How Many People Are Currently Leaving The Church Over Historical Issues?

California · August 6, 2007

I would like to know what is known about this because I don't trust Palmer, (the guy who was in CES for 35 years), about it being an outrageous number.

He usually only shows one side of the coin.

solomarineris · August 6, 2007

I would like to know what is known about this because I don't trust Palmer, (the guy who was in CES for 35 years), about it being an outrageous number.
He usually only shows one side of the coin.

Well you have an other alternative than trusting Grant Palmer. You can trust official information.

Unfortunately official information in this regard was never forthcoming. My guess is (judging from internet)

there is a huge exodus which overwhelms offices of Mr. Dodge. I am not exaggarating this.

LifeOnaPlate · August 6, 2007

Grant Palmer. Geez.

Davis Bitton wrote a sterling essay about not having a testimony of the History of the Church, and I recommend it to all.

California · August 6, 2007

Does anybody know of someone who almost left the Church and then didn't? And why they didnt?

If they were having trouble getting an answer, hypothetically.

freakin a man · August 6, 2007

The Church does not give stats so its anyones guess. My guess is its probably not any greater than it has been in any other period. It might look bigger simply because the church is bigger. Its not really a concern for me anyways. The Church in the Book of Mormon has periods where it grows and shrinks. The Lord is going to weed out the weak links or tares. Perhaps a leaner, more faithful Church might be a goal.

California · August 6, 2007

Well you have an other alternative than trusting Grant Palmer. You can trust official information.
Unfortunately official information in this regard was never forthcoming. My guess is (judging from internet)
there is a huge exodus which overwhelms offices of Mr. Dodge. I am not exaggarating this.

Who is Mr. Dodge?

The Church does not give stats so its anyones guess. My guess is its probably not any greater than it has been in any other period. It might look bigger simply because the church is bigger. Its not really a concern for me anyways. The Church in the Book of Mormon has periods where it grows and shrinks. The Lord is going to weed out the weak links or tares. Perhaps a leaner, more faithful Church might be a goal.

right... like raising the bar... or having 5 instead of 10 virgins... that makes sense.

Tchild2 · August 6, 2007

I would like to know what is known about this because I don't trust Palmer, (the guy who was in CES for 35 years), about it being an outrageous number.
He usually only shows one side of the coin.

I doubt there are hard numbers. The Member Records department handles the resignation requests, but the number of yearly resignations is not divulged, and that department may not know the reasons of the resignation in every case. Secondly, most likely a small minority of those who leave the faith do so via an official, written resignation, while the majority simply choose a quieter and non-official exit.

My guess (from posting a few years at RFM) is that maybe a few thousand officially resign every year, maybe 3- 5 thousand. I imagine that quite a few of those resignations and the reasons for the disenchantment with the LDS church are aired out in the letters. Such a small sampling however, probably could not determine the number of members that leave the church due to historical and/or foundational issues.

From my experience knowing a number of ex or inactive members. I would guess that maybe 5-10% of Members who resign, do so due to perceived conflicts with the historical record. That number is probably mostly applicable to members in first world countries.

California · August 6, 2007

I doubt there are hard numbers. The Member Records department handles the resignation requests, but the number of yearly resignations is not divulged, and that department may not know the reasons of the resignation in every case. Secondly, most likely a small minority of those who leave the faith do so via an official, written resignation, while the majority simply choose a quieter and non-official exit.
My guess (from posting a few years at RFM) is that maybe a few thousand officially resign every year, maybe 3- 5 thousand. I imagine that quite a few of those resignations and the reasons for the disenchantment with the LDS church are aired out in the letters. Such a small sampling however, probably could not determine the number of members that leave the church due to historical and/or foundational issues.
From my experience knowing a number of ex or inactive members. I would guess that maybe 5-10% of Members who resign, do so due to perceived conflicts with the historical record. That number is probably mostly applicable to members in first world countries.

Thanks for that. That was my thought too, that the ones leaving over discrepancies on an intellectual level would be from 1st world countries.

solomarineris · August 6, 2007

Who is Mr. Dodge?

Are you trying to be funny?

