September Dawn

[William the Conqueror]

I saw Voight being interviewed last night on the O'Reilly factor. He called those massacred 'christians'. Then O'Reilly mentioned Mitt Romney on a somewhat positive note. They showed a clip of the movie with John Voight wearing a black suit. I'll have to explore the trailer to see whom he portrays in the film.

[Daniel Peterson]

For what it's worth, my mendacious and malevolent stalker over at the Shades Obsession Board claims that at least somebody here feels positively about the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

I don't recall ever seeing anything here to that effect, but, of course, I could be mistaken. Unlikely as it is, my stalker could, for once, actually be telling the truth. I mean, it's not totally inconceivable . . .

Anyway, if such a massacre fan actually exists, I hope that he or she will come forward. Don't be shy! If you believe that the Mountain Meadows Massacre was a good thing, say so!

[SlackTime]

For what it's worth, my mendacious and malevolent stalker over at the Shades Obsession Board claims that at least somebody here feels positively about the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

I don't recall ever seeing anything here to that effect, but, of course, I could be mistaken. Unlikely as it is, my stalker could, for once, actually be telling the truth. I mean, it's not totally inconceivable . . .

Anyway, if such a massacre fan actually exists, I hope that he or she will come forward. Don't be shy! If you believe that the Mountain Meadows Massacre was a good thing, say so!

If I can get the moderators to give me permission to make a sock-puppet, I'll be glad to come on and pretend it's a good thing...

Will that help?

-SlackTime

[Tarski]

I think just for the sake of disrupting the movie, I'll go see it.

See it, i use lightly. I'll probobly go and start laughing uncontrollably at the parts where its extreme bias/exaggeration.

And can determine this instantly because you "know the facts" and are not yourself biased in any way. Right?

[Daniel Peterson]

If I can get the moderators to give me permission to make a sock-puppet, I'll be glad to come on and pretend it's a good thing...

Will that help?

That might be my mendacious and malicious stalker's only hope.

But then, I don't really think that accuracy is high on his list of values. He's almost certainly losing no more sleep over this particular false allegation than over his many others.

So you needn't bother.

[soren]

This is a new one to me. I did a search for "I am God on this earth" in the JoD and it didn't pull up any hits.

I remember there was a thread devoted to another BY "quote" from the film ("I am the voice of God. And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down."). Thanks to the sleuthing of Smac, one potential source for this quote appears to come from a "Letters to the editor" to Sandra Tanner and was never actually spoken by BY. I personally wouldn't expect the quotes in the movie to be any more accurate than those in any other Hollywood film "based on a true story."

What is somewhat troubling (IMO) though is that Christopher Cain (the director) claimed in a New York Times article that he didnâ??t write any of the dialogue for BY (which makes me wonder just what his â??sourceâ? is for some of the quotes).

Edit: Here's the Smac sleuthing thread -- http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=22219

I am suspicious of the "God on this earth" line, but even if Young said it, that would no be without precedent among prophets. Consider Exodus 7:1: "Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet."

As the mouthpiece of God, a prophet is in a way god on earth. This sentence like this need not imply in itself a usurpation of dinvine authority, but an investiture thereof.

[kawikadave]

I saw Voight being interviewed last night on the O'Reilly factor. He called those massacred 'christians'. Then O'Reilly mentioned Mitt Romney on a somewhat positive note. They showed a clip of the movie with John Voight wearing a black suit. I'll have to explore the trailer to see whom he portrays in the film.

Here's is the transcript from O'Reilly:

With us now is Ms. Jolie's father, Academy Award winning actor Jon Voight, whose new film coming up on June 22 is "September Dawn".

But this movie is going to be controversial, because it deals with a massacre allegedly ordered by Mormon leaders â?? Mormon leaders â?? back in 1857, and there's a Mormon running for president.

Is Mitt Romney going to like this movie?

JON VOIGHT, ACTOR: Well, so far he hasn't seen the movie. And I think â?? and most of the Mormon community has avoided seeing it, because they don't want to get into a discussion of it.

And as a matter of fact, when I first read the film, when somebody sent me the script to do it...

O'REILLY: Yes.

VOIGHT: ... I found it this horrifying story, you know, shocking. I had no idea that this had happened 150 years ago, ironically enough on September 11 a story about religious fanaticism.

O'REILLY: Interesting. You have that connection.

VOIGHT: Yes. So when I saw â?? what I saw in it was the ability to see the anatomy of religious fanaticism, using a religion to â?? as a rationale to murder people.

