How Many People Are Currently Leaving The Church Over Historical Issues?

[lynnr]

California writes,

â??â?¦There is NO evidence that supports Jesus being the Christ. None. And yet, I know He is.â?

Thatâ??s a loaded statement. If you mean evidence as in scientific proof, granted it. For history cannot be repeated in a scientific laboratory, and Jesus was a historical figure. I know there are those who even question the historicity of the man, Jesus, but the historicity of Jesus is as axiomatic as the historicity of Julius Caesar. For instance, many ancient secular writers (non-Christian, non-Jewish, and generally anti-Christian) mention Jesus and the movement: Cornelius Tacitus (AD 55 â?? 120), Lucian of Samosatat, Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century, Suetonius, Roman historian, Pliny the Younger (AD 112), Thallus, AD 52), Phlegon, and Mara Bar-Serapion (AD 70).

As far as Jesus of Nazareth being the Messiah, the Christ, I do believe there is ample evidence in the form of fulfilled prophecy. The Old Testament contains nearly three hundred references to the coming Messiah. Jesus of Nazareth fit the pattern for fulfilling those prophecies.

Lynn

[HiJolly]

It is also not an easy lifestyle to...

1) Sit outside the temple while everybody else in your TBM family attends a wedding.

2) Stand outside the circle during ordinations and blessings.

3) Tell your TBM spouse you don't believe the Church is true.

Here's another tricky question: How many are pretending to have a testimony because they are afraid of 1, 2, or 3?

Far too many, I'm sure. Honesty IS the best policy. *one* would be too many, for that matter.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

I wanted a better relationship with Christ and I found that it was through "loving my neighbor". Being a good person and having christ in my heart that made me closer to Christ. It wasn't doing all the tasks and following all the rules required of Mormons. I came to realize that the 2nd greatest commandment is what brings the happiness. Not the first law of the gospel "obedience". The LDS church is too legalistic there is a long long list of do's and don't's. Rules and obligations. When I figured this out it was my first step out the mormon door.

As anyone on the spiritual path knows, self-limitation is key. Progress cannot be attained without it. Even those who study the "dark side" know this truth. I view the commandments and 'rules' as helpful examples leading into a development of mastery of self. The Church's particular take on these limits are exceptional and marvelous, in my experience.

HiJolly

[Calm]

CFR? I was not aware of the general amnesty agreement, although I was certain something of the sort had to have taken place to end the "Utah War". Perhaps I've read it and simply forgotten where, but I missed the part where Young requested a full investigation on the part of the incoming governor.

So far the only online reference to the early investigation (understandingmormonism.org) I've found besides on the board didn't have a source listed, so I'm still looking. There is this in the CES manual, but I believe it refers to a later time period (correction--this is the correct time period, the "later" referring to the gap between the Massacre and Cummings' taking control):

Later Brigham Young learned that members of the Iron County militia had been full participants in the affair. He offered Governor Alfred Cumming full support in an investigation, but none was undertaken at the time because the Mormons had been pardoned for all alleged crimes in connection with the Utah War.16

http://www.ldsces.org/inst_manuals/full/CE...e_32502_eng.pdf, pg 372

Footnote 16:

]16. Derived from Arrington, Brigham Young:

American Moses, p. 260.

This footnote is incomplete and should read "279-80" as well--the first being one reference to when BY learned of it and the second being when he urged Cummings to investigate. The book is quite detailed, quotes the description BY gave of his interview with Cummings pledging full cooperation, support and protection if the feds would only undertake the investigation and lists multiple efforts of BY and others in investigating, some of which led to the dismissal of church leaders and eventually to some excommunications.

Found this that makes it more explicit:

Responding to the charges that whites were involved, Brigham Young urged Governor Cumming to investigate the matter fully. However, the governor maintained that if whites were involved, they would be pardoned under the general amnesty granted by the governor to the Mormons in June 1858. This amnesty was issued at the behest of U.S. President James Buchanan, and covered all hostile acts against the United States by any persons in the course of the Utah War.

http://www.mormonwiki.com/mormonism/Mounta...eadows_massacre (no footnote though).

