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The Greek Word "sugkleronomos" - Joint-heir


e=mc2

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This is for Johnny mostly, since he asked, I deliver.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The word â??heirâ? in Greek is kleronomos {klay-ron-om'-os} which means 1) one who receives by lot, an heir 1a) an heir 1b) in Messianic usage, one who receives his allotted possession by right of sonship 2) one who has acquired or obtained the portion allotted to him.

The word â??joint-heirsâ? is the Greek sugkleronomos {soong-klay-ron-om'-os} which means 1) a fellow heir, a joint heir 2) one who obtains something assigned to himself with others, a joint participant .

1 Corinthians 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. Here, Johnny, is where the word â??allâ? is found in relation to be heirs. ALL are yours, since we are Christâ??s, and Christ is God. I see no exceptions used here. Robertsonâ??s Word Pictures even notes this - â??The wealth of the Christian includes all things, all leaders, past, present, future, Christ, and God. There is no room for partisan wrangling here.â?

Galatians 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Notice, an HEIR OF GOD. What does God have to give us? You tell me.

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Notice this! Christ is an heir of all things and we are joint-heirs. You tell me, what is Christ? What does he possess? And what does that mean for us? The Greek is kleronomon panton, and again I find Robertsonâ??s Word Pictures to be extremely revealing about this concept:

Heir of all things (kl

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My good pleasure. Thanks for the nice words. I also have that new podcast on just this topic where I explore a gent named Finch in that new book called Theosis: The Christian Idea of Deification, which our beloved David Waltz turned me onto. The article is really well done, and I find a ton of it jives quite nicely with the LDS views. So, I did a podcast on it for my Trinity series, because it's the LDS doctrines of Deity that supposedly make us not Christian, but heathen or pagan or what-have-you. Well I find much of the same ideas in the Early Church Father Irenaeus, and Finch's analysis of it is masterful! And the book just came out last year, so it's the most recent analysis on this wonderful topic.

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This is for Johnny mostly, since he asked, I deliver.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The word â??heirâ? in Greek is kleronomos {klay-ron-om'-os} which means 1) one who receives by lot, an heir 1a) an heir 1b) in Messianic usage, one who receives his allotted possession by right of sonship 2) one who has acquired or obtained the portion allotted to him.

The word â??joint-heirsâ? is the Greek sugkleronomos {soong-klay-ron-om'-os} which means 1) a fellow heir, a joint heir 2) one who obtains something assigned to himself with others, a joint participant .

1 Corinthians 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. Here, Johnny, is where the word â??allâ? is found in relation to be heirs. ALL are yours, since we are Christâ??s, and Christ is God. I see no exceptions used here. Robertsonâ??s Word Pictures even notes this - â??The wealth of the Christian includes all things, all leaders, past, present, future, Christ, and God. There is no room for partisan wrangling here.â?

Galatians 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Notice, an HEIR OF GOD. What does God have to give us? You tell me.

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Notice this! Christ is an heir of all things and we are joint-heirs. You tell me, what is Christ? What does he possess? And what does that mean for us? The Greek is kleronomon panton, and again I find Robertsonâ??s Word Pictures to be extremely revealing about this concept:

Heir of all things (kl

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Interesting Jersey Girl, but ultimately no. We are heirs of the Kingdom, including all its powers, glories, and abilities of Christ and God (at least according to Irenaeus). What will we *do* with those abilities, sit around and sing for eternity? Not likely. Good to see ya again!

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Interesting Jersey Girl, but ultimately no. We are heirs of the Kingdom, including all its powers, glories, and abilities of Christ and God (at least according to Irenaeus). What will we *do* with those abilities, sit around and sing for eternity? Not likely. Good to see ya again!

This question may seem off topic but it's not. What does the 666 in Revelation represent and how do you interpret it?

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This question may seem off topic but it's not. What does the 666 in Revelation represent and how do you interpret it?

If I may, the number 666, actually they have found the number to be 616, corresponds to the Hebrew system of counting which uses letters instead of numbers. The corresponding letters to 666 spelled out Neron or Nero recividus. Even if the more current 616 is used it still spells out Nero. Some have suggested the numbers represent Domitian, another Roman emperor that persecuted the early saints. Nero still ranks as number one in the field of persecution so great, in fact, that years after his death the Christian community feared that he wasn't really dead, but will come to terrorize the saints again, hence, the diabolical connections between 666/616 and satanic control.

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If I may, the number 666, actually they have found the number to be 616, corresponds to the Hebrew system of counting which uses letters instead of numbers. The corresponding letters to 666 spelled out Neron or Nero recividus. Even if the more current 616 is used it still spells out Nero. Some have suggested the numbers represent Domitian, another Roman emperor that persecuted the early saints. Nero still ranks as number one in the field of persecution so great, in fact, that years after his death the Christian community feared that he wasn't really dead, but will come to terrorize the saints again, hence, the diabolical connections between 666/616 and satanic control.

Thank you, Enemy Ace. I agree with what you've presented here. Irenaeus did not. Irenaeus asserted, among other things, that the number stood for the age of Noah.