O'REILLY: And it was â?? the basic premise is that the West was being settled in 1857 and people were coming across Utah. And the Mormons didn't want them coming across Utah, right.

VOIGHT: Well, there's â?? at that moment there was a lot of paranoia in the Mormon community. There were a lot of things going on in the Mormon community.

O'REILLY: Because President Buchanan wanted them to basically not have polygamy and all that kind of stuff, right?

VOIGHT: Many things were going on with them. And their characterization of this innocent wagon train of Christian people moving to California was such that they set to attack them. And they tried to get the Indians to do it. And then they took a hand and did it themselves.

O'REILLY: There was 157 dead?

VOIGHT: Hundred and twenty something.

O'REILLY: Yes. All right. So I mean, I feel sorry for Mitt Romney in a way. I don't think anybody should vote for anybody for religious purposes at all. Romney is a good man.

VOIGHT: He is.

O'REILLY: He ran the commonwealth of Massachusetts...

VOIGHT: The irony is that Mitt speaks very eloquently about the dangers we face with religious fanaticism from the....

O'REILLY: So the theme of the movie is religious fanaticism. It's a cautionary tale.

VOIGHT: Yes.

O'REILLY: OK.

By reading the rest of his comments, it appears his politics are fairly conservative and would match up closely with your typical Utah/North American Mormon.

I think his comment that "...most of the Mormon community has avoided seeing it, because they don't want to get into a discussion of it" is funny since the film won't be released for two more months. Maybe they're offering private showings at my stake center and I just didn't get the word.

It always bugs me when people condemn a movie based on hearsay and assumptions. It is very possible that the movie gives a more balanced view than we are expecting. Maybe they mention the stress the members were under, the history of the members to that point, etc etc.

Based on what is in the trailer, the movie web site, and Voight and Cain's comments on O'Reilly and elsewhere it is designed to be an expose of religious fanaticism and violence.

Does that sound like a factual documentary type production where they show all sides of the story? I don't think so. When you carry a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[spunky_christine]

Terrance Stamp plays oh I can't remember his name... the guy on Star Wars I: The Phantom Menace... you know the one that gets voted out of the Senate...

Christine

[soren]

Terrance Stamp plays oh I can't remember his name... the guy on Star Wars I: The Phantom Menace... you know the one that gets voted out of the Senate...

Christine

Chancellor Valorum.

He also played Zod in "Superman II."

[soren]

Here's is the transcript from O'Reilly:

By reading the rest of his comments, it appears his politics are fairly conservative and would match up closely with your typical Utah/North American Mormon.

I think his comment that "...most of the Mormon community has avoided seeing it, because they don't want to get into a discussion of it" is funny since the film won be released for two more months. Maybe they're offering private showings at my stake center and I just didn't get the word.

Based on what is in the trailer, the movie web site, and Voight and Cain's comments on O'Reilly and elsewhere it is designed to be an expose of religious fanaticism and violence.

Does that sound like a factual documentary type production where they show all sides of the story? I don't think so. When you carry a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

't

As a member of the Church that was targeted by the "The Da Vinci Code," I would like to extend to the Church of Jesus Chrsit of Latter-day Saints my sympathy.

[Doctor Steuss]

't

As a member of the Church that was targeted by the "The Da Vinci Code," I would like to extend to the Church of Jesus Chrsit of Latter-day Saints my sympathy.

Indeed. If there is a religion that knows what it is like to be misrepresented in the film industry, and to have beliefs maligned... it is the RCC.

[Scott Lloyd]

How very mature of you. Aren't you proud to call yourself a adult, good mormon? If you don't want to see it, don't go. Grow up child.

It's called levity. As in "not to be taken seriously."

Lighten up, grandma.

[All-Seeing Eye]

I have not seen this movie and will not ever see it due to its R rating, but I have seen the trailer and read up on it. This is one of the most disgusting hit pieces I have ever seen and unlike the pathetic little video that was sent to Mormon homes this will be in major theaters. Just to give the briefest of descriptions I will site what I saw in the trailer. 1. A crazy Brigham Young played by Terence Stamp who's often overboard acting has nearly earned him a Razzy. You might recognize him from My Bosses Daughter. 2. Temple ordinances being mocked and shown in part of the cover-up of the massacre. 3. Dean Cain as Joseph Smith do I need to say more? This movie is the most biased and offensive take on this horrible event from what I have seen. Just thought I would through this out there to you scholars.

