Should Mormons Include Weapons In Their Preparedness?

[BCSpace]

I don't believe they make any distinctions when sending out aid. If there is need, they try to fill it. They don't withhold help on the premise that the victims may deserve to be "punished".

Happens all the time on a local level. 'Punishment' is not the factor, but if a person is not doing all they can of their own accord (such as looking for work, selling uneeded assests, or reducing wasteful spending) a bishop will often withhold aid.

[BCSpace]

That may be, but I would expect that we should not be the ones to judge who should die of starvation and who should live.

When there is a scarcity of resources or when resources are being threatened, we should be prepared for that kind of judgment. Nowhere is it written that we must die so that another can live. It is our own choice.

[Sethbag]

I'm a support of an individual's right to keep and bear arms. Heaven knows I've excercised this right enough. I'm totally not anti-gun or anything. I handload ammo, I cast lead bullets for my own guns, I own a sniper rifle, a couple of so-called evil "assault rifles", some target guns, etc. Nobody would ever confuse me for a gun grabber. I'm just saying the Doomsday scenario some people imagine, where they will be surviving a post-apocolyptic scenario with their guns, with anarchy and complete societal collapse, is a total pipe dream. And yes, there is something repulsive about the idea of people shooting their starving neighbors while sitting on a stash of food.

When my daughter was just a few years old, she saw me in the basement cleaning a gun, and asked what it was. I said it's a gun, and I gave her some simple rules. I told her she could never touch a gun unless I or her uncle were there and said she could. I told her if she ever finds a gun not to touch it, but to go find an adult and tell them about it. I then asked her if she'd like to touch or hold the gun. She said yes and I let her look at it, right there in my presence. Two or three more times this happened, where we reviewed the rules and she repeated them back to me, and I offered to let her touch and see a gun, and she did. After that, she pretty much lost interest, and she's never had the slightest interest in touching any of my guns since then. Her natural child's curiosity was satisfied in a controlled and safe manner, and so she never was tempted to touch or handle any of my guns when I wasn't around. Since she knew I would always allow her to handle any gun of mine she wanted to, in my presence, there was simply no temptation to do it out of my presence. At least, this worked in our family with my daughter, I cannot say every kid would react just the same as she did.

[alter idem]

I'm not the Bishop, who is set apart as a Judge in Israel to make those kinds of determinations. I'm just a regular member and as such I believe in following the admonition in Mosiah 4:16-18.

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the baggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps though shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misersy: therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor import unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just--

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the Kingdom of god.

BCSpace said : "When there is a scarcity of resources or when resources are being threatened, we should be prepared for that kind of judgment. Nowhere is it written that we must die so that another can live. It is our own choice."

Alter Idem: Yes, resources were scarce when the widow of Zarephath was faced with this life and death choice whether or not to give her last bit of food to Elijah. She chose the irrational and clearly foolhardy option and she got a miracle.

If some would rather depend on their own resources and their own wits and not look to God, or follow his precepts, then I guess it's wise to stockpile weapons and ammo to protect the food storage stash.

[alter idem]

Sethbag, I also am not against guns. My husband and I take our three daughters out target shooting (not live targets though--we are not hunters) when we get the chance and enjoy it. I think it is important that my girls know how to use and have a healthy respect for firearms--and they are pretty good shots.

[BCSpace]

I'm just saying the Doomsday scenario some people imagine, where they will be surviving a post-apocolyptic scenario with their guns, with anarchy and complete societal collapse, is a total pipe dream.

I agree. The senario is highly unlikely.

And yes, there is something repulsive about the idea of people shooting their starving neighbors while sitting on a stash of food.

I don't think that's the senario being presented here. What is being presented is someone actually comming after you for your resources instead of just asking for help. In that case, you are morally justified to shot to kill or shoot to wound or shoot to warn first, whatever you decision is.

BCSpace said : "When there is a scarcity of resources or when resources are being threatened, we should be prepared for that kind of judgment. Nowhere is it written that we must die so that another can live. It is our own choice."

Alter Idem: Yes, resources were scarce when the widow of Zarephath was faced with this life and death choice whether or not to give her last bit of food to Elijah. She chose the irrational and clearly foolhardy option and she got a miracle.

Indeed. But I don't think anyone is positing such a scenario in which one should consider shooting someone who is merely asking or begging for food. If we were speaking of such a case, then Mosiah 4 applies.

If some would rather depend on their own resources and their own wits and not look to God, or follow his precepts, then I guess it's wise to stockpile weapons and ammo to protect the food storage stash.

Being prepared thusly IS looking to God.

[Homestar Runner]

Here is a rather timely article. It's the third article down, "One person, one bucket"

The water had been shut off the day before in Temaâ??a city of 100,000â??and for miles around. No one had had water for about 24 hours, and panic was beginning to brew. We hadnâ??t noticed the problem because the Ghana Missionary Training Center, where I was serving as MTC president, has a large storage tank, and we pumped from that storage whenever we needed water. Even though no fresh water was being added, we were living off our storage.

