Should Mormons Include Weapons In Their Preparedness?

[Severian]

That is a great idea and totally practical. Thumbs up for weapons.....any suggestions on what weapons would be best?

An assortment of weapons would be best. On the heavy end, mortars and ion cannons could help deter large groups of marauders lurking on the fringes of your compound. It would be good to have the perimeter loaded with land mines. Fixed position rapid fire artillery is a must in defending the wife (or wives), the kids and the Gospel. Next, it would be good to have each member of the family equipped with side arms. Don't forget, pass the ammunition and the Sacrament!

[MorningStar]

I have an arsenal of dirty diapers and I'm prepared to use them.

[thesometimesaint]

MorningStar:

Truly a WMS. Weapon of Mass Stink.

[grego]

As to the initial question; I don't believe weapons are necessary--no church leaders have ever suggested this and I don't believe in placing my trust in the "Arm of Flesh".

Have you ever placed your trust in a doctor or dentist--other forms of "arm of flesh"?

[smac97]

I think Jeff Lindsay's article, Mormons and Militias?? LDS Culture is not tied to the militia movement, may be work a quick read. He discusses how Mormons have never been taught to stockpile weapons, and that Mormons have virtually nothing to do with militias and other groups that do stockpile weapons. He also mentions a comments by Spencer W. Kimball and Dallin H. Oaks:

The purpose of the Church is - and always has been - to bring souls to Christ. It does so through helping individuals and families to live the Gospel of Christ. There is nothing in the teachings of the Church to encourage the stockpiling of weapons, but there are many warnings against those who trust in weapons. For example, in 1976, Church President Spencer W. Kimball warned that we have have become a "warlike society" that equates war with patriotism. He said the national quest for security in weaponry was a form of idol worship and urged all people to turn their hearts to Christ, not to armies and weapons. More recently, Elder Dallin H. Oaks, one of the Twelve Apostles of the Church, spoke to hundreds of local priesthood leaders in Milwaukee on April 29, 1995 and warned against the type of extremism that leads people to stockpile weapons and join militia groups. The Church wants nothing to do with the radical militia groups of our day and does not tolerate those who try to use the Church to advance their own political agendas.

That said, I think there is a reasonable difference between having a weapon for self-defense and "stockpiling" weapons in preparation for Armageddon.

-Smac

[MorningStar]

MorningStar:

Truly a WMS. Weapon of Mass Stink.

Hee hee! This past week it was "shock and awe".

[grego]

There is nothing in the teachings of the Church to encourage the stockpiling of weapons, but there are many warnings against those who trust in weapons.

Any other examples that actually do what this sentence claims?

-=-=-=

For example, in 1976, Church President Spencer W. Kimball warned that we have have become a "warlike society" that equates war with patriotism. He said the national quest for security in weaponry was a form of idol worship and urged all people to turn their hearts to Christ, not to armies and weapons.

Whoa! I see Afghanistan and Iraq here, not militias.

-=-=-=

More recently, Elder Dallin H. Oaks, one of the Twelve Apostles of the Church, spoke to hundreds of local priesthood leaders in Milwaukee on April 29, 1995 and warned against the type of extremism that leads people to stockpile weapons and join militia groups. The Church wants nothing to do with the radical militia groups of our day and does not tolerate those who try to use the Church to advance their own political agendas.

Milwaukee! But yes, we don't want Waco happening to us. Thus Janet Reno being invited as a special guest to sit with Pres. Hinckley during the Freedom Festival in Provo a few years back.

[Cold Steel]

First, if society melts down without the Zion society we've been assured of, having a firearm and food supply will only help for a small time. The church is here, in part, to provide the temporal salvation we'll need to get through those days. We'll need the revelation to the leaders of the church and the power of the priesthood to eventually create order out of chaos.

Certainly guns have to be secured from children, but then, we must secure medicines and poisons, electrical devices and pay attention when they're in a swimming pool. In earlier days, even children knew how to responsibly handle and use firearms. Only in modern times have parents bought into the notion that firearms have to be kept out of the hands of children entirely.

In a nationwide disaster, what will happen to the violent criminals in our prisons? Will they be unleashed on society? Do you really trust your leaders to keep them detained if they have no food to feed them or men to guard them? During the Hurricane Katrina, a number of police officers simply threw away their badges and went to defend and protect their families. In a series of national disasters I think we can expect the same thing.