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Interesting Jersey Girl, but ultimately no. We are heirs of the Kingdom, including all its powers, glories, and abilities of Christ and God (at least according to Irenaeus). What will we *do* with those abilities, sit around and sing for eternity? Not likely. Good to see ya again!

How can you use the phrase "ultimately no" and "at least according to Irenaeus" in the same sentence? Wouldn't it be a better idea to read the Bible for what it actually says than rely on the speculative assertions of an apologist? It's interesting to do so, though I can think of many other instances where Irenaeus would fail to meet your theological approval.

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How can you use the phrase "ultimately no" and "at least according to Irenaeus" in the same sentence? Wouldn't it be a better idea to read the Bible for what it actually says than rely on the speculative assertions of an apologist? It's interesting to do so, though I can think of many other instances where Irenaeus would fail to meet your theological approval.

I'd say the Greek translation is very unequivocal, unless we want to assume that Jesus indeed does not have "all that the Father hath." It makes no restrictions, JG.

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The Bible teaches that Christ is the heir to the Kingdom of God. That we are join heirs to the Kingdom. That Christ was involved in creation has little if anything to do with being joint heirs to the Kingdom, nor does it imply that we will be creators ourselves.

The difference is between location and ability.

But we are creators. No parent who has lived can deny their power to create. No architect or construction worker can deny the power they have to create. Its inherent in human beings to create and desire to create.

Kind of a side issue, how do we become Joint heirs and how is Christ an Heir if the Father lives forever? No one has heirs till they die.... Just something Ive been wondering for a while.

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Kind of a side issue, how do we become Joint heirs and how is Christ an Heir if the Father lives forever? No one has heirs till they die.... Just something Ive been wondering for a while.

If that is a problem that is another thing Mormon theology solves. God turns over the world to Christ.

The Bible teaches that Christ is the heir to the Kingdom of God. That we are join heirs to the Kingdom. That Christ was involved in creation has little if anything to do with being joint heirs to the Kingdom, nor does it imply that we will be creators ourselves.

The difference is between location and ability.

Define Kingdom of God.

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e=mc

I appreciate the exegesis...I am baffled how clearly it is, yet how difficultly it is accepted. To add to your point, I think an illustration of the matter is found in Revelations:

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

(New Testament | Revelation 3:21 - 22)

Clearly, the throne of the Father is now the throne of the Son...and the throne promised to us is the throne of the Son...being the same throne--that of the Father's.

And then I like 22, as well. My paraphrase..."Is this really that hard to understand people?"

:P

PacMan

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And then I like 22, as well. My paraphrase..."Is this really that hard to understand people?"

Excellent summation...considering that this has to be the greatest truth ever to be lost...it is almost chilling to read the last verse in the Chapter, almost a warning, for something that is so easy to understand.

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But we are creators. No parent who has lived can deny their power to create. No architect or construction worker can deny the power they have to create. Its inherent in human beings to create and desire to create.

Kind of a side issue, how do we become Joint heirs and how is Christ an Heir if the Father lives forever? No one has heirs till they die.... Just something Ive been wondering for a while.

An heir in Israelite law would inherent the laws and goods of his father in a co-owner meaning. Death is not a prerequisite. If you can remember the promise made to Abraham of acquiring all that he sees in heaven and sands of the earth is akin to the same promise.

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Jersey Girl:

Wouldn't it be a better idea to read the Bible for what it actually says than rely on the speculative assertions of an apologist?

I cooda swore I posted a bit of the scriptures with the Greek and explanations. :P

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There does seem to be something really interesting here. Not only do all become heirs with Jesus, but joint-heirs with Christ IF we suffer what he did. That seems to be a suggestion of two separate inheritances, but because of the construction of the sentences showing correlation between the two it would appear they are inseparable. Any answers?

Jersey Girl:

I cooda swore I posted a bit of the scriptures with the Greek and explanations. :P

I agree. I've read and reread this passage a whole bunch of times and I cannot find a different meaning than the one that has been presented. Maybe it's time we jump out of the box.

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If I may, the number 666, actually they have found the number to be 616, corresponds to the Hebrew system of counting which uses letters instead of numbers. The corresponding letters to 666 spelled out Neron or Nero recividus. Even if the more current 616 is used it still spells out Nero. Some have suggested the numbers represent Domitian, another Roman emperor that persecuted the early saints. Nero still ranks as number one in the field of persecution so great, in fact, that years after his death the Christian community feared that he wasn't really dead, but will come to terrorize the saints again, hence, the diabolical connections between 666/616 and satanic control.

Actually, I believe that 616 results in Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus. It still works as far as time frame (and enemy of the Christians), but I don't think that 616 can give Nero.

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e=mc2,

Oh excellent scripture Pacman! Crimany I forgot all about it. Barker also has some interesting points about it. Yer paraphrase is choice! :P

The other scripture in Rev that's cool is in chapter 2:

28 And I will give him the morning star.

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

It doesn't work real well for non-LDS, but what is the morning star? Well...it's the sun--an obvious representation of the Father's throne. And then as we noted in the other chapter, vs. 29....the parallels are not only poetic, but tremendously illustrative of something that "Christianity" hasn't got a clue about.

