on all doctrine so you can't lump them all together either. For your information, I am a WELS Lutheran.

[Hoops22]

where God has created people for the sole purpose of eternal torture, but don't expect us to ever view any god who punishes with no hope of reform ever "loving."

Your representation of Calvinism has been refuted many times, yet you continue. Why?

I have only one recourse but to conclude that this is on purpose. To what end?

[Notquitewetyet]

Your representation of Calvinism has been refuted many times, yet you continue. Why?I have only one recourse but to conclude that this is on purpose. To what end?

Your representation of Mormonism has been refuted many times, yet you continue. Why?I have only one recourse but to conclude that this is on purpose. To what end?

Why would I defend calvinism when I am a Lutheran and Lutherans don't believe in Calvinism? God clearly doesn't predestine some to damnation as Calvinism teaches. The Bible teaches that God wants ALL men to come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4That would be like my lumping you together with the RLDS. Is that prefferable to you? Or with the Mormons who still practice polygamy?While some in evangelicalism believe in Calvanism, not all do. Keep that in mind and remember that just as you don't want to be lumped together with some offshoot of the LDS Church, so also you should know who you are speaking with and what "denomination" they are instead of lumping them all together. Even within Lutheranism, not all Lutherans agree on all doctrine so you can't lump them all together either. For your information, I am a WELS Lutheran.

No matter what denomination you belong to, your belief in endless and eternal torture makes Polpot, Stalin, and Jeffrey Dahmer seem like friendly chaps compared to your god.

[revelation]

Notquitewetyet

No matter what denomination you belong to, your belief in endless and eternal torture makes Polpot, Stalin, and Jeffrey Dahmer seem like friendly chaps compared to your god.

Actually, that is incorrect. What is Hell? That should be the question. Hell is the absence of God.

God is love, God showers blessings on all people, God showers forgiveness on all people, God is light, God is peace, God is truth etc. With God their are no tears, fears, pain, death etc.

Hell will be void of all these things because Hell is the absence of God.

Next point. All Mankind deserve to go to Hell because of their sins, but God has forgiven us for all our sins. Mankind that rejects the free forgiveness that is credited to their account reject God by their own choice. Either they love sin or they would rather try to get into heaven by their own worthiness. The Bible teaches that no one is or will be worthy and those who think they can become worthy or must become worthy, are liars. Liars will not recieve eternal life. So God only gives them what they wanted all along and that is the freedom to spend eternity seperate from him. The fact that Hell is eternal torture is simply because God is not there.

[Brade]

I don't know that I agree with the adoption/home analogy. My understanding, as a Mormon, is that salvation is just being saved from whatever it's like to be outside the organized kingdom of God. In that sense, being saved just means not being in outer darkness. And, in that sense, I believe just about everyone is saved. So, to me it looks more like this.

Mormonism

A family adopts you and lets you live in their house. You may not have the biggest room, but hey, you've got a nice roof over your head. If you behave, or have behaved, you get a car.

EV

A family adopts you and lets you live in their house. You may not have the biggest room, but hey, you've got a nice roof over your head. If you behave, or have behaved, you get a car.

Setting aside the particulars of ordinances and the names we call things (salvation vs exaltation) I don't thing we're really saying anything all that different. Also, for what it's worth, I listen to a lot of christian talk radio and have often heard non-LDS preachers speak in terms of getting greater rewards in heaven proportional to one's "work." I believe we are most certainly saved by grace. It's our works that get us different rewards in heaven.

[Pahoran]

Your representation of Calvinism has been refuted many times, yet you continue. Why?

Well tell me, Hoops; what exactly did NQWY get wrong?

Just what, in Calvinist thought, is God's purpose in choosing to create the non-elect, if not for them to "enjoy" an eternity of torture?

And to tell each other, "well, we deserve it, because we acted exactly according to the fallen natures God gave us, so our punishment is just?"

Well?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Hoops22]

Your representation of Mormonism has been refuted many times, yet you continue. Why?I have only one recourse but to conclude that this is on purpose. To what end?No matter what denomination you belong to, your belief in endless and eternal torture makes Polpot, Stalin, and Jeffrey Dahmer seem like friendly chaps compared to your god.

I have your representation of Calvinism to point to, what do you have?

[LifeOnaPlate]

This is something that the Catholic Church has ALWAYS believed.... LONG before the LDS Church existed. Of course it was a central tenent of early Christianity.

By the way, I love the way that everything fits so nicely in the LDS puzzle: if it is similar to the LDS belief, it is evidence that the LDS Church is the same church. If it is different from LDS belief (Baptism, the Eucharist, the Saints, the Mass, etc.) it is proof that the apostasy was happening. How convenient.

I recently did a blog post on this very topic. Will you read it and provide me with some non-LDS feedback?

http://www.lifeongoldplates.com/2008/08/liken-with-care.html

[gmormon]

So Hitler is saved by grace?

Don't know and it is not for us to say! The only son of perdition we know for sure is Cain.

[revelation]

Mormonism

A family adopts you and lets you live in their house. You may not have the biggest room, but hey, you've got a nice roof over your head. If you behave, or have behaved, you get a car.

And if you don't behave do you go to the lowest kingdom of heaven or outer darkness?

[Cold Steel]

I was listening to an evangelical preacher on the radio last Sunday when he brought up what is becoming a more and more familiar themeâ??that although everybody who accepts Jesus is saved and will go to heaven; there are different rewards that will be meted out to them according to their works here on earth.

As much as I would like to see a trend here, I'm not sure the comment of one unknown evangelical is indicative of a change. Certainly this is biblical doctrine, but you'll most likely find that it's one that evangelicals sort of stumble into and out of.

[consiglieri]

As much as I would like to see a trend here, I'm not sure the comment of one unknown evangelical is indicative of a change. Certainly this is biblical doctrine, but you'll most likely find that it's one that evangelicals sort of stumble into and out of.

While this last radio program prompted the thread, I have been increasingly hearing this sentiment from evangelicals, both beyond this message board, as well as within.

My impression is that this is something that is picking up steam, sort of like the rapture phenomenon.

It is interesting to me, because it seems a way for evangelicals to incorporate the concept of the necessity of good works while simultaneously maintaining their one heaven-one hell position.

At bottom, it seems merely a matter of semantics when compared with the Mormon view.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[orion88]

From what I have heard, the divide is not getting narrower nor farther.

It seems to be the same.

Evangelicals would never consider Jesus the first spirit child born of

Heavenly Mother and Father who progressed into becoming a God.

Likewise, all Latter-day Saints would never consider Jesus as always

being the Eternal God.

In my opinion, if any of them did, then they would leave their respective

church and join another.

Tony