No, guns won't be much good for hunting, but they do make good weapons for defense. And if you've ever been defenseless against hardened criminals, it can make you see life from an entirely different perspective. I also had a good friend who was attacked by a cougar in broad daylight. Fortunately, he had a .357 magnum in a shoulder holster and he was able to stop it before it reached him. Subsequent analysis showed the animal was rabid. I wouldn't go camping or hiking in the wilderness without one. A good .22LR pistol with a few boxes of ammo also make a great additon to a bugout bag.

[Cold Steel]

That's all we need. A bunch of idiots with firearms running around.

Great quote. Who said it? Hitler? Stalin?

People can make up their own minds on whether to keep and have firearms or any other weapons. It's stupid to talk about mortars and nuclear weapons. It's like someone asking if they should have a first-aid kit and telling them they should open a hospital or a medical center.

One freedom Americans have that few others do in the world is the freedom to keep and bear arms. Because we know the Constitution is an inspired document, I'd like to think the Second Amendment is there for a reason. People use firearms every day in acts of legitimate uses of self defense. One of the last acts of Joseph Smith was to defend those in the room from the volley of bullets coming through the door, when all he had was the equivilent of a Saturday Night Special.

No one is talking about hoarding weapons, any more than we're to hoard food. The trick is finding a happy medium.

Now please get real, ladies and gents, and cease with the ridiculous comments.

[Catholic Guy]

Great quote. Who said it? Hitler? Stalin?

People can make up their own minds on whether to keep and have firearms or any other weapons. It's stupid to talk about mortars and nuclear weapons. It's like someone asking if they should have a first-aid kit and telling them they should open a hospital or a medical center.

One freedom Americans have that few others do in the world is the freedom to keep and bear arms. Because we know the Constitution is an inspired document, I'd like to think the Second Amendment is there for a reason. People use firearms every day in acts of legitimate uses of self defense. One of the last acts of Joseph Smith was to defend those in the room from the volley of bullets coming through the door, when all he had was the equivilent of a Saturday Night Special.

No one is talking about hoarding weapons, any more than we're to hoard food. The trick is finding a happy medium.

Now please get real, ladies and gents, and cease with the ridiculous comments.

Mega Dittos!

[grego]

Frankly, in light of Cold Steel's post, perhaps it's a responsibility and duty for a good LDS to buy a gun.

The more guns out there, the harder for a govt to pull a takeover of citizens' rights. History has clearly shown that.

But I won't be so bold--today--to say it's what will keep the thread from breaking...

[thesometimesaint]

Cold Steel:

Nope. My firearms instructor who was the chief firearms instructor for New Mexico Highway Patrol.

Most of the Mormons I know don't which end of the firearm is which. Give them one and they will most likely freeze and they've just given the bad guy a gun. If they don't shoot themselves in the foot first.

Firearms Violence - General

1. Deaths: Final Data for 1997, Donna L. Hoyert, PhD; Kenneth D. Kochanek, MA; et al, National Vital Statistics Reports, Vol. 47, No. 19, June 30, 1999.

This publication is an annual report. It includes charts providing the total numbers of firearm deaths, as well as death rates from homicide, suicide, unintentional, and undetermined shootings broken out by age, race, and sex. For comparison purposes, the study provides charts on the 10 leading causes of death.

This publication is free. Call the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) at (301) 436-8500 or write to the NCHS at 6525 Belcrest Road, Hyattsville, MD 20782-2003. Ask to be placed on the NCHS mailing list. The NCHS web site is located at www.cdc.gov/nchs.

Key Facts: In 1997 more than 32,000 Americans were killed with firearmsâ??

* 17,566 in firearm suicides,

* 13,522 in firearm homicides,

* 981 in unintentional firearm deaths,

* 367 in firearm deaths of undetermined intent.

2. Fatal Firearm Injuries in the United States, 1962-1994, Violence Surveillance Summary Series, No. 3, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia.

This report reviews the descriptive epidemiology of firearm-related mortality in the United States from 1962 to 1994. The patterns of overall firearm deathsâ??homicide, suicide, and unintentional deathâ??are examined by race, sex, and age group.

This publication is free. Contact the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control (NCIPC) at: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Division of Violence Prevention, MS-K60, 4770 Buford Highway NE, Atlanta, GA 30341-3724. It may also be ordered on the Internet at www.cdc.gov/ncipc/ncipchm.htm.

