How Many People Are Currently Leaving The Church Over Historical Issues?

[California]

Not all religions hold the specious claim to transcendental truth. Those that do require some means to obtain that conversion. Yes I am speaking vague since religions achieve these assurances of supreme divine sanction in various ways. If you want to run a survey to check on those religions which claim supreme truth and how their adherents derived that then it would be interesting - do you know of any ?

I just think that you have to accept the fact that you will never and can never know what other people are feeling. You can see the vestiges of something that they feel or think, and you can see the outward proofs of something going on inside of them like tears, for example, but that is all. It's like reading a book. You know what the words on the page are, but you can't really ever know what the writer was feeling at the time of writing it. It's all superficial, and speculative.

The only thing that a person can truly be sure of is what they themselves feel. That is all they completely have access to.

[California]

It affects it because members generally (yes, in my limited experience) are getting their advice about the veracity of the church, and how to determine it's veracity, from the church itself. I'm not speaking of new converts - the approach for them is probably different.

speaking from personal experience, there is usually no difference there. In fact, the way that new members find out is usually more powerful than 15 years of getting told how to feel the Spirit. I know someone personally that knew the BOM was true just by touching it, and she resisted for 2 years, but in the end joined because the feeling to do so was futile, despite her anti-mormon friend's ideas.

I could go on and on and on about situations like that. In fact, I think that the issue of people being told what to do to feel the Spirit is the real issue here, it's almost a dissadvantage to grow up with the church because then some are constantly questioning.

[BigWig]

I think it's a good question, and I have another example that might illustrate the same challenge.

While on my mish, I had an experience that I felt was a miracle. We hadn't had much success for a while, and diligently prayed for guidance. A man's face came to me that I had seen a few weeks earlier while riding my bike to a meeting. I felt inspired to go see him...he had that golden response "I've been praying and waiting for you...." He was baptized a week later. It became the powerful homecoming story that confirmed to everybody the church was true.

Fast forward a few years. I enter grad school where I am the only LDS member in my class. There was one SDA classmate that I became good friends with. We talked religion occasionally, but mostly to compare and contrast. One day at lunch, he "bore his testimony: to me about his conviction. I told him I was quite certain Mormonism was true because of this miraculous event I'd had on my mission. He then told me of his (hadn't heard the details of mine yet), with an almost identical process. He had served his SDA mission to Brazil, and had his "golden" investigator experience that confirmed his "testimony."

Of course mine was more right....LOL!

Years later it became one of the "issues" that sparked my questioning of "spirit," and "God's inspiration." Today, I don't consider myself any particular religious "label." I am a bit of a Universist, and I am comfortable with the possibility that we were both inspired in our "miracles." Whatever "God" or "Spirit" is, I think it's possible for any of us to have these kinds of events. We may misinterpret what is really happening, but I think it is possible...and I certainly don't see any one religion having a corner on the God market.

Thanks for the story. That's a great illustration of what I'm trying (and apparently failing) to say.

I also think the criticism about basing faith on miracles is ill-founded and unnecessary.

Examples:

Did Paul know Jesus was the Christ because he prayed and felt the Holy Ghost or because Jesus appeared to him?

Did Alma the Younger become a great prophet because of the Holy Ghost or because of an angelic ministration?

Did Joseph Smith know that he was called of God because the Holy Ghost told him or because God and Jesus Christ told him?

I think attacking BishopRic's spiritual foundation is unchristian, even if BishopRic has decided that he was mistaken.

[T-Shirt]

Actually, I just think they're making the same mistake as you are.

How so? I do not discount their experience, yet they discount mine. How are these the same?

Suppose truth exists. Now suppose there exists a God who can reveal the truth.

Now suppose two different people believe that God has communicated truth to them. But the truths are different! This is difficult for me to understand. And believe me, I spend a lot of time trying.

I don't worry about what others believe God has revealed to them. I would hope and expect that they would be true to that revelation, if they are confident in it. As for me, I can only act upon my own experience. If I were not confident in my own experience, I might be concerned about what others think.

