The Greek Word "sugkleronomos" - Joint-heir

[Doctor Steuss]

Sorry to disagree, but upon further reading I found this...

[...]

Thanks for hooking that up EA. I'm gonna have to do some re-digging then. All I know is that David Parker (professor of New Testament Textual Criticism and Paleography at the U of Birmingham in England) believes the 616 to refer to Caligula.

[Ron Beron]

Thanks for hooking that up EA. I'm gonna have to do some re-digging then. All I know is that David Parker (professor of New Testament Textual Criticism and Paleography at the U of Birmingham in England) believes the 616 to refer to Caligula.

Given the history of these emperors it could've referred to almost any of them.

[Ron Beron]

I found it in the God forbidden, brain dead, wacko, wanna be scholars bookstore at BYU last weekend when I visited the pseudo scholar hack imp Bill "and I am no butthead dammit!" Hamblin.........

Given the fact that the drive from SoCal would be a bit rough on the backside could you give his full name and perhaps the publisher for those of us who hug our chairs? Thanks.

[Sargon]

There does seem to be something really interesting here. Not only do all become heirs with Jesus, but joint-heirs with Christ IF we suffer what he did. That seems to be a suggestion of two separate inheritances, but because of the construction of the sentences showing correlation between the two it would appear they are inseparable. Any answers?

I agree. I've read and reread this passage a whole bunch of times and I cannot find a different meaning than the one that has been presented. Maybe it's time we jump out of the box.

If this is Paul teaching that our works really do mean something, then slap me and call me a heretic.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

May the slapping begin.

Sargon

[cjcampbell]

One thing that I think gets lost in debates like this is that it is easy to attribute a precision of meaning to every word and phrase that the original speaker might not have intended. I may once again be accused of anti-intellectualism when I say this, but it is something that I think must be said. I am just an old guy who has traveled all over the world and listened to how people actually talk. I have never met anyone who is that precise in what he has to say and I dare say that no one was ever that precise.

There are still places in the world where people who live on one side of the hill cannot understand the language of people who live on the other side of the hill. You can walk a few kilometers down any road in the Philippines (or the rest of Asia, for that matter), or India, or Africa, or even in the Middle East and parts of Europe where people living practically next door to each other cannot understand on another in their native tongues. People in such places often use a third language, such as English, Chinook Jargon or Swahili to communicate with one another. Yet their use of such third languages is rarely perfect and may often be unintelligible to a native speaker of that third language. Although the Middle East was Roman and the official language was Latin, and everybody spoke their own languages at home, Greek served as the lingua franca of the time. However, I would be surprised if everybody spoke flawless Greek or if even the Greeks spoke flawless Greek.

Jesus and the people he associated with probably spoke Aramaic (we really do not know for this for certain, but some people -- and I hesitate to use the word 'scholars' -- take it for granted). Greek was certainly not Paul's native tongue, nor probably was it Luke's, either. Paul, in a typical letter (and he must have written hundreds of them), probably never dreamed that one day people would be sitting around trying to parse the finest shadings of meaning from every word he wrote in a language that was not even his own tongue.

No native speaker of any language speaks his tongue flawlessly. People in real life use all kinds of shortcuts, local idioms, poetic licenses, puns, turns of phrase, etc., that might not be perfect grammar. I am sure that when Jesus said "Thou art Cephas, and upon this rock" he got a few chuckles for a clever twist of phrase and a good pun. But did it mean any more than that? If Jesus knew that people within the lifetime of his own apostles people would be killing one another in disputes over what he meant by that, would he still have said it? I think he did know, but he also knew that such disputes were inevitable, so he said it anyway.

Similarly here with Paul. Paul may have been fluent in Greek, Luke even more so, but writing in a language that was not their own for the convenience of people who spoke yet another language. Is it not stretching things just a little to build a mountain of argument based on the fine shadings of meaning of a single word? Paul hears a phrase that others use. He uses it himself, perhaps mistakenly, but perhaps not. Can anyone say for sure? Paul is communicating a general idea -- a broad concept. I think he could not have cared less what the finest shadings of a particular word were as long as he was able to get the general idea across.

[Sargon]

Here Johnny, in case you missed it.

This is for Johnny mostly, since he asked, I deliver.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The word â??heirâ? in Greek is kleronomos {klay-ron-om'-os} which means 1) one who receives by lot, an heir 1a) an heir 1b) in Messianic usage, one who receives his allotted possession by right of sonship 2) one who has acquired or obtained the portion allotted to him.

The word â??joint-heirsâ? is the Greek sugkleronomos {soong-klay-ron-om'-os} which means 1) a fellow heir, a joint heir 2) one who obtains something assigned to himself with others, a joint participant .

1 Corinthians 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. Here, Johnny, is where the word â??allâ? is found in relation to be heirs. ALL are yours, since we are Christâ??s, and Christ is God. I see no exceptions used here. Robertsonâ??s Word Pictures even notes this - â??The wealth of the Christian includes all things, all leaders, past, present, future, Christ, and God. There is no room for partisan wrangling here.â?

Galatians 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Notice, an HEIR OF GOD. What does God have to give us? You tell me.

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Notice this! Christ is an heir of all things and we are joint-heirs. You tell me, what is Christ? What does he possess? And what does that mean for us? The Greek is kleronomon panton, and again I find Robertsonâ??s Word Pictures to be extremely revealing about this concept:

Heir of all things (kl

[Neighbor]

Getting a bit outlandish here, so be forewarned:-)

When the saints of God appeared in the OT, was that us?:-)

[cksalmon]

Oh Great One Who is Wiser than I....

My Oxford Study Bible (New English Version) renders 1 Peter 1:3-4 thusly...

"God's divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and true

religion, through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and

goodness. In this way he has given us his promises, great beyond all price,

so that through them you may escape the corruption with which lust has

infected the world, and may come to share in the very being of God."

That last phrase, "come to share in the very being of God," intrigues me.

Not being conversant in the Greek, I would ask for your comments and if this

relates to what you have posted here.

Bernard

Hi Bernard--

I think that's from 2 Peter (1:3-4), rather than from 1 Peter.

Best.

CKS

[PacMan]

CK:

What is the EV understanding of some of the scriptures previously noted from Revelations, about sitting in the throne of Christ, which is the throne of the Father? How is being a co-heir with Christ anything less than receiving a like portion of all that the Father has?

PacMan