September Dawn

[mocnarf]

Movies bashing Mormons will always be around. Just like movies bashing most major religions are around

True, but I bet you can't name any movies that bash Islam, some religious people are more willing to do what ever it take to protect their religion from bigots. There are alot more movies that bash Catholic beliefs and there are that bash Mormon beliefs. But then again Catholics will not go to the extremes to defend their religion from non-believers. If you are not willing to silence your oposition then you will have to endure their tauntings.

[caesarmoridon]

"By your logic to know that Playboy is pornographic I would need to see it for myself."

Well, by your logic ... wait ... I don't see the logic in that analogy.

Obviously logic and reason are foriegn concepts to you. May I suggest watching some Star Trek and focusing on the Vucan characters. That is a joke by the way in case you didn't get it.

I do need to ask a few more things. are you stupid or just being difficult? I mean really you do understand that Playboy is a pornographic work, right? You didn't have to open a copy to realize that did you? Are you reading one now? I know you need to feel your guilt for your ancestors who were involved with this horrible event, but you should cut them some slack due to the obvious tragedies and horrors they themselves faced in events like the Hans Mill Massacre. Also just because your family was involved does not mean you need to impune Brigham Young with your guilt. You are entitled to your biased opion as wrong as it may be. Why don't you try reading on the subject and come up with your own conclusions. It does appear that you have strong opinions on this matter and that you "feel" the need to voice your opinion here. That is fine. That is why we are here. I do take serious offense at your implication that Brigham Young was at fault and ordered the massacre. You are wrong. If this is not your opinion you should not be defending this horrible movie and I am sorry for suggesting that it is your opinion.

I would like to state that I didn't bring up this topic to discuss the Mountain Meadow Massacre but to inform on a movie that is biased. You have definantly failed to prove it otherwise and have felt the need to bring in personal attacks against me to the which I have responded in like kind. This is not what I wanted and it grieves me the hostility you have brought in your ridiculous comments. Please try to keep your comments on this matter too point not to your whimsy.

[auteur55]

Flashback show Mormonâ??s cutting off a manâ??s testicles and nailing them to a cabin wall as justified punishment, as well as cutting the throats as if they were sheep of any who disobey.

I'd like to see the footnote for this.

[kawikadave]

I'd like to see the footnote for this.

Did you watch the trailer? They had BY spouting all kinds of imaginary crap.

They have an agenda. They get to have the characters say whatever they want - whatever fits their preconceived notion of Mormon zealots gone wild with blood lust. There will be no footnotes for this movie.

[Catholic Girl]

Hmmmmmm. Welcome to the club?

Anti-Catholicism is very American. Hollywood perpetuates it and encourages it.

There are dozens upon dozens of Hollywood movies that misrepresent or outright bash Catholics and/or the Church. I tried looking for a list of titles, but didn't come across one in my brief search. It would be interesting to see how many there actually are.

Here are some:

Of course, The Da Vinci Code

The Last Temptation of Christ

The Saint

The Order

The Magdalene Sisters

Saved

Primal Fear

Priest

Monsignor

Agnes of God

Chocolat

Last Rites

The Three Musketeers

Godfather III

Nasty Habits

Stigmata

Life of Brian

Dogma

Elizabeth

King Arthur

Pope Joan to be released

[kawikadave]

I feel for you Catholic Girl. I really do.

Know that when movies like Dogma come around, they offend all believing people, not just Catholics. I think we are seeing the first shots in an all-out war on religious beliefs of any kind. It will be like the Dark Ages in reverse, I believe.

[Ray Agostini]

According to the producer:

Cain says he was drawn to the project because "it so closely resembles the religious fanaticism the world is seeing today. People were killed in the name of God 150 years ago and they're still being killed in the name of God." Voight shares the same opinion about the film's relevancy as Cain.

I don't know of any Mormons killing in the name of God. This is a film about "religious fanaticism" 150 years ago which purports to demonstrate the evils of current religious fanaticism? I smell a rat.

[juliann]

Did you watch the trailer? They had BY spouting all kinds of imaginary crap.

They have an agenda. They get to have the characters say whatever they want - whatever fits their preconceived notion of Mormon zealots gone wild with blood lust. There will be no footnotes for this movie.

It will be interesting to see how many movie critics fall for this without ever questioning sources. The massacre happened, of course. There probably isn't a way to make it look worse than it was. But they are putting words in BY's mouth with no support whatsoever. But what's new? You would think that they will eventually hit a critical mass where they have misused everyone and no one takes them seriously anymore. We can dream.