( If so, it worked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!}

He leads a problematic section of church bureucracy in church office building.

freakin a man · August 6, 2007

Thanks for that. That was my thought too, that the ones leaving over discrepancies on an intellectual level would be from 1st world countries.

They would also be making the most noise about leaving too. I think the more important stat is how many buildings the church is building every year or how many wards are made. The Church is obviously not going to spend the money to build wardhouse that go unoccupied. That is probably the better indicator of church membership levels and activity than X number of millions.

It should be remembered that LDS is not the only group experiencing "ex" members. Protestans, Catholics, and others have thousands and thousands that leave every year. I was reading a little while ago about how EV churchs are having a difficult time getting men to go to church. The activity rate among men in non-LDS churches is a concern to many in those groups. That is what I love about anti-LDS who are in other churches that bring up this issue. They make mention of LDS church activity rates and people leaving but then they don't look at their own flocks and what is happening to them.

Hoops22 · August 6, 2007

I think the more important stat is how many buildings the church is building every year or how many wards are made. The Church is obviously not going to spend the money to build wardhouse that go unoccupied. That is probably the better indicator of church membership levels and activity than X number of millions.

Really? You don't know of any wards that are partially filled? I don't even look for them and I know of several. I make no evaluation on that, but you do.

Folks leaving ANY church is not necessarily a good barometer of it's worthiness, do you think?

Tchild2 · August 6, 2007

They would also be making the most noise about leaving too. I think the more important stat is how many buildings the church is building every year or how many wards are made. The Church is obviously not going to spend the money to build wardhouse that go unoccupied. That is probably the better indicator of church membership levels and activity than X number of millions.
It should be remembered that LDS is not the only group experiencing "ex" members. Protestans, Catholics, and others have thousands and thousands that leave every year. I was reading a little while ago about how EV churchs are having a difficult time getting men to go to church. The activity rate among men in non-LDS churches is a concern to many in those groups. That is what I love about anti-LDS who are in other churches that bring up this issue. They make mention of LDS church activity rates and people leaving but then they don't look at their own flocks and what is happening to them.

Those are very good points. The church is growing the number of ward and stake houses, and is / was on a temple building tear.

All large religions lose members. There are a few sister religions that are fairly similiar to the LDS faith that do post their resignation and ex-member stats (7th Day adventists I believe). It would be very easy to extrapolate from data that they provide, correlating it to the LDS church in the proportion of membership population, the numbers of those who leave the LDS church.

LifeOnaPlate · August 6, 2007

They would also be making the most noise about leaving too. I think the more important stat is how many buildings the church is building every year or how many wards are made. The Church is obviously not going to spend the money to build wardhouse that go unoccupied. That is probably the better indicator of church membership levels and activity than X number of millions.
It should be remembered that LDS is not the only group experiencing "ex" members. Protestans, Catholics, and others have thousands and thousands that leave every year. I was reading a little while ago about how EV churchs are having a difficult time getting men to go to church. The activity rate among men in non-LDS churches is a concern to many in those groups. That is what I love about anti-LDS who are in other churches that bring up this issue. They make mention of LDS church activity rates and people leaving but then they don't look at their own flocks and what is happening to them.

The same folks who point at the exiting numbers as a partial justification for their abandoning the faith are likely the ones who would loudly tout the increase in church membership during their believing years, and for the wrong reasons.

solomarineris · August 6, 2007

They would also be making the most noise about leaving too. I think the more important stat is how many buildings the church is building every year or how many wards are made. The Church is obviously not going to spend the money to build wardhouse that go unoccupied.

Well said freakin-man,

You really do not need building after building when you don't neet them.

but how come this foresight was not shown in Temple building era, where most of those temples now operate appointment only basis.

California · August 6, 2007

The same folks who point at the exiting numbers as a partial justification for their abandoning the faith are likely the ones who would loudly tout the increase in church membership during their believing years, and for the wrong reasons.

that's a good point, I've definitely seen it used that way. 3-5000 isn't that many, but sadly it is 3-5000 too many.

Garden Girl · August 6, 2007

How about those who go inactive... like I did... and then return sometimes years later... like I did. Some may not stay inactive as long as I did. I didn't actually take my name off the rolls, but I'm sure I was on the inactive lists. In my ward, we've had senior couple missionaires working with people on the inactive list and we've had several reactivating...