You and the non-LDS Christian you describe above want to evaluate the revelation based on its method of arrival. This is how I interpret that argument:

"The spiritual witnesses came as responses to different stimuli, and are therefore not comparable."

I just disagree completely.

I do to. This is not what I have said.

T-Shirt

[ruski_canuk]

You know, for someone who is so sure of themselves, you don't seem sure about anything, except the obvious to your eyes, which usually changes over time.

Why do you say I am so sure of myself ? I am not trying to tell you what God is and expecting you to believe me. I am saying that I don't know... Here is what you said:

It's confidence. I know the church is true. My favorite color is blue.

Your statement on the church is a statement about reality. Whether something is in fact true. Your statement about color is a subjective taste. Totally different things. A more humble position would be:

I love the church and it works for me. If it doesn't work for you, that is fine. I respect your opinion and would love to share ideas and opinions with you without calling you names or attacking your character. I know that my spiritual experiences are personal and for me and cannot be used to judge what is best for others.

That is much humbler than calling someone an apostate and telling them that they are arrogant simply because they have a different opinion about the most abstract ideas of life (namely religion).

[ruski_canuk]

The action that brought about the experience is not comparable. I have never said that other's experiences are invalid or inferior. Good grief, is this that hard?

Sigh...I gave you specific examples to illustrate my point, and then you proceed to mix them all up. Oh well, it must be me.

T-Shirt

Suppose a religion tells it's adherents: you can find truth by going to some hot springs all day. In the evening you must do 15 jumping jacks and then spin around in circles for 5 minutes. Finally, go into a very hot sauna for 30 minutes and then listen to your soul. If you feel a rush of energy, it is testimony from God that our religion is right, etc, etc.

Now show me another religion that uses that method of obtaining truth ? Ha! thought so, there are none. Thus our method is superior in terms of finding out truth.

Sure the Mormons pray for a "witness", born agains are well... born again. Catholics talk with mother mary and buddhists build their faith through hours of physical neglect. But those methods aren't the same as our method and so ours is superior...

[T-Shirt]

But those methods aren't the same as our method and so ours is superior...

Ruski, I grow weary of your childish antics. I have never said that my method is superior, never. In fact, I have explicitly said otherwise several times. I cannot understand why you insist on consistently misrepresenting the argument and attributing things to me that I have never said and have specifically disavowed.

I thought, for awhile, that I was just not explaining myself very well, but now, at least in your case, I can say, with confidence, that you are either not reading the posts, or you are intentionally being obtuse.

T-Shirt

[BishopRic]

It has been my experience that it is extemely rare for a traditional Christian to claim that they have sought after and received a personal spiritual witness as to the truth-claims of their religion. The great majority of traditional Christain faiths reject the LDS style of praying for confirming spiritual witnesses of doctrinal issues. In almost all cases, the only traditional Christains who claim to have used the LDS approach are those who are responding to an LDS witness of personal revelation. For example: "You say you've received revelation that the LDS Church is true...well...I've prayed about my church and received revelation that it is true as well."

With that said, if anyone tells me that they have received such a personal spiritual confirmation, I say "Good for you. Follow your heart and may God bless you in your journey." I may respectfully disagree based on my personal view...but there is no way to resolve the issue with any certainty.

More common...but still rare...is when a traditional critic of Mormonism tells me that they prayed about the LDS Church and that God told them it is false. In that case, you just have to respectfully disagree and wish them well in their journey.

Regards,

Six

Thank you...and I wish you well too.

[BishopRic]

This may surprise you, but I think it is possible that both of you were inspired.

T-Shirt

As do I...today.

[ruski_canuk]

Ruski, I grow weary of your childish antics. I have never said that my method is superior, never. In fact, I have explicitly said otherwise several times. I cannot understand why you insist on consistently misrepresenting the argument and attributing things to me that I have never said and have specifically disavowed.

I thought, for awhile, that I was just not explaining myself very well, but now, at least in your case, I can say, with confidence, that you are either not reading the posts, or you are intentionally being obtuse.

T-Shirt

Oh cmon T-Shirt - just because this is a mis-comm isn't reason to jump to those conclusions (that I am stupid or not genuine). Please just explain what exactly it is you want.