[Thinking]

Re: number 2, Why would you want to stand in an ordination circle if you believe it is hocus pocus?

I didn't say that I wanted to stand in the circle. No matter how you slice it, it's an awkward situation, especially for my wife and kids.

"Brother Thinking, would you like to join us in the circle?"

"No, thank you."

[Garden Girl]

Ihearya mentioned that God might be doing some "housecleaning" also, I think it was... well, that reminds me of the parable of the wheat and tares... these are the last days after all...

The Garden Girl

[California]

Pagans can't do real miracles?

I think that if I had a child that didn't know about me but trusted in me I would help him out. I think it must be blatant rebellion that God dislikes.

[California]

I wanted a better relationship with Christ and I found that it was through "loving my neighbor". Being a good person and having christ in my heart that made me closer to Christ. It wasn't doing all the tasks and following all the rules required of Mormons. I came to realize that the 2nd greatest commandment is what brings the happiness. Not the first law of the gospel "obedience". The LDS church is too legalistic there is a long long list of do's and don't's. Rules and obligations. When I figured this out it was my first step out the mormon door.

I don't understand your logic. The long list of "do's' and don'ts" are specifically designed to help you love your neighbor, to help you love and respect yourself and your family. They are sacrifice and obedience, and what is wrong with obedience? What is wrong with doing good things, though they may not be the easiest things. You may think this is blunt, but unless your issue was with the invalidity of the Church, this sounds very much like someone in the pre-mortal world saying "I want to do it my way, not yours," and in the end it didn't go very well with him.

[karl61]

California writes,

â??â?¦There is NO evidence that supports Jesus being the Christ. None. And yet, I know He is.â?

Thatâ??s a loaded statement. If you mean evidence as in scientific proof, granted it. For history cannot be repeated in a scientific laboratory, and Jesus was a historical figure. I know there are those who even question the historicity of the man, Jesus, but the historicity of Jesus is as axiomatic as the historicity of Julius Caesar. For instance, many ancient secular writers (non-Christian, non-Jewish, and generally anti-Christian) mention Jesus and the movement: Cornelius Tacitus (AD 55 â?? 120), Lucian of Samosatat, Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century, Suetonius, Roman historian, Pliny the Younger (AD 112), Thallus, AD 52), Phlegon, and Mara Bar-Serapion (AD 70).

As far as Jesus of Nazareth being the Messiah, the Christ, I do believe there is ample evidence in the form of fulfilled prophecy. The Old Testament contains nearly three hundred references to the coming Messiah. Jesus of Nazareth fit the pattern for fulfilling those prophecies.

Lynn

I had to check those names and this was a site I found:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/sco...ser/hojfaq.html

[sixidahos]

They would also be making the most noise about leaving too. I think the more important stat is how many buildings the church is building every year or how many wards are made. The Church is obviously not going to spend the money to build wardhouse that go unoccupied. That is probably the better indicator of church membership levels and activity than X number of millions.

It should be remembered that LDS is not the only group experiencing "ex" members. Protestans, Catholics, and others have thousands and thousands that leave every year. I was reading a little while ago about how EV churchs are having a difficult time getting men to go to church. The activity rate among men in non-LDS churches is a concern to many in those groups. That is what I love about anti-LDS who are in other churches that bring up this issue. They make mention of LDS church activity rates and people leaving but then they don't look at their own flocks and what is happening to them.

The trend in EV circles is mega-churches. They seat 5-10 thousand and have climbing walls, cafes (one has a Starbucks, another has a Burger King) Christian Rock Concerts, etc.

The mainstream Christian churches are being swallowed up by the mega-churches. These are some of the fastest growing Churches in the world right now. I think the whole thing is shallow, but it's what the Christians want right now until another trend catches their fancy.

[Calm]

The trend in EV circles is mega-churches. They seat 5-10 thousand and have climbing walls, cafes (one has a Starbucks, another has a Burger King) Christian Rock Concerts, etc.

The mainstream Christian churches are being swallowed up by the mega-churches. These are some of the fastest growing Churches in the world right now.