Key Facts: During the 33-year period coveredâ??

* The total number of firearm deaths increased by 130% from 16,720 in 1962 to 38,505 in 1994.

* Suicide and homicide account for almost all gun deathsâ??e.g., 94% in 1994.

* The rates for unintentional deaths from firearms have generally declined throughout the study period.

3. Characteristics of Firearms Involved in Fatalities, Stephen W. Hargarten, MD, MPH; Trudy A. Karlson, PhD; et al, JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association), Vol. 275, No. 1, January 3, 1996, pp. 42-45.

This study documents the types of firearms used in firearm fatalities between 1990 and 1994 in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Key Facts: Between 1990 and 1994 in the city of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, researchers found that handguns accounted forâ??

* 89% of firearm homicides,

* 71% of firearm suicides.

4. The Association Between the Purchase of a Handgun and Homicide or Suicide, Peter Cummings, MD, MPH; Thomas D. Koepsell, MD, MPH; et al, American Journal of Public Health, Vol. 87, No. 6, June 1997, pp. 974-978.

This case-control study involving members of a Washington state HMO examines whether purchase of a handgun from a licensed dealer is associated with the risk of homicide or suicide.

Key Facts:

* Members of handgun-owning families were twice as likely to die in a suicide or homicide as members of the same age, sex, and neighborhood who had no history of handgun purchase.

* These increased risks persisted for more than five years after the purchase.

5. Deaths Resulting from Firearm- and Motor Vehicle-Related Injuriesâ??United States, 1968-1991, MMWR (Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report), Vol. 43, No. 3, January 28, 1994, pp. 37-42.

This article compares changes over time between motor vehicle-related deaths and firearm-related deaths.

Key Facts:

* From 1968 to 1991, motor vehicle-related deaths declined by 21%, while firearm-related deaths increased by 60%.

* It is estimated that by the year 2003, firearm-related deaths will surpass deaths from motor vehicle-related injuries. In 1991 this was already the case in seven states (California, Louisiana, Maryland, Nevada, New York, Texas, Virginia) and in the District of Columbia.

6. Protection or Peril? An Analysis of Firearm-Related Deaths in the Home, Arthur L. Kellermann, MD, MPH and Donald T. Reay, MD, The New England Journal of Medicine, Vol. 314, No. 24, June 12, 1986, pp. 1557-1560.

In this early and much-cited study, the authors examined firearm-related deaths in the home during a six-year period (1978 to 1983) in King County, Washington.

Key Fact:

* For every case in which an individual used a firearm kept in the home in a self-defense homicide, there were 1.3 unintentional deaths, 4.6 criminal homicides, and 37 suicides involving firearms.

7. Who Dies? A Look at Firearms Death and Injury in America, Susan Glick, MHS, Violence Policy Center, Washington, DC, February 1999, 36 pages.

This report provides user-friendly access to the most pertinent statistics on gun violence in America for the press, policymakers, and the general public. Who Dies? gives a demographic breakdown of the latest trends in firearm-related injuries and deaths in the U.S., as well as the economic toll of treating gunshot victims. Sources include the National Center for Health Statistics, the FBI, and the CDC.

This publication is $5.00, including shipping and handling. Call the Violence Policy Center at (202) 822-8200 or write to the VPC at 1140 19th Street, NW, Suite 600, Washington, DC 20036. Follow this link to view Who Dies?.

Where did you get that?

Eight Publications Every

Advocate Needs

Firearms Violence - General

Firearms Homicide

Firearms Homicide and

Domestic Violence

Firearms Homicide in

the Workplace

Firearms Suicide

Firearm Deaths of Children

Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries

Costs of Firearms Violence

Firearms and Crime

Firearms Ownership,

Concealed Carrying,

Self-Defense Use, and Gun

Buy-Backs

Analyses of Pro-Gun

Self-Defense Studies

The Gun Lobby - Firearms

Industry and Organizations

Licensed Dealers

Marketing Firearms to

Women and Youth

Appendix One: Organizations

and Agencies

Appendix Two: Understanding

and Using Statistics

[Deborah]

in the famous words of Teddy Roosevelt "Walk softly and carry a big stick."

I think we need to look to the BOM, which after all was written for our day. The people didn't just stand there and let marauders come in and take what they wanted. The took up arms in defense of their families, their homes, and their religion. Should we be expected to do less?

I have an arsenal of dirty diapers and I'm prepared to use them.

