How Many People Are Currently Leaving The Church Over Historical Issues?

[California]

Are you suggesting that Christian and Deist are incompatible ? Sounds like those EVs who label Mormons as not being Christian. Cmon Eva.

I see you found a loophole. But even then... agnostic?

[urroner]

deism n.

The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

Christianity is based on the assumption the God loved the world and gave His Son to be sacrificed.

Aye, I see a huge problem with being both a strong deist and a strong Christian.

Am I wrong?

[Jan]

If any of my LDS brothers and sisters want to see me start foaming at the mouth, just start with the "that healing was of the devil" in regard to those faithful Christians outside the Church receiving a "healing." It makes me cringe when I hear our people, regardless of what level, say such a thing.

I agree with those who say these healings are a matter of faith... The Lord will heal whom he will according to their "faith" and it is not for us to judge. There are many deeply faithful people who love the Lord and live an exemplary life. They have faith that their prayers will be heard, and they are. They can and do receive inspiration according to their faithful prayers when they call upon the Lord.

That said, however, make no mistake... I firmly believe in the Priesthood, and the necessity of priesthood authority for performing ordinances, i.e., baptism, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, the temple ordinances...

But I would not presume to take it upon myself to limit God by condeming blessings received by a non-LDS through faith, as being of the devil.

The Garden Girl

Yeah, what Garden Girl said.

I believe many of our leaders have also made statements that other religious leaders, even non-Christian ones, have been led by inspiration (and so, adherents can receive inspiration and God's blessings). I believe that God can even touch the lives of non-believers (He did mine).

[urroner]

Yeah, what Garden Girl said.

I believe many of our leaders have also made statements that other religious leaders, even non-Christian ones, have been led by inspiration (and so, adherents can receive inspiration and God's blessings). I believe that God can even touch the lives of non-believers (He did mine).

Didn't Joseph Smith say that non-members could give blessings for the healing of the sick and God could recognize this blessings?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Sorry, folks, God only talks to the Mormons.

[California]

deism n.

The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

Christianity is based on the assumption the God loved the world and gave His Son to be sacrificed.

Aye, I see a huge problem with being both a strong deist and a strong Christian.

Am I wrong?

Maybe some of us are confused about what Deism means...

[BishopRic]

Maybe some of us are confused about what Deism means...

I've looked up "Deism" a bit, and there are certainly many definitions. From Wikipedia:

"Deism differs from theism in that according to Deism God does not interfere with human life and the laws of the universe.

Deists typically reject supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and divine revelation prominent in organized religion, along with holy books and revealed religions that assert the existence of such things. Instead, Deists hold that religious beliefs must be founded on human reason and observed features of the natural world, and that these sources reveal the existence of one God or supreme being."

And another way to view a "Christian" is:

"One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus."

Some see the modern version of the New Testament as only one compilation (and perhaps a poor one at that) of the life of Jesus. Gnostic Christians consider themselves Christians, but view his teachings and history to have been quite different than what is written in the NT.

So I think the two words are not mutually exclusive...but again, I personally hate the whole label thing anyway!

[California]

I've looked up "Deism" a bit, and there are certainly many definitions. From Wikipedia:

"Deism differs from theism in that according to Deism God does not interfere with human life and the laws of the universe.

Deists typically reject supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and divine revelation prominent in organized religion, along with holy books and revealed religions that assert the existence of such things. Instead, Deists hold that religious beliefs must be founded on human reason and observed features of the natural world, and that these sources reveal the existence of one God or supreme being."

And another way to view a "Christian" is:

"One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus."

Some see the modern version of the New Testament as only one compilation (and perhaps a poor one at that) of the life of Jesus. Gnostic Christians consider themselves Christians, but view his teachings and history to have been quite different than what is written in the NT.

So I think the two words are not mutually exclusive...but again, I personally hate the whole label thing anyway!

Again, it's not me that's labelling!! (and getting it wrong...)

[Zakuska]

This thread would be better named...

"How Many People Are Currently Leaving The Church Over Distortions and Half truths about Historical Issues"

[battlefieldboy]

This thread would be better named...

"How Many People Are Currently Leaving The Church Over Distortions and Half truths about Historical Issues"

Now the question is WHO is doing the distorting and half truths?

[Zakuska]

Very good question...