The Garden Girl

Bsix · August 6, 2007

The number you ask for is very, very tricky for a number of reasons.

I don't know if event the Church itself has any idea how many folks leave over "historical" issues. The Church may know how many resignations occur...but catagorizing the reasons for any given resignation would be elusive. I also tend to believe that most who leave Mormonism simply walk away and never bother to formally renounce their membership.

I happen to have served in a number of callings that would permit me to be aware of members who have resigned. My less then complete observation is that an average ward sees no more than one or two such requests in a five year period. That being true, it means that there are about 8,000 formal resignations a year for the entire Church.

As I said, most who leave do so without formality. They stop believing, become disillusioned with the members, are not interested in the culture, the obligation, or they find one aspect or another that they are uncomfortable with. A few formally convert to a specific religion or become active in their old faith. I do not believe that most people who leave really spend a great deal of delving into scholarly investigation. Religion for most people is based on feelings and instinct...more than pure intellectualism.

In the end, I suspect that people who leave Mormonism for pretty much the exact same reasons that people leave other religions. I also tend to believe that Mormonism does not have any more of a retention problem than other religions. If anything, I'd be willing to bet that we compare fairly well.

I hope this provides some insight.

Regards,

Six

Son · August 6, 2007

Considering the youth, the Ev figures are 88%

Would 50% be out of line for LDS youth?

charity · August 6, 2007

I'm not in an official position as six is, but those I know who have become less active or resigned or were excommunicated, none were over historical issues. Most were personal issues.

Duncan · August 6, 2007

I had to phone member records this week and the lady was grumpy but who knows why. She did put me in touch with the info I needed. I know a few people who left over historical issues and their understanding of it.

Daniel Peterson · August 6, 2007

most of those temples now operate appointment only basis.

Those temples were designed to operate on an appointment-only basis, and that was explained when they were announced.

Ray Agostini · August 6, 2007

I have some tricky questions here:

1) Why do some leave over historical issues, but others, just as well informed, don't?

2) What comes first, the "historical issues", or the disenchantment with the Mormon lifestyle per se? Or just the plain inability, lack of desire, to live it?

This is not an easy lifestyle to live, it's very demanding, but as I understand it those who "remain" do so because they've had a witness, but even those who've had a witness sometimes find it very difficult.

Could "historical issues" push them to turn against Mormonism, when in fact it's a deep-seated desire to be "free"? Only askin'. They will argue 'till the cows come home that this is not the case, and to dismiss those who remain, despite the problems and "cog.diss", as "deluded".

After all, if one looks at Christianity "logically", it can be viewed as being quite absurd. People walking on water, the dead rising, finding coins in fish caught, living in a fish belly for three days, etc. How much more absurd is Mormonism than Christianity? If you take the Bible in toto, I think it's far more absurd than the Book of Mormon.

So do "historical issues" turn Christians into unbelievers?

Where is the concrete evidence for the very existence of Jesus?

urroner · August 6, 2007

I have some tricky questions here:
1) Why do some leave over historical issues, but others, just as well informed, don't?
2) What comes first, the "historical issues", or the disenchantment with the Mormon lifestyle per se? Or just the plain inability, lack of desire, to live it?
This is not an easy lifestyle to live, it's very demanding, but as I understand it those who "remain" do so because they've had a witness, but even those who've had a witness sometimes find it very difficult.
Could "historical issues" push them to turn against Mormonism, when in fact it's a deep-seated desire to be "free"? Only askin'. They will argue 'till the cows come home that this is not the case, and to dismiss those who remain, despite the problems and "cog.diss", as "deluded".
After all, if one looks at Christianity "logically", it can be viewed as being quite absurd. People walking on water, the dead rising, finding coins in fish caught, living in a fish belly for three days, etc. How much more absurd is Mormonism than Christianity? If you take the Bible in toto, I think it's far more absurd than the Book of Mormon.
So do "historical issues" turn Christians into unbelievers?
Where is the concrete evidence for the very existence of Jesus?

My thoughts also Ray. I know very few people who left the Church because of historical reasons, but I know many who left because they couldn't or didn't want to live the standards;

Oracle · August 6, 2007

1) Why do some leave over historical issues, but others, just as well informed, don't?