Do you have percentages of those attending these churches as opposed to the more traditional ones? Would be really nice to see a trend chart on this.

[Spartan_Warrior]

I think it's a considerable number, but not as many as some think. Personally, when I left the church, I left over theological issues. Unfortunately, with LDS history and doctrine going hand in hand, leaving over theological issues might as well be considered leaving over historical issues.

[jerryp48]

As I've said before (and I'm sure I'll get flamed for this) IMNSHO those who leave were looking for an excuse anyways. I mean if you've lost your testimony you can at least have the honesty to admit that its worth staying for the Christlike principles that it teaches even if you can't be a card carrying member.

[Tchild2]

As I've said before (and I'm sure I'll get flamed for this) IMNSHO those who leave were looking for an excuse anyways. I mean if you've lost your testimony you can at least have the honesty to admit that its worth staying for the Christlike principles that it teaches even if you can't be a card carrying member.

Your's is a common stereotype. Sadly, in most cases it simply is not true. Those who are "looking for an excuse" could easily find much easier rationales for leaving the church than going and researching the issues surrounding the foundational claims of the church. Being "offended" is infinitely more common and a far easier cop-out for those persons looking for a quick out.

"Christlike principals" can be lived perfectly fine without religion telling you what to wear, eat or think.

[Spartan_Warrior]

As I've said before (and I'm sure I'll get flamed for this) IMNSHO those who leave were looking for an excuse anyways. I mean if you've lost your testimony you can at least have the honesty to admit that its worth staying for the Christlike principles that it teaches even if you can't be a card carrying member.

Oh, how untrue that is! Even after I lost my testimony, I kept going to church and living by its standards for about a year in the hopes of regaining it. And no, incase you are wondering, the loss of my testimony was not as the result of some sin. By according to scripture, man is by nature sinful, so therefore if god let your testimony rest on whether or not you sin, NO ONE would have a testimony by the scriptures' logic. No, I lived the church's teachings as close as I possibly could. I would study my scriptures, pray, and ponder on a regular basis. I was not looking for an excuse to leave the church, as that was extremely inconvenient for me. I had established many good friendships during my stint in the church, and I was sad at the idea of hurting my friends. However, in the end, I couldn't fool myself anymore. And as for Christlike principles? Don't fool yourself, the non-Mormon world isn't entirely staffed by sin-loving god-haters. I am a rather belligerent agnostic, and I consider myself quite moral. Most Mormons probably would, too.

[Hammer]

Oh, how untrue that is! Even after I lost my testimony, I kept going to church and living by its standards for about a year in the hopes of regaining it. And no, incase you are wondering, the loss of my testimony was not as the result of some sin. By according to scripture, man is by nature sinful, so therefore if god let your testimony rest on whether or not you sin, NO ONE would have a testimony by the scriptures' logic. No, I lived the church's teachings as close as I possibly could. I would study my scriptures, pray, and ponder on a regular basis. I was not looking for an excuse to leave the church, as that was extremely inconvenient for me. I had established many good friendships during my stint in the church, and I was sad at the idea of hurting my friends. However, in the end, I couldn't fool myself anymore. And as for Christlike principles? Don't fool yourself, the non-Mormon world isn't entirely staffed by sin-loving god-haters. I am a rather belligerent agnostic, and I consider myself quite moral. Most Mormons probably would, too.

It sounds like you have covered all the bases, but not really. You missed something very basic.

[Thinking]

As I've said before (and I'm sure I'll get flamed for this) IMNSHO those who leave were looking for an excuse anyways.

Get the fire extinguisher!

I mean if you've lost your testimony you can at least have the honesty to admit that its worth staying for the Christlike principles that it teaches even if you can't be a card carrying member.

"Each of us has to face the matterâ??either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing." (Gordon B. Hinckley, April 2003 GC)

[Spartan_Warrior]

It sounds like you have covered all the bases, but not really. You missed something very basic.

What might that be?

[Hammer]

What might that be?

You seem to think you have all the answers. Are you sure you don't have this one? Are you sure you want to hear it from ME?