In my Opinion?

I think we all are to blame. We ALL tend to Dunnize our stories don't we?

[BishopRic]

Again, it's not me that's labelling!! (and getting it wrong...)

...just pointing out how we can get into a p!ssing match over labels. I actually resist attempts to label my "religion." I suppose one could say I'm a "spiritual humanist." Probably covers my bases with that one.

[ruski_canuk]

...just pointing out how we can get into a p!ssing match over labels. I actually resist attempts to label my "religion." I suppose one could say I'm a "spiritual humanist." Probably covers my bases with that one.

Labeling is a convenient way to compartmentalize others to fit with our desired cognitions. For example, if I can be successfully labeled as not Christian, than the compartmentalization turns on and I lose credibility (among this audience) regardless of the fact that it shouldn't speak to credibility whatsoever.

If I am a christian, it is with a very small c. However, just because I'm not 100% sure where I stand at this point doesn't mean you need to be putting me on the grill. Ridiculous.

[BishopRic]

Labeling is a convenient way to compartmentalize others to fit with our desired cognitions. For example, if I can be successfully labeled as not Christian, than the compartmentalization turns on and I lose credibility (among this audience) regardless of the fact that it shouldn't speak to credibility whatsoever.

If I am a christian, it is with a very small c. However, just because I'm not 100% sure where I stand at this point doesn't mean you need to be putting me on the grill. Ridiculous.

Exactly! I also think it is quite unique culturally (for Mormons) to think they "need to know" the mysteries. When asked today "wouldn't you want to 'know' if the church is true?," it is easy for me to answer "no, there is much I don't know about many things, but it doesn't change the fact that I am interested in it, and might choose to study it.

I like another phrase:

[moriancamur]

Labeling is a convenient way to compartmentalize others to fit with our desired cognitions. For example, if I can be successfully labeled as not Christian, than the compartmentalization turns on and I lose credibility (among this audience) regardless of the fact that it shouldn't speak to credibility whatsoever.

If I am a christian, it is with a very small c. However, just because I'm not 100% sure where I stand at this point doesn't mean you need to be putting me on the grill. Ridiculous.

Yes we do box up people. It helps us feel safe but it doesn't help those who are moving between boxes due to a life changing experience or realization and aren't sure which one they now fit best into. All boxes should be very flexible, but we all feel a need for fellowship and to feel understood. When a person feels a little lost they can be vulnerable. To attack this is a sign of weakness in the attackers I think.

As a teenager I remember thinking how boring life was going to be now I know everything about life and religion. 30 years on I know I know so little and have everything to gain from learning.

[ruski_canuk]

Yes we do box up people. It helps us feel safe but it doesn't help those who are moving between boxes due to a life changing experience or realization and aren't sure which one they now fit best into. All boxes should be very flexible, but we all feel a need for fellowship and to feel understood. When a person feels a little lost they can be vulnerable. To attack this is a sign of weakness in the attackers I think.

As a teenager I remember thinking how boring life was going to be now I know everything about life and religion. 30 years on I know I know so little and have everything to gain from learning.

Moriancamur: Can you convert the rest of the LDS to your views ? Maybe then I'll feel at home again.

[California]

Moriancamur: Can you convert the rest of the LDS to your views ? Maybe then I'll feel at home again.

You would feel at home again if you stopped trying to start the Church of Ruski.

[moriancamur]

You would feel at home again if you stopped trying to start the Church of Ruski.

Why do you want to reduce someones personal battles they are honest enough to expose to a sinister yearning for power? Does his logic scare you? Does it hit a nerve or pose a threat to the castle you have built to protect your world? If not please stop the personal attacks and discuss the issues.

[Kenngo1969]

The ultimate claim to "truth" in Mormonism is based on a feeling. "Read this book and pray...if you are 'sincere,' you will get an answer that it is true." How does this answer come? A feeling.

Forgive me if this point has already been addressed. I donâ??t have the stamina to read through the entire thread, and I must relinquish the computer Iâ??m using in a few minutes. I donâ??t think itâ??s very useful to couch decisions regarding truth claims in terms of feelings, although feelings certainly may be a part of the answer. Disaffected members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and non-members like to seize upon this one aspect of conversion and derisively launch into a chorus of â??Feeeee-lings! Nothing more than feeeee-lings â?¦ Feeee-lings, Whoa-whoa-whoa, feeeee-lings â?¦â? But, I digress.