Two guesses. I feel that the ones who DO leave over historical issues have ultimately more integrity. They care about the subject matter more, therefore they are not content to remain the the flock of inactive apathy. There also is the issue of family ties. If someone has a family who is heavily steeped in mormonism, they may opt to not resign to spare feelings of family members. I have seen examples of both of these over and over and over again.

2) What comes first, the "historical issues", or the disenchantment with the Mormon lifestyle per se? Or just the plain inability, lack of desire, to live it?

First of all, you are right. Mormonism is a very demanding lifestyle. It may be worth it to those who truly believe it. Not so much if one has doubts. The doubts have a very effective way of causing structural crumbles in the energy to keep up the demanding lifestyle. If one has been studying early Joseph Smith and is truly questioning the authenticity of Joseph's first vision and his worthiness in ensuing revelations....it suddenly doesn't make a whole lot of sense to work ones self to the bone trying to pray three times a day, do VT, FHE, church callings, tithing, etc. The demanding lifestyle is not worth it if the gospel messaging is fraudulent.

As far as disenchantment with lifestyle, I think this is very dependent on personality. I know more than one person with perfectionist tendencies who absolutely worked themselves and everyone around them into a frenzy trying to keep up with the lifestyle. In essence, the well-intentioned lifestyle demands actually became a liability instead of an asset because of personality quirks.

Could "historical issues" push them to turn against Mormonism, when in fact it's a deep-seated desire to be "free"? Only askin'. They will argue 'till the cows come home that this is not the case, and to dismiss those who remain, despite the problems and "cog.diss", as "deluded".

Free? Of what? If living the gospel makes one free (as many believers feel), then why exactly would a believer leave to be free? If the gospel is weighing down on a person to the extent they feel they must hurl it off them in order to be free (as in the previously mentioned perfectionist), then I suppose the gospel was a functional albatross rather than a freedom. I speak of this in terms of those who have not "sinned" by LDS definition.

After all, if one looks at Christianity "logically", it can be viewed as being quite absurd. People walking on water, the dead rising, finding coins in fish caught, living in a fish belly for three days, etc. How much more absurd is Mormonism than Christianity? If you take the Bible in toto, I think it's far more absurd than the Book of Mormon.
So do "historical issues" turn Christians into unbelievers?

Yes to historical issues turning LDS into unbelievers and Yes to historical issues turning Christians into unbelievers.

Where is the concrete evidence for the very existence of Jesus?

There is none that I know if and for many good people who I know have left mormonism, it has been a very short walk for them to leave christianity based on the very methodologies they used to refute mormonism.

Mighty Curelom · August 6, 2007

My thoughts also Ray. I know very few people who left the Church because of historical reasons, but I know many who left because they couldn't or didn't want to live the standards;

Apparently you're not referencing Mormons who convert to Judaism, or Islam, or even Evangelical Christianity, since each of those religions are as strict if not stricter than Mormonism. You must, then, be talking about Mormons who become atheists. So, to be slightly more specific, you might say "I know many Mormons who became atheists because they didn't want to adhere to LDS standards."

My response to that is, who are these atheists? Who are these people who would prefer total annihilation to eternal paradise? Do you really think anyone is so into tea that they'd trade immortality for a cup of Earl Gray? And why bother apostacizing at all? You don't have to stop believing in Mormonism to enjoy a few beers. Believe me, I know plenty of Mormons who don't "live the standards."

So do "historical issues" turn Christians into unbelievers?

They should.

1) Why do some leave over historical issues, but others, just as well informed, don't?

Sometimes smart people believe things for stupid reasons, one of which is the now-proverbial cognitive dissonance. If Mormonism is a fraud, then someone who believes it has been conned; they've given 10% of their income to a fraud; they've wasted years of time and energy on a fantasy; they've indoctrinated their kids and put them on the same path. Nobody wants to be "that kind of person." Nobody wants to be the one who sent their life savings to Nigeria, only to find out it's a scam. So the solution is: it's not a scam. The FBI is wrong; I really am going to get a check from Nigeria one of these days. The church really IS true.

In a battle between the truth and the ego, the truth hasn't got a chance.

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