I thought you wanted specific examples of religions that use the same methods Mormons do (go, think about it, pray about it, get a witness, now believe). My point was that you probably won't find a religion that uses the precise same methodology (in terms of letter of the law) but that you will find tons that use the same basic principle (non-physical evidences to support belief in a particular religion). It seems the train that takes you to your supernatural explanation for truth is probably based on things like culture, etc. Anyways, if I have misunderstood you, please tell me, I don't want to be stupid or disingenuous

[ruski_canuk]

Ruski, I grow weary of your childish antics. I have never said that my method is superior, never. In fact, I have explicitly said otherwise several times. I cannot understand why you insist on consistently misrepresenting the argument and attributing things to me that I have never said and have specifically disavowed.

I thought, for awhile, that I was just not explaining myself very well, but now, at least in your case, I can say, with confidence, that you are either not reading the posts, or you are intentionally being obtuse.

T-Shirt

Also, I promise that I am not being childish (or at least not trying to be). I am as serious as serious can be! My wife does tell me that I will never grow up however... You should have seen me sailing today in gale force winds! Now that was a childish antic! (I almost put her and I in the water many times, don't sail in gale force winds when you have only gone 10 times...)

[BishopRic]

I just think that you have to accept the fact that you will never and can never know what other people are feeling. You can see the vestiges of something that they feel or think, and you can see the outward proofs of something going on inside of them like tears, for example, but that is all. It's like reading a book. You know what the words on the page are, but you can't really ever know what the writer was feeling at the time of writing it. It's all superficial, and speculative.

The only thing that a person can truly be sure of is what they themselves feel. That is all they completely have access to.

I, for one, agree completely here. That is why you will never see me arguing with another's experience. I might presume they are interpreting things a bit weird, but I can't argue with their feelings -- and I would expect others to respect mine.

[T-Shirt]

Oh cmon T-Shirt - just because this is a mis-comm isn't reason to jump to those conclusions (that I am stupid or not genuine).

Being "intentionally obtuse" doesn't mean that you are stupid, i means that you are pretending to not understand the argument.

Please just explain what exactly it is you want.

This is not about what I want. I find in incomprehensible, after all that I have written, that you continue to claim that I believe my spiritual experiences are "superior". I have never said this and have specifically spoke against it, several times. Why do you persist? If you think what you have said is truthful than please show us, otherwise you can retract the statement and apologize.

T-Shirt

[BigWig]

Being "intentionally obtuse" doesn't mean that you are stupid, i means that you are pretending to not understand the argument.

This is not about what I want. I find in incomprehensible, after all that I have written, that you continue to claim that I believe my spiritual experiences are "superior". I have never said this and have specifically spoke against it, several times. Why do you persist? If you think what you have said is truthful than please show us, otherwise you can retract the statement and apologize.

T-Shirt

Really? He seems to be quite sincere. He's admitted that he may have misunderstood you and attempted to reach an understanding.

T shirt, I apologize for not understanding your point. Please hold our Russian friend blameless.

[ruski_canuk]

Being "intentionally obtuse" doesn't mean that you are stupid, i means that you are pretending to not understand the argument.

This is not about what I want. I find in incomprehensible, after all that I have written, that you continue to claim that I believe my spiritual experiences are "superior". I have never said this and have specifically spoke against it, several times. Why do you persist? If you think what you have said is truthful than please show us, otherwise you can retract the statement and apologize.

T-Shirt

Ok, when I get home, I'll sift through your posts - you had one where you said something which I interpreted to the effect "while I think others are having genuine, powerful, experiences, ultimately they are not about finding (the highest level of) truth." In effect I thought you meant that those experiences are lesser in terms of determining which religion is true as they don't follow the same pattern as the LDS method. You then asked people to provide an example of a religion that uses the same methodology as the LDS. I was trying to point out that this is ridiculous as every religion will have its own methodology.

If you believe that LDS experiences are not superior to the experiences in other religions for determining the validity of the religion, well, then we agree.

I have tried twice now to clarify. I will need some help if we want this conversation to continue.