I think itâ??s more useful to talk in terms of good fruit. I believe the Savior when he asked if my earthly father, being evil, still knows how to give good gifts to me as his child, how much more would my Heavenly Father know to give good gifts to me, as well. I donâ??t believe one gathers grapes of thorns or figs of thistles, and I donâ??t believe my earthly father (or my Heavenly Father, for that matter) would give me a stone if I asked for bread or a serpent if I asked for fish. I hold the convictions I do because they have born abundant good fruit, bread, and fish in my life. I believe those convictions, properly applied and adhered to, would do much the same for anyone else. (I know that's not always the case, but that's not for me to judge: Inasmuch as men do good, whether in the Church of Jesus Christ or out of it, they shall in nowise lose their reward.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Why do you want to reduce someones personal battles they are honest enough to expose to a sinister yearning for power? Does his logic scare you? Does it hit a nerve or pose a threat to the castle you have built to protect your world? If not please stop the personal attacks and discuss the issues.

I would say the point wasn't necessarily about power, but of a desire to have all of God's truth align with out own personal biases. If I expected God to bend to my will I might see it differently. I have to take care not to project my biases onto the Lord; idolatry in the true sense; self-worship.

[ruski_canuk]

I would say the point wasn't necessarily about power, but of a desire to have all of God's truth align with out own personal biases. If I expected God to bend to my will I might see it differently. I have to take care not to project my biases onto the Lord; idolatry in the true sense; self-worship.

LOP: But I'm not speaking for God (nor claim to). Nor do I want to impose on anybody my conception of deity (or lack thereof). I am just amazed how quickly you guys are so wary (and rightly so) of those who "project their biases onto the Lord" or who are engaging in creating a new religion (as California alleged) when this is precisely what the founder of Mormonism, and his decedents, did and do.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Knowing where I served my mission and the things that I saw, I would probably end up in outer darkness for apostasizing for doubts on history.

[structurecop]

Knowing where I served my mission and the things that I saw, I would probably end up in outer darkness for apostasizing for doubts on history.

I'm sorry, you're going to have to follow up with some detail here. I'll even create a new thread for it. I'd really like to know what you could have possibly seen to give you a sure knowledge of the historicity of the Church.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

I'm sorry, you're going to have to follow up with some detail here. I'll even create a new thread for it. I'd really like to know what you could have possibly seen to give you a sure knowledge of the historicity of the Church.

For one thing, the ruins down in Chiapas, Tabasco, and Campeche, where I was serving my mission kind of testify of these things to me.

There is nothing in SE Mexico or Guatemala that has been discovered that says "Welcome to Zarahemla" (the Maya would read "Ts'alahenla") but one has to note that only an estimated five or ten percent of the ruins down there have been uncovered, and of those five or ten percent, only an average of thirty or forty percent of the discovered ruins lies uncovered for us.

And not just the ruins, but also just looking at the customs of the Maya, Tzeltal, Tzotzil, Ch'ol, Chontal, and Lacandon tribes and how closely they relate to the stories presented in the Book of Mormon are rather astounding. And those of them that convert to the Church are some of the most faithful around...

If I were to all of a sudden deny that which I saw and apostasize from the Church, I'm pretty sure I would end up in outer darkness.

[ruski_canuk]

For one thing, the ruins down in Chiapas, Tabasco, and Campeche, where I was serving my mission kind of testify of these things to me.

There is nothing in SE Mexico or Guatemala that has been discovered that says "Welcome to Zarahemla" (the Maya would read "Ts'alahenla") but one has to note that only an estimated five or ten percent of the ruins down there have been uncovered, and of those five or ten percent, only an average of thirty or forty percent of the discovered ruins lies uncovered for us.

And not just the ruins, but also just looking at the customs of the Maya, Tzeltal, Tzotzil, Ch'ol, Chontal, and Lacandon tribes and how closely they relate to the stories presented in the Book of Mormon are rather astounding. And those of them that convert to the Church are some of the most faithful around...

If I were to all of a sudden deny that which I saw and apostasize from the Church, I'm pretty sure I would end up in outer darkness.

"by what you saw" you mean the ruins, customs of the Maya, Txeltal, etc ?