Also, for some reason, there was still some water in our meetinghouseâ??s outdoor tap (in the same guarded compound), and someone had alerted the masses that the Mormons had water. They were coming from all over with their pails to fetch it. The custodian had beaten me to the meetinghouse and was opposed to letting anyone in. He was sure it was only a matter of a very short time before we would also be without water.

...

I told him that the water might very well run out in our tap, but it would be better if it ran out with a neighborâ??s bucket catching the last drop.

...

We believed the water would stop. Nowhere else in town was anyone getting water. We had everyone join us in prayer and ask Heavenly Father to let this one tap continue producing water for these very thirsty people. The tap never stopped. And the people were so grateful.

Of course, none of the men that decided to share had their families with them...

HSR

[Cold Steel]

Key Facts: In 1997 more than 32,000 Americans were killed with firearmsâ??

* 17,566 in firearm suicides

* 13,522 in firearm homicides,

* 981 in unintentional firearm deaths,

* 367 in firearm deaths of undetermined intent.

Firarm suicides make up about 50 percent of all firearms-related deaths. Firearms homicides include criminals killing criminals, criminals killing non-criminals and citizens killing criminals. There are no statistics to indicate justifiable homicide, neither are there statistics to show how many homicides were prevented with firearms. How many citizens wounded criminals? How many citizens held criminals for the police or chased them away with firearms? How many people in the wilderness areas successfully defended themselves with firearms? Again, no statistics. Finally, how many of the suicides would have found other ways of taking their lives had not firearms been available? No stats available.

Key Facts: During the 33-year period coveredâ??

* The total number of firearm deaths increased by 130% from 16,720 in 1962 to 38,505 in 1994.

* Suicide and homicide account for almost all gun deathsâ??e.g., 94% in 1994.

* The rates for unintentional deaths from firearms have generally declined throughout the study period.

Firarms deaths (including criminals killed by citizens) rose by 130 percent. How much did the population rise? During that period, gun laws increased substantially. Do gun control laws cause increases in gun violence? Also, what changes occured in criminal justice over that same period?

How many times have you watched someone being led away in handcuffs for a violent murder, only to later learn he had a long, violent criminal record, including murder and/or rape, assaults, etc.? Recidivism is a major problem in this country. Murderers and other violent criminals are being released all the time. How many of these gun homicides are committed by repeat offenders?

When I was in school, no one ever came with a gun. Mass murders were unheard of in the schools. Guns were easy to buy and sell, yet they weren't a major problem.

A Department of Justice study conducted back in the '80s by two previously anti-gun researchers showed that when society was broken down in its various cultural elements, gun laws didn't seem to make a difference. Japanese-Japanese had about the same violent crime rates as Japanese-Americans; same for suicide rates. European whites had about the same violent crime rates as white Americans; ditto for suicide rates. It went on and on. The general conclusion is that gun violence is more a cultural happening than it is a random act of passion. Gun laws spanning decades didn't seem to make any difference.

People say, get rid of guns for the children. More children die in swimming pools each year. More children die from medicines and poisons; more from car accidents, and so forth. If you live in a home with a handgun and a flight of stairs, you're more likely to suffer serious injury or death by falling down the stairs than from the handgun.

Guns are used in crimes. They're also successfully used by citizens to protect themselves from crimes. Self defense is a God-given right. Police concentrate on solving crimes, not preventing them. And courts have consistently held that police have no responsibility to protect individual citizens, but only the public at large.

Not long ago, I accidently tripped our ADT alarm and went for a 15-minute walk with my wife. When I returned, the police still had not come. We called ADT, which had already summoned the police and 15 minutes after that, when we called the county to cancel the alert, we were told police still had not been dispatched.

Need I say more?

[structurecop]

Not long ago, I accidently tripped our ADT alarm and went for a 15-minute walk with my wife. When I returned, the police still had not come. We called ADT, which had already summoned the police and 15 minutes after that, when we called the county to cancel the alert, we were told police still had not been dispatched.

Some county sheriff's back up can be as much as 30 minutes away in Maricopa County. That's calling directly on the radio, and MCSO doesn't screw around when an "officer needs assistance" call goes out. Now imagine a private citizen calling in, where a subject may not even yet be physically threatening them. First you have to get an open line to the 9-11 center (not a guarantee, I've had to call several times before to report a shots fired). Then the call taker has to take down your information and relay it to the dispatcher. Dispatcher relays it to the patrol officer, then there has to be an officer free to respond (also not a guarantee, especially if there happens to be a shooting in another part of the county). You could be looking at a response time of 45 minutes, and that is in an emergency.

I find it more likely that the local PD will get assistance from me than I will get assistance from them.

[koakaipo]

my toddler called 9-1-1 once with our landline by accident, I didn't even realize it when I took the phone from him. Within a couple minutes I had two squad cars in front of my place and a couple neighbors on top of it watching while they knocked on the door! I had to say really loud so people heard that my kid called 9-1-1, so they didn't think I had some undercover meth lab or something.....

