How Many People Are Currently Leaving The Church Over Historical Issues?

[structurecop]

And not just the ruins, but also just looking at the customs of the Maya, Tzeltal, Tzotzil, Ch'ol, Chontal, and Lacandon tribes and how closely they relate to the stories presented in the Book of Mormon are rather astounding.

Archaeological evidence (or lack of it) aside, can you give some examples of Lamanite customs among the tribal people? Scriptural citations would be welcome.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Archaeological evidence (or lack of it) aside, can you give some examples of Lamanite customs among the tribal people? Scriptural citations would be welcome.

I'll go for some.

Ruins of Mitla, Oaxaca. The name Mitla, mutated from Miatlan in Nahuatl, means 'desolated place'. The Book of Mormon makes many mentions of a certain land north of Bountiful with that same name, Desolation.

Some of the Lamanite customs prevalent in Chiapas:

Lacandones...the only light skinned indians, very distinguishable from the other tribes also by the way they dress and their stature (enormous compared with the dwarf Tzeltales and Tzotziles)...when I contacted one of them in San Cristobal de las Casas, Chiapas, I started relating the Book of Mormon and showed the picture of Christ descending to the Nephites...

The Lacandon responded: Asi paso' (that happened). We have a tradition that C'ul (short for C'ulc'ulc'an) visited us. He was white and bearded and he lived among us.

They, like us, await His return.

The Tzeltal race live in the mountainous regions of Chiapas. One of the towns that they live in is Yajalon (called by the Tzeltales Yashal-lum)...there is a fertile valley by Jerusalem with the same name (minus the Y). And Yaxal Lum translates "Green Valley" or "Fertile Valley" in Tzeltal.

The ruins of Tonilna (the Stone House, as the name translates) are ruins close to the city of Ocosingo, Chiapas. This ruin is not very impressive, but you do see the corruptions that the Lamanites started to do (read: Mormon, and Moroni 8-9 for more details) like a huge pit for human sacrifices and a temple dedicated to the Monster of the Underworld. Strangely enough shortly after the temple's dedication (historians peg it to nearly 900 AD), Tonilna failed to exist as a major population center, and were driven out to the surrounding mountains where the Tzeltal race lives to this day.

Palenque's also got some important ruins, especially the Temple of the Cross and the Temple of the Inscriptions. It was inside the latter that a stake patriarch was led to confess to two of his accomplices that was he saw was synonomous with the modern temples of today.

The Aztecs were an important tribe in the 14th century AD. Their last leader Cuauhtemoc led a heroic but failed resistance against the Spainards...and his last testimony bares striking resemblence to the Book of Mormon...that the Lamanites had lost their glory...because they were too militaristic, too cruel, too filled with hate...but when the fathers and mothers and teachers became the true guides, and a newer focus was established with the family and the home, they would see the development of a true Anahuac society. That prophecy is being fulfilled with each active Mexican family of the Church.

I could name more examples...but it would probably be more useful to seperate these examples into their own threads.

[BishopRic]

Forgive me if this point has already been addressed. I donâ??t have the stamina to read through the entire thread, and I must relinquish the computer Iâ??m using in a few minutes. I donâ??t think itâ??s very useful to couch decisions regarding truth claims in terms of feelings, although feelings certainly may be a part of the answer. Disaffected members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and non-members like to seize upon this one aspect of conversion and derisively launch into a chorus of â??Feeeee-lings! Nothing more than feeeee-lings â?¦ Feeee-lings, Whoa-whoa-whoa, feeeee-lings â?¦â? But, I digress.

I think itâ??s more useful to talk in terms of good fruit. I believe the Savior when he asked if my earthly father, being evil, still knows how to give good gifts to me as his child, how much more would my Heavenly Father know to give good gifts to me, as well. I donâ??t believe one gathers grapes of thorns or figs of thistles, and I donâ??t believe my earthly father (or my Heavenly Father, for that matter) would give me a stone if I asked for bread or a serpent if I asked for fish. I hold the convictions I do because they have born abundant good fruit, bread, and fish in my life. I believe those convictions, properly applied and adhered to, would do much the same for anyone else. (I know that's not always the case, but that's not for me to judge: Inasmuch as men do good, whether in the Church of Jesus Christ or out of it, they shall in nowise lose their reward.

I appreciate your comments. I will choose to emphasize the word you use above...convictions. Generally, I think you're right -- it is with faith and conviction in a life paradigm that it bears fruit. I have also seen exactly the same conviction and resulting fruit in a Buddhist culture -- one that doesn't even believe in "God." So I'm quite comfortable with a person committing to a particular faith system, giving it their all, and I revel in their happiness there. I also would hope that same person would respect my rights and possibilities of the same happiness in my own system of faith, without the need to change it.

[e=mc2]

Hey Muc'ul Ajwalil. Yer post reminds me a lot of the work of Robert A. Pate's Mapping the Book of Mormon, 2002. It was severely critiqued by the Near Eastern LDS scholar John Tvedtnes however in the FARMS Review (don't have it right in front of me at the moment).

By one of the most bizarre and utterly fascinating coincidences ever in my life, within the very hour of my purchasing Pate's book, I get a phone call, and it is none other than Robert A. Pate! He had heard of me via the internet and decided to call me and talk to me! I laughed and told him it was spooky that I had just bought his book a moment ago and now here he is (we are perfect strangers!) talking to me in person, having never before heard of me, nor I of him! Haven't heard boo from him since either.

[structurecop]

I could name more examples...but it would probably be more useful to seperate these examples into their own threads.

Well, I know missionary experiences are very sacred so I won't dissect your experiences. I'm glad they're faith promoting for you.

[Thoth]

I know 3 families who have left due to historical issues, mostly problems with the Book of Mormon and polygamy. I have talked to them about their issues, and yet I still investigate. Perhaps I will find something to my liking..

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Hey Muc'ul Ajwalil. Yer post reminds me a lot of the work of Robert A. Pate's Mapping the Book of Mormon, 2002. It was severely critiqued by the Near Eastern LDS scholar John Tvedtnes however in the FARMS Review (don't have it right in front of me at the moment).

By one of the most bizarre and utterly fascinating coincidences ever in my life, within the very hour of my purchasing Pate's book, I get a phone call, and it is none other than Robert A. Pate! He had heard of me via the internet and decided to call me and talk to me! I laughed and told him it was spooky that I had just bought his book a moment ago and now here he is (we are perfect strangers!) talking to me in person, having never before heard of me, nor I of him! Haven't heard boo from him since either.

Ah, very nice! No manches, cuate! That is nice!

It was just something else just seeing the areas of my mission...during transfers or during travel to zone conferences on the bus, I would always be looking out at the scenery, and it was almost as if I had dreams seeing Nephites, robbers, or Lamanites roaming around, having their wars, or just planting their crops. Don't get me wrong, I actually DID work during my mission (every day that wasn't P-day) we were walking and tracting. The sightseeing and stuff, that was purely on transfers and during P-day when we had to travel two or three hours to district meetings.