[Spartan_Warrior]

You seem to think you have all the answers. Are you sure you don't have this one? Are you sure you want to hear it from ME?

Well, my friend, I most CERTAINLY don't have all the answers. No one ever can or ever will have all the answers. Whatever governs to universe, I don't think it wants us to have all the answers. Life isn't meant to be mapped out - it's meant to be a mysterious adventure. An adventure that is different for each person.

[Noodle]

I don't understand your logic. The long list of "do's' and don'ts" are specifically designed to help you love your neighbor, to help you love and respect yourself and your family. They are sacrifice and obedience, and what is wrong with obedience? What is wrong with doing good things, though they may not be the easiest things. You may think this is blunt, but unless your issue was with the invalidity of the Church, this sounds very much like someone in the pre-mortal world saying "I want to do it my way, not yours," and in the end it didn't go very well with him.

As I was reading your response and you wrote:

>>>"this sounded very much like someone in the pre-mortal world saying "I want to do it my way, not yours"<<<

I thought you were talking about Satan who wanted to force people into submission and force them to come back to heaven, instead of letting people find their own way back to heaven. Which I would have agreed with. Give people free agency, don't put a list of rules that they must follow to get back to heaven. We will show you how you must be christ like instead of letting people be christlike in their own way.

"more than one ear ring is not christ like"

"coffee is not christlike, but hot chocolate is"

"go on a mission is christlike, peace corps instead is not"

"climbing mt si on Sunday with your kids is not christlike, forcing religion on them is"

"spank your kids, ok to go to the temple, drink a glass of wine with dinner no temple for you."

"marry 14 year olds to 38 year olds christlike, allowing consenting adults to marry that are gay, not"

"Giving more money to the LDS church than you will need for any other expense in your life regardless of the needs of your family christlike , the LDS church using the money it has for business purposes Also christlike?"

you are right. the forced submission plan satan proposed didnt' go over very well. It seems like the mormon church has brought it back for another try.

[Hammer]

Well, my friend, I most CERTAINLY don't have all the answers. No one ever can or ever will have all the answers. Whatever governs to universe, I don't think it wants us to have all the answers. Life isn't meant to be mapped out - it's meant to be a mysterious adventure. An adventure that is different for each person.

It is true that life is a mystery or mysterious adventure. It is also true that the adventure is different for each person. But-- there is only one God and one Way.

[Anijen]

I am with the minority, its not historical but it might be justified as such. Again the most common reason people leave is due to some other reason than history.

Its like someone saying;"

I believe the church is true the Holy Ghost confirmed it to me, oh you say The Book of Abraham has credibility problems, I'm outta here"

Ain't buying it . Even though I'm in the minority here those of you who say its history have no sources to back it up so its easy to say and easier to justify your exodus from the fully restored and true church!!!

a true zealot

Anijen

[Calm]

you are right. the forced submission plan satan proposed didnt' go over very well. It seems like the mormon church has brought it back for another try.

Right. The Church has some sort of power that causes people to do all those things whether or not they choose to.

As to Satan's plan being "forced submission" there is nothing in the scriptures that indicates this. Instead, I think a decent interpretation is that he simply removed any eternal consequences for sinful action---no Law IOW. Without the Law, there could be no sin. Much easier than attempting to control billions of people all at once for every moment of their existence, not ony their external behaviour but each little blip of a thought as well.

Free agency means having the ability to choose, not that there are no real choices out there--real choices being choices that actually matter, that have a wrong and right to them, not choices that are so openended that it doesn't really matter what you choose as in the long run you will simply end up in the same place as everyone else anyway. How do those choices show you what is important or not to yourself? Rules don't remove the ability to choose and indeed they create even more opportunities to choose as in the choice whether or not to follow them.

[Spartan_Warrior]

It is true that life is a mystery or mysterious adventure. It is also true that the adventure is different for each person. But-- there is only one God and one Way.

If I was still sure that there is even a God, then I'd agree with you completely. However, since I can't be so sure, I'm more inclined to say that the path is different for everyone.