What I think would make a good movie, however, is an expose of the people who make movies. Just think of the scary, fanatic stuff...and they wouldn't even have to make it up.

[Ray Agostini]

From the trailer:

And the reputation of one of this nation's mightiest religious figures has been preserved and protected. ON MAY 4 THE TRUTH WILL BE REVEALED

Hollywood truth, that is. According to Juanita Brooks, no apologist for the MMM:

"The completeâ??the absoluteâ??truth of the affair can probably never be evaluated by any human being; attempts to understand the forces which culminated in it and those which were set into motion by it are all very inadequate at best."

Have no fear, Hollywood has evaluated it, and we will find out the truth on May 4.

[AndyOne]

"It will be interesting to see how many movie critics fall for this without ever questioning sources... they are putting words in BY's mouth with no support whatsoever."

Juliann - you may want to do a little research yourself about the source of the BY quotes used in the film.

[Darth_Bill]

I am curious about Brigham Young shouting "I am God on this earth" a couple of times in the movie. I'm also curious if anyone actually took him seriously, considering the nature of mormonism.

[kawikadave]

"It will be interesting to see how many movie critics fall for this without ever questioning sources... they are putting words in BY's mouth with no support whatsoever."

Juliann - you may want to do a little research yourself about the source of the BY quotes used in the film.

Why don't you provide sources for the quotes shown in the trailer? Please provide the exact quote from the trailer and then a source where BY said the same thing.

[captain-jack]

"It will be interesting to see how many movie critics fall for this without ever questioning sources... they are putting words in BY's mouth with no support whatsoever."

Juliann - you may want to do a little research yourself about the source of the BY quotes used in the film.

Before questioning someone else's opinion on it, whether they state it as fact or not, please provide your own fact with credited transcripts and such or your words will be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not saying I have any evidence either way, but I choose not to believe it. I wasn't there, and I don't care to think that a movie could portray any historical event with more than a sliver of truth. I love World War II movies, but I know they've been dramatized. If you honestly take this movie to have any fact, than I feel sad. Dogma was a funny movie, but I don't think in any way that it portrays the Catholic church is fair in any respect. I thought it was funny, but it doesn't mean it was right. Nor would I believe that kind of thing would happen. And I would like Catholic Girl to know that I know I shouldn't like it, but it was funny at some points. But there were parts that I couldn't choke down what they were saying, plus any movie with Jay and Silent Bob is just going to be a bash fest.

----------------

I did forget to add, since we're all generalizing here about Mormons from this movie, that this is the same Hollywood who is obsessed with and is going nuts over Anna Nicole Smith and not knowing who her child's father is because she had multiple partners.

[thesometimesaint]

Have no fear.

Americans don't know much ABOUT RELIGION

Author, others say many in this country are ignorant about Christianity -- and other religions, too.

BY SUSAN CAMPBELL

Hartford Courant

Quick: Name the Four Gospels. How about the Ten Commandments? The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism? Seven Catholic Sacraments? Hello? Anybody?

America purports to be a religious nation, yet what we know about religion is, well, sinful. In his new book, "Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know -- And Doesn't," Stephen Prothero, head of Boston University's religion department, says it's time to teach religion in America -- not devotion, but religion.

Prothero and others have found a shocking lack of knowledge about the religions to which Americans purport to belong, bested only by their ignorance of religions to which they don't belong. Surveys say only half of America's adults can name any of the four Gospels. Most Americans can't name the first book of the Bible. Only one-third know that Jesus (not Billy Graham) delivered the Sermon on the Mount, and most Americans think Jesus was born in Jerusalem. (It was Bethlehem.) Yet, writes Prothero, "World events have been shaped by Confucian ritual, Jewish law, Christian love and Buddhist compassion."

In this country, Christianity, in particular, has migrated from doctrinal and narrative components to a focus on religious experience that doesn't appear to require a knowledge of the Scriptures, says Prothero.

"Being a Christian has become synonymous with having a born-again experience or opposing abortion and stem-cell research," he said. "American Christians focus on loving Jesus rather than learning what he taught."

In his research, Prothero said he was surprised to learn that the U.S. government pays little attention to religion when forming foreign policy. That observation got a big laugh March 19, when Prothero appeared on "The Daily Show With Jon Stewart."

For example, Prothero said, "U.S. ambassadors to Muslim-majority countries are typically political cronies who have no training in Islam. And there is no policy of having our ambassador to India, say, know something about Hinduism. This is a scandal."