If the LDS retracted the claim to superior spiritual authority, I would cease persisting at once. If you have "spoken against it" than we are in full agreement about the outrageousness of this position.

[T-Shirt]

Ok, when I get home, I'll sift through your posts

Here, I'll help you:

BishopRick said:

Seriously, I know you will claim yours is more "right" than theirs, but how can you really know?

T-Shirt responded:

I would never make such a claim. In fact, I believe that if a person believes, sincerely, that the Lord has revealed to them that their Church is true, then they should be true to that witness.

In case anyone is confused, let me make this as clear as I can. I believe that Catholics, Muslims, Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and many others have spiritual experiences, even profound spiritual experiences. I do not believe that my spiritual experiences are any more valid or better than theirs.

I do not view the Mormon's experience as, in any way, superior to the other's.

While these are all examples of spiritual experiences, and none is superior to the others, they are not equal in comparison.

I have never said that other's experiences are invalid or inferior

but that does not make the other person's experience any less valid to him then mine is to me.

T-Shirt

[ruski_canuk]

What does this have to do with the topic?

In case anyone is confused, let me make this as clear as I can. I believe that Catholics, Muslims, Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and many others have spiritual experiences, even profound spiritual experiences. I do not believe that my spiritual experiences are any more valid or better than theirs. This is not the argument. When a Momon claims to have had a spiritual confirmation that his Church is true or that the Book of Mormon is true, the critic asks why his experience is any more valid than the same experience had by those of other faiths. This is a different argument and this is what I am asking you to support with evidence. I am unaware of any other mainstream Church that encourages study and prayer in order to specifically gain a spiritual confirmation that their Church is true. If there are others I would like to know. In fact, as I have already shown, many Christian churches specifically preach against such a thing, so unless any of you can provide evidence otherwise, you are comparing apples and oranges.

T-Shirt

I think this it.

I am unaware of any other mainstream Church that encourages study and prayer in order to specifically gain a spiritual confirmation that their Church is true. If there are others I would like to know.

.

The way I interpret this is that you can't compare those other religions because they use a different methodology (they don't necessarily emphasize study and prayer to get a spiritual witness, called the holy ghost, to back up the truth claims of the missionaries). Therefore, our religion is unique. It has a unique, superior, approach for finding truth. Other methods aren't so direct and hence are less valid for truth.

If this is not the substance of what you meant, please clarify why you think it is improper to compare the religions' methods of building faith in their own dogmas.

[T-Shirt]

Okay, I will try one more time, but I don't know if it will do any good.

1 - If a critic claims that a Mormon spiritual experience is no better than a spiritual experience of any other faith, I will whole heartedly agree.

2 - If a Mormon says, "I know the Church is true because I asked God and He gave me a witness of the spirit that it is true.", and then a critic says, "What about a Jehovah's Witness or a Muslim or an Evangelical that says the same thing.", I say, this is not a valid comparison because, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims and Evangelicals do not pray and ask God if their church is true, in fact many of these specifically teach that this is not a valid way to know if a Church is true, which I have already shown to be true.

3 - This has nothing to do with superiority or arrogance, it is simply a statement of how the comparison in a certain situation is not valid. It would be like me saying, "My wife cooks the best pork in the world.", and you saying, "What about an Orthodox Jew's wife". Since an Orthodox Jew doesn't cook pork, it is not a valid comparison.

4 - I have asked for anyone to show examples from the teachings of other faiths that would prove me wrong, but, as of yet, no one has done so.

If this doesn't clear it up, then I guess the problem is with me. Maybe someone else who understands and agrees with me can explain it better.

Best regards,

T-Shirt

[battlefieldboy]

Makes sense to me T-Shirt.

I would guess with all the different Christian Offshoot churches there are in the US there is statistical possibility of at least one of those churches having members pray to know for themselves that the workings of their church is true.....but I don't know this as a fact so I do accept what you say as valid.

But I don't speak for the other ex members on this post. LOL

[T-Shirt]

Makes sense to me T-Shirt.