Temple ordinances being MOCKED! Good heavens!

{edited by mods}

Do tell--how were they mocked?

[Thinking]

I have not seen this movie and will not ever see it...

This is one of the most disgusting hit pieces I have ever seen...

This movie is the most biased and offensive take on this horrible event from what I have seen.

It seems to me that you're the one who's biased since you're judging the movie without seeing it.

[soren]

It seems to me that you're the one who's biased since you're judging the movie without seeing it.

I think caesarmoridon has given justifiable reasons for not seeing it. If it mocks, or even portrays, Temple Ordinances, a Latter-day Sainst has legitimate grounds to conscientiously to not seeing it, and certainly to avoid supporting the filmmakers with his money. It might be important for a Latter-day Saint to acquaint himself with the contents of the film in order to discuss it with people who have seen it, but seeing the film is not a necessary requirement.

[auteur55]

whose new film coming up on June 22

My understanding is that the film is being released this Friday May 4th. Did they push the film back? That would explain the lack of buzz for the film. Jon Voight on the O'Reilly is the first i've heard of the film being discussed in the media.

If it is having it's national release this Friday then the film may very well fizzle away into obscurity very quickly.

[auteur55]

For what it's worth, my mendacious and malevolent stalker over at the Shades Obsession Board claims that at least somebody here feels positively about the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

I don't recall ever seeing anything here to that effect, but, of course, I could be mistaken. Unlikely as it is, my stalker could, for once, actually be telling the truth. I mean, it's not totally inconceivable . . .

It might have come from the IMDB message board for the film where whenever a member says anything defending Brigham Young they are told they are justifying the Massacre.

In fact the board has turned real ugly rather quickly with one person claiming Brigham Young "spit" on the dead bodies of the murdered.

The phrase "the book of moron" is also being tossed around quite a bit.

[rick7475]

Sort of a scary test for how much bigotry there still is against Mormons in the land of the free of the 21st century.

[Helmuth]

Helmuth:

Moro. 10: 3-4

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Ahh, but did you write that from memory?

If so, I'm impressed you got the semi-colon.

[soren]

In fact the board has turned real ugly rather quickly with one person claiming Brigham Young "spit" on the dead bodies of the murdered.

I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this, since I have never seen the citation in context, but this story may originate in Wilford Woodruff's journal entry about President Young's visit to the site of the massacre several years later. As I have read, the feds had placed a monument, I think in the shape of a cross, facing in the direction of Salt Lake City. On it was inscribed Rom 12:9 "Vengeance is mine and I will repay." Young ordered the monument destroyed and remarked, "It should say, 'Vengeance is mine and I have taken a little.'"

Again, I emphasize that I have not read the journal entry that is the reported source for this, and do not draw any conclusion from it. Only it might explain why people make the claim you mentioned.

[juliann]

An "ouch" of a review for a one star movie...

http://www.slantmagazine.com/film/film_review.asp?ID=2925

Yet the clunky, heavily skewed means by which this tale is presented is nothing short of egregious, with its Mormon characters demonized with such laughable gusto, and its Christian victims cast in such a holy, noble light, that the project quickly feels less like an attempt at historical truth-telling than like shameless anti-Mormon propaganda. Mastermind and holy prophet Brigham Young (Terence Stamp) spews bloodthirsty Joseph Young-inspired fire and brimstone, Bishop Jacob Samuelson (Jon Voight) rails on about how the visitors are abominations (one of the women wears a gun!) who are intent on driving the Mormons from their lands, and Samuelson's son Micah (Taylor Handley) drools like a wild animal as he partakes in the carnage while disguised in Native American garb. This cartoonish demonization persistently seems tied to a religious-political agenda, as well as comes off as an easy way to provide bad guys for the hokey Romeo and Juliet romance between Samuelson's older boy Jonathan (Trent Ford) and gentile Emily (Tamara Hope), a courtship that amounts to one my-religion-vs.-your-religion conversation and a hilarious come-hither look from a river-bathing Emily to her sweet Mormon hunk. The narrative is given specious modern parallels by the highlighted fact that the massacre took place on September 11th, and its schematic good-vs.-evil structure is fortified by Cain's camera set-ups (low for the wicked Mormons, eye-level for the benevolent immigrants). Also, it's virtually impossible to take seriously a film whose main contentions can be wholly gleaned from its characters' facial hairâ??of which Voight's bushy arch-villain goatee is surely the cheesiest.