The problem is not hypocrisy, says Prothero, so much as ignorance.

"When I give my students the religious-literacy quiz that's in my book, I find Catholics who don't know the Seven Sacraments, Protestants who can't name any of the four Gospels and Jews who can't name the first book of their Bible. That doesn't make them pseudo-religious. It just makes them believers who don't really know what they are believing in," he said.

Prothero was raised Episcopalian in Osterville, Mass. During college, he flirted with evangelical Christianity. "But," he said, "I had a lot of friends who were atheists, agnostics and Jews, and I finally found the imperative to try to convert them too much to bear.

"Today, I'm happy to be in a position where I have more questions than answers when it comes to my personal faith."

In "Religious Literacy," Prothero confesses to rather haphazard attendance of Lutheran church. In fact, in one anecdote from the book, he asked his 8-year-old daughter to name someone in the Bible besides Jesus. She thought a moment and said, "Tom." He decided to give her that one; perhaps she enjoys a closer relationship than most with Thomas, one of the apostles, known for his doubting.

He suggests religion be added as the fourth "R" in American education. (A recent Time magazine echoes his suggestion for teaching the Bible, the historical best-selling book ever, in schools.)

After all, Prothero says, the Constitution doesn't prohibit teaching about religion. It bans teaching a particular religion.

"I think we need to take religion seriously, and I'm optimistic that we will learn to do so in the public schools," he said.

He credits Sept. 11 as an altar call for public acknowledgment of the importance of religion.

"I think there (is) now a fairly high level of public resolve to do something about our ignorance," he said. "Moreover, the momentum is building. Most Americans are in the middle when it comes to the so-called culture wars. We hear about the wacky folks on the secular left (who fear almost any discussion of religion in the schools) and on the religious right (who want their religion to be the only religion taught in the schools). But the vast majority of us are in between, and that is where the hope lies."

[AndyOne]

"Why don't you provide sources for the quotes shown in the trailer? Please provide the exact quote from the trailer and then a source where BY said the same thing."

This is an assinine request. I'm not the one who claimed they were included with no support. From what I understand, they were largely pulled from BY's own testimony.

Look - this is a historical event, it was a terrible event, the exact facts surrounding it are not known and subject to speculation (and, accordingly, differring interpretations). It's fair game for a film, book, whatever. Unless there's a demonstrated bias in the film with no support in the historical record (and I don't mean support beyond a reasonable doubt - most historical interpretation requires some speculation and inference), I view the reactions here as overly persecution-complex driven.

[mocnarf]

I'd like to see the footnote for this.

Remarks made by Brigham Young and Jedediah M. Grant during the Mormon Reformation of 1856 led to speculation that a doctrine called "blood atonement" had been put into practice.

On February 8, 1857, Young taught:

"Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved in the kingdom of our God and our Father and being exalted, one who knows and understands the principles of eternal life, and sees the beauty and excellency of the eternities before him compared with the vain and foolish things of the world, and suppose that he is taken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin he knows will deprive him of the exaltation he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin, and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but would say, 'shed my blood that I might be saved and exalted with the Gods?' All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood?...I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them. The wickedness and ignorance of the nations forbid this principle's being in full force, but the time will come when the law of God will be in full force."[7]

Statements by Jedediah M. Grant

On September 21, 1856 (the same day as Young's sermon), second counselor Jedediah M. Grant stated:

â??I say, there are men and women that I would advise to got to the Presidency immediately, and ask him to appoint a committee to attend to their case; and then let a place be selected, and let that committee shed their blood. We have those amongst us that are full of all manner of abominations, those who need to have their bloodshed, for water will not do, their sins are too deep a dye. You may think that I am not teaching you Bible doctrine, but what says the apostle Paul? I would ask how many covenant breakers there are in this city and in this kingdom. I believe that there are a great many; and if they are covenant breakers we need a place designated, where we can shed their blood. Talk about old clay; I would rather have clay from a new bank than some that we have had clogging the wheels for the last nineteen years. They are a perfect nuisance, and I want them cut off, and the sooner it is done the better... Brethren and sisters, we want you to repent and forsake your sins. And you who have committed sins that cannot be forgiven through baptism, let your blood be shed, and let the smoke ascend, that the incense thereof may come up before God as an atonement for your sins, and that the sinners in Zion may be afraid. These are my feelings, and may God fulfil them.â?[9]

[Catholic Girl]

I am curious about Brigham Young shouting "I am God on this earth" a couple of times in the movie.