Thank you! I needed a good laugh. I would think those would be really good weapons! Imagine the shock alone!

[Severian]

With an ion cannon and a disrupter rifle, one could adequately protect oneself and family. With binary encryption, it should allow safe handling by children, although I hasten to point out that Klingon children are thoroughly versed in the usage of weaponry at a young age, although Bat'leth practice for children under the age of six is discouraged.

[buraianto]

"Speak softly and carry a big stick."

[TrashcanMan79]

If as Priesthood holders we can hold up our arms and whole armies fall down dead.

Can't remember, is this how the Priesthood holders fighting in the Utah War conducted combat?

[BCSpace]

I use my sex appeal as a weapon. Also sarcasm is good.

Lot tried to use the sex appeal of his daughters as a weapon (Genesis 19:8 ). Unfortunately, the enemy was immune....

[Jolard]

I don't really have any problem with someone deciding they want a gun for protection. I won't have one in my house, as the statistics show, you are far likelier to have someone in your home be killed or injured by a gun in the home than to actually use it to defend your home.

That said, I know there are those who prefer the added protection they feel it provides, and that is fine.

What really bothers me is those who indicate they need the gun to protect their stash from the hordes of hungry people. If you are planning on keeping your food storage hidden away while your neighbors starve, that is as far from Christ Like as I can imagine.

Not only would I consider that immoral thinking, but it is also likely illegal. In most major food emergencies, the civilian authorities make it ILLEGAL to horde food. Any food supplies would be requisitioned and divided up amongst the populace. You may HATE this, but it is likely to happen. You would then not only be shooting your starving neighbors, but the government who is likely trying to do the best for all citizens.

It may not seem fair, but it is likely.

Personally I see that our food storage is good insurance, and would most likely be used in a time of personal emergency. i.e. when you are out of a job for a season, etc. If there really was a major disaster and breakdown of food supplies, I would be sharing my food with as many of my starving neighbors as possible, and relying on the Lord to bless me for my charity. I would put my faith in Him.

Anyway, that is just my perspective, I am not saying it is right for everyone, I just can't imagine watching others die while I have another 7 months of food in my house.

[Zakuska]

What really bothers me is those who indicate they need the gun to protect their stash from the hordes of hungry people. If you are planning on keeping your food storage hidden away while your neighbors starve, that is as far from Christ Like as I can imagine.

SCRAT DISAGREES!

[structurecop]

Anyway, that is just my perspective, I am not saying it is right for everyone, I just can't imagine watching others die while I have another 7 months of food in my house.

The Bible is full of parables regarding temporal preparedness for times of famine. Sometimes those who do not heed warnings are punished.

[thesometimesaint]

TrashcanMan79:

Seeing as only one Mule died. Seemed pretty effective to me.

[koakaipo]

Smart gun ownership is good. I don't think it's a real problem solver though with alot of the scenarios given. The gun would result in being a band aid to a gushing wound.

[BCSpace]

My thoughts exactly. If as Priesthood holders we can hold up our arms and whole armies fall down dead. Why do I need a firearm to protect the food storage I don't have?

Considering how great Moroni was (Alma 48:17), one wonders why he didn't just raise up his arms in like fashion. The BoM lesson therefore is, prepare for war just in case.

Even factoring in the likes of say Nephi and Lehi (in 3 Nephi) or Enoch, another overall lesson of the scriptures is, despite great righteousness, it is not always the Lord's will that He does all the work for us.

[alter idem]

Have you ever placed your trust in a doctor or dentist--other forms of "arm of flesh"?

The "Arm of Flesh" I was referring to was the same one which OT prophets condemned and Pres. Kimball referred to in his talk "The False Gods we Worship"--which is depending on our own military might rather than putting our faith and trust in God to protect us. It doesn't have anything to do with doctors, dentists, car mechanics or other trained professionals.

[alter idem]

The Bible is full of parables regarding temporal preparedness for times of famine. Sometimes those who do not heed warnings are punished.

That may be, but I would expect that we should not be the ones to judge who should die of starvation and who should live. I would expect that our religious teachings tell us to love our neighbors as ourselves and share, trusting that God will make our cruse of oil and bag of meal last as long as needed to save us.

I think our church leaders follow this example as well. I don't believe they make any distinctions when sending out aid. If there is need, they try to fill it. They don't withhold help on the premise that the victims may deserve to be "punished".