Rev 2-3 are most interesting...I wrote a paper on it sometime back but never did anything with it because it treaded (trode?) so finely on temple content. I ended up ditching it but made a lot of marks in my scriptures so I wouldn't forget the meat of it.

Essentially, each letter contains a similar pattern of "I know," "Remember," and encouragement to stay faiful. They each have unique imagery...and all end with the same line of "He that hath an ear..." What is the Spirit really saying to the churchs? If I were to take a guess, it'd be: "Be faithful and don't forget your covenants because here comes the apostasy...your reward is greater than anything you'll have to face."

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

What things are going to die? Reading these chapter in context of an apostasaic warning, one can see great sadness in John's writing...almost wondering if it'll do any good. To the Laodiceans, John writes:

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Amen?

Even to the faithful Ephesians he says, "thou hast left thy first love."

And to Smyrna:

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Now...the interseting thing is that it is written to the "angel of the church of Smyrna," and not to the church. It seems that these "angels" are those to be cast into prison, tried, and have tribulation. Clearly, these most faituful are going to die away...and what's left?

PacMan

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Actually, I believe that 616 results in Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus. It still works as far as time frame (and enemy of the Christians), but I don't think that 616 can give Nero.

Sorry to disagree, but upon further reading I found this...

When Nero Caesar's name is transliterated into Hebrew, which a first-century Jew would probably have done, he would have gotten Neron Kesar or simply nrwn qsr, since Hebrew has no letters to represent vowels. â??It has been documented by archaeological finds that a first century Hebrew spelling of Nero's name provides us with precisely the value of 666. Jastrow's lexicon of the Talmud contains this very spelling.â?5 When we take the letters of Nero's name and spell them in Hebrew, we get the following numeric values: n=50, r=200, w=6, n=50, q=100, s=60, r=200 = 666. â??Every Jewish reader, of course, saw that the Beast was a symbol of Nero. And both Jews and Christians regarded Nero as also having close affinities with the serpent or dragon. . . . The Apostle writing as a Hebrew, was evidently thinking as a Hebrew. . . . Accordingly, the Jewish Christian would have tried the name as he thought of the nameâ??that is in Hebrew letters. And the moment that he did this the secret stood revealed. No Jew ever thought of Nero except as â??Neron Kesar.â??â?6

The fragment supports the reading of some Greek New Testament manuscripts that read 616 instead of 666. Why would someone making a copy of the Revelation scroll make such a number change? â??Perhaps the change was intentional, seeing that the Greek form Neron Caesar written in Hebrew characters (nrwn qsr) is equivalent to 666, whereas the Latin form Nero Caesar (nrw qsr) is equivalent to 616.â? A Latin copyist might have thought that 666 was an error because Nero Caesar did not add up to 666 when transliterated into Latin. He then changed 666 to 616 to conform to the Latin rendering since it was generally accepted that Nero was the Beast. In either case, a Hebrew transliteration nets 666, while a Latin spelling nets 616. Nero was the â??manâ? and either 666 or 616 was his number

Greek_beast.jpg

Hebrew_666.jpg

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My good pleasure. Thanks for the nice words. I also have that new podcast on just this topic where I explore a gent named Finch in that new book called Theosis: The Christian Idea of Deification, which our beloved David Waltz turned me onto. The article is really well done, and I find a ton of it jives quite nicely with the LDS views. So, I did a podcast on it for my Trinity series, because it's the LDS doctrines of Deity that supposedly make us not Christian, but heathen or pagan or what-have-you. Well I find much of the same ideas in the Early Church Father Irenaeus, and Finch's analysis of it is masterful! And the book just came out last year, so it's the most recent analysis on this wonderful topic.

Oh Great One Who is Wiser than I....

My Oxford Study Bible (New English Version) renders 1 Peter 1:3-4 thusly...

"God's divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and true

religion, through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and

goodness. In this way he has given us his promises, great beyond all price,

so that through them you may escape the corruption with which lust has

infected the world, and may come to share in the very being of God."

That last phrase, "come to share in the very being of God," intrigues me.

Not being conversant in the Greek, I would ask for your comments and if this

relates to what you have posted here.

Bernard

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Ooooooooooooo!

Ahem, the greatness which inhabits my being is, I assure you, a mere twit compared to all others here, but it's a loud twit! <_<

It's really late right now, and I gotta work early in the morning out in the sun all day, let me get back with you tomorrow night if'n I may please, and in the mean time perhaps if someone else also has some ideas, they can share.

Best,

Lord "not nearly as great as Unka Dale, that is not as great around the old belly!" :P Kerry

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Kerry,

In query to

a gent named Finch in that new book called Theosis: The Christian Idea of Deification, which our beloved David Waltz turned me onto.

Where can his book be found? I have looked in almost every source. Thanks.

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