I wondered about this, too. I've never heard this quote from BY before this trailer. Did he really say this?

[oats]

Joseph Smith's 'I have more to boast of than any other man' quote is a pretty good one liner to throw to people who 1) have no understanding of what Joseph Smith is talking about, 2) his history, and 3) history of what he is referring to.

The same as Brigham's one liner 'I am god on this earth', or whatever it is. It is used for the initial shock value, and that wouldn't happen if people knew LDS doctrine at all.

[Doctor Steuss]

I wondered about this, too. I've never heard this quote from BY before this trailer. Did he really say this?

This is a new one to me. I did a search for "I am God on this earth" in the JoD and it didn't pull up any hits.

I remember there was a thread devoted to another BY "quote" from the film ("I am the voice of God. And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down."). Thanks to the sleuthing of Smac, one potential source for this quote appears to come from a "Letters to the editor" to Sandra Tanner and was never actually spoken by BY. I personally wouldn't expect the quotes in the movie to be any more accurate than those in any other Hollywood film "based on a true story."

What is somewhat troubling (IMO) though is that Christopher Cain (the director) claimed in a New York Times article that he didnâ??t write any of the dialogue for BY (which makes me wonder just what his â??sourceâ? is for some of the quotes).

Edit: Here's the Smac sleuthing thread -- http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=22219

[Helmuth]

Regarding the ignorance on religion brought up by TheSometimeSaint, it made me think of this somewhat interesting article: 4 Types of Biblical Experts. A couple quotes:

"Most people can't quote two verses from the Bible and when they meet a person who carries a Bible and can quote five verses they come away impressed thinking, â??Wow! That person really knows the Bible.â? Little do they realize that most of the time that is all the Scripture-quoting individual can quote! Of course, the Bible-quoter is not going to tell him that's all he knows. After all, he has an image to project and protect. If a person disagrees, the Bible-quoter demands to be shown evidence to the contrary. He realizes most people do not have the answers on hand. If in the unlikely event that he meets an individual who is well versed in the Scriptures, he knows to leave well enough alone and stops meeting with him for the purpose of conversion."

"This ignorance is why missionaries of the Mormon church and the Jehovah's Witnesses are so successful in projecting the image of being â??biblical expertsâ? despite they may only be familiar with a hundred biblical passages. The very act of quoting the Bible imbues this mystique, and these missionaries develop self-confidence in their belief-systems since the odds of meeting a Christian knowledgeable enough to pose a threat to their faiths is minuscule, around one in a thousand."

[thesometimesaint]

Helmuth:

Moro. 10: 3-4

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[Jolard]

This movie could be absolutely awful, but we need to refrain from judging it until some of us actually see it. It always bugs me when people condemn a movie based on hearsay and assumptions. It is very possible that the movie gives a more balanced view than we are expecting. Maybe they mention the stress the members were under, the history of the members to that point, etc etc.

Now that said, if it comes out and is incredibly biased against the Church, then sure, lets object. But objecting sight unseen is a little bit ridiculous.

[Log]

Need I remind anyone of Orgasmo? I think sometimes circumstantial evidence is sufficient to start criticising.

[Stargazer]

I have not seen this movie and will not ever see it due to its R rating, but I have seen the trailer and read up on it. This is one of the most disgusting hit pieces I have ever seen and unlike the pathetic little video that was sent to Mormon homes this will be in major theaters.

Personally, I really liked Red Dawn. Probably a much better film, all in all, and quite a visionary work, too.

[captain-jack]

"Why don't you provide sources for the quotes shown in the trailer? Please provide the exact quote from the trailer and then a source where BY said the same thing."

This is an assinine request. I'm not the one who claimed they were included with no support. From what I understand, they were largely pulled from BY's own testimony.

Look - this is a historical event, it was a terrible event, the exact facts surrounding it are not known and subject to speculation (and, accordingly, differring interpretations). It's fair game for a film, book, whatever. Unless there's a demonstrated bias in the film with no support in the historical record (and I don't mean support beyond a reasonable doubt - most historical interpretation requires some speculation and inference), I view the reactions here as overly persecution-complex driven.

How do we know that's what he said in his testimony? Provide evidence please. You have said that it is from his testimony, but don't provide anything to support it. If you wish to call that an asinine request, please don't respond with an asinine statement. I don't want to offend, but don't give the impression that, "I can't support my statement so you can't ask for proof".