I would guess with all the different Christian Offshoot churches there are in the US there is statistical possibility of at least one of those churches having members pray to know for themselves that the workings of their church is true.....but I don't know this as a fact so I do accept what you say as valid.

But I don't speak for the other ex members on this post. LOL

Thanks BFB, my forehead is getting sore from banging it on my desk.

Just so we are clear, I am not saying you cannot find a single non-LDS person who has had a comparable experience, but I am saying that no other mainstream Church, Christian or otherwise, that I am aware of, teaches or advocates such a thing.

T-Shirt

[Anijen]

gone

[Abulafia]

It has been my experience that it is extemely rare for a traditional Christian to claim that they have sought after and received a personal spiritual witness as to the truth-claims of their religion. The great majority of traditional Christain faiths reject the LDS style of praying for confirming spiritual witnesses of doctrinal issues. In almost all cases, the only traditional Christains who claim to have used the LDS approach are those who are responding to an LDS witness of personal revelation. For example: "You say you've received revelation that the LDS Church is true...well...I've prayed about my church and received revelation that it is true as well."

With that said, if anyone tells me that they have received such a personal spiritual confirmation, I say "Good for you. Follow your heart and may God bless you in your journey." I may respectfully disagree based on my personal view...but there is no way to resolve the issue with any certainty.

More common...but still rare...is when a traditional critic of Mormonism tells me that they prayed about the LDS Church and that God told them it is false. In that case, you just have to respectfully disagree and wish them well in their journey.

Regards,

Six

It has been my experience BSix, that you are utterly wrong in your assumption. I have never met a devout member of another religion whether it be christian or not, that was not utterly convinced that their belief system was closest to God's will. Simple as that. The most powerful testimony I heard on my mission was that of a Catholic Monk. I will never forget it.

As a point of interest. The Church of England over here has a program called the Alpha Course. At the end of the course people are invited to a weekend convention. Here they are encouraged to feel the spirit and witness that Jesus is Lord and Saviour. Apparantly emotions run very high at these events in terms of spiritual witnessing.

As a student I met many a methodist (the kindest of which was my college chaplain), presbyterian and the local CSA (Christian Student Assocation) who were utterly convinced that they were following Jesus' authentic Gospel, to the extent that as a believer in the Book of Mormon, I was excluded from joining.

Mary

[LifeOnaPlate]

As a point of interest. The Church of England over here has a program called the Alpha Course. At the end of the course people are invited to a weekend convention. Here they are encouraged to feel the spirit and witness that Jesus is Lord and Saviour. Apparantly emotions run very high at these events in terms of spiritual witnessing.

But Jesus is the Lord and Savior. Why wouldn't the Spirit testify to that?

[Legalbryan]

From the LDS perspective, I think many of us find it bewildering that people would not take James' advice to heart and go to the Lord about important issues, such as "of the 12,000 different bibles and translations, which is true?" or any other similar doctrinal difference or question. My brother e-mailed a picture to me of a marquee from a baptist church that held the words "Don't pray about the Book of Mormon, that's how they get you." To many LDS this is the height of hilarity. It is uncomprehensible to us why someone would not ask God if something as bold as the BOM is true or not. With this being said, to conclude that one cannot feel the spirit in their own church or worship is patently false as well. The spirit of the Lord is available to all who seek it.

[LifeOnaPlate]

From the LDS perspective, I think many of us find it bewildering that people would not take James' advice to heart and go to the Lord about important issues, such as "of the 12,000 different bibles and translations, which is true?" or any other similar doctrinal difference or question. My brother e-mailed a picture to me of a marquee from a baptist church that held the words "Don't pray about the Book of Mormon, that's how they get you." To many LDS this is the height of hilarity. It is uncomprehensible to us why someone would not ask God if something as bold as the BOM is true or not. With this being said, to conclude that one cannot feel the spirit in their own church or worship is patently false as well. The spirit of the Lord is available to all who seek it.

That sign is a hoax. It is meant to be a joke. Google "church sign generator" and you'll get the info.

That being said there are those who literally say "do not pray about it." Our own JRG, the Baptist poster, has explained this admonition to me.