[freakin a man]

Although I only have a BB gun at this time, and its quite old, I will eventually get a gun to add to my food storage. Why spend all the time and money preparing a food storage only to have it looted by a bunch of thugs in a crisis situation? My first responsiblity is to my family and if I have enough food and materials to get them through the whatever the crisis is then I would impart my excess to others. Odds are that then the looters come, they will be armed so at least we will have a fighting chance to survive.

Oh and when you are doing your food storage and you have pets, don't forget to store some food for them as well. They are part of the family also.

[Geaux LSU]

My husband (a yankee Catholic) will tell you he owns no guns - his wife does.

Absolutely guns should be part of the equation along with good knowledge and practice.

[DH]

Who's to say the people who want to take our food & supplies won't have guns and ammo, too? This is America, after all!

[Zakuska]

Who's to say that the people who want to take out food are people with guns who didn't keep enough oil for their lamps.

PS. Without weapons how are we going to kill all those Deer and elk to munch on?

[koakaipo]

This thread would probably seem very foreign to someone non-American.

[Cold Steel]

No one is arguing that we have to have guns to shoot our hungry neighbors who, mad with hunger, will do anything to feed their family and especially their children.

I'm talking about people who want to kill you, rape your wife and daughters and take anything they want. Maybe they'll force you to drink Drano or kick a ballpoint pen into your ear, as some bad guys did in Salt Lake years ago. Maybe they'll tie you up before stabbing you, like Charles Manson's followers did. Maybe they'll have plenty of food they took from someone else and decide they want a "date" with your 16-year old daughter or tie you up and take a torch to you just for fun.

We don't have to be talking about a doomsday scenario. It can happen after any disaster. Police officers who should be protecting you will either be off somewhere else or will be home protecting their own families. Maybe the phone service will be out and there's no electricity. When Gary Peterson, of Northwest Washington, D.C., had his door beaten down this week he had no gun. Fortunately, he had put off doing the dishes and was able to fight his attacker off with a skillet (a dirty one, no less). Well, one does what one has to when you're not allowed to have a gun, but where were the police when the guy broke down Peterson's door? This is 2007! We're not supposed to need guns!

In a national disaster, do you really want to have no weapons??

[DH]

Who's to say that the people who want to take out food are people with guns who didn't keep enough oil for their lamps.

PS. Without weapons how are we going to kill all those Deer and elk to munch on?

A lot of robbers in America are using guns as weapons. These are people who want something they don't have, and are willing to use violence to get it. Why they used their money to buy a gun and ammunition instead of whatever it is they're stealing, I don't know. Maybe because they can use the gun and ammo to steal more than they could buy with that money? In any case, I can easily picture a well-prepared LDS family sitting at home with their food, ready to protect it with their weapons, being attacked by people who also already have guns and ammo. True, maybe they would be less likely to attack someone with a gun. On the other hand, they may outnumber the prepared LDS...

Maybe we should lay mines around our houses, get air support, etc.

Daniel

This thread would probably seem very foreign to someone non-American.

Depends where the non-American is from...

[Geaux LSU]

Did anyone by chance have their televisions on during the Katrina aftermath in New Orleans. Not a pretty site.

[koakaipo]

daniel-I agree it depends on the non-American, but I think there is a sort of culture specific pov here in terms of how we relate with guns.

lsu---I did watch the aftermath-it was devastating to watch. However, a gun wouldn't be a problem solver for the main problems-the main problem was the lack of organized response by the government on various levels. When something that disastrous happens, individual preparedness can only get you so far.

I get this isn't about extremes, and Im' basically agreeing---that a gun can afford you a certain amount of security personally; but with alot of the given scenarios, the security will be somewhat minimal.

[Shuriken]

Have your sons and daughters join the Marines. Worked for me.

I can defend my family from 500 yards.

I can defend my family from 300 yards, in the head.

I can defend my family from 100 yards in the left or right eyeball.

I can defend my family (or girlfriend, heh, fun times) from 1 yard with my teeth, my fists, my knees, and my boot. A headbutt may occasionally be included.

However, my neighbor who just graduated from BYU couldn't defend his family from any of those distances with my same M16, or his athletic fitness behind his teeth, fists, knees, and dress shoes (not boots).

Guns are worthless if you do not know how to use them.

[DH]

daniel-I agree it depends on the non-American, but I think there is a sort of culture specific pov here in terms of how we relate with guns.

Indeed. My mother and her sisters are European (NL). All three are LDS and all three live in countries where guns are very common (one aunt in Canada, other aunt and mother in the U.S.), and my mother became a naturalized American citizen as quickly as she could, having wanted to come here since she was about 5 years old (!), but all three have a pronounced dislike of firearms. One of the few running political disputes between my parents involved my father's theoretical support of 2nd Amendment rights (though he never actually kept a gun) and my mother's opposition to guns (though she was not fanatical about it).

As for me, I don't really have a problem with guns per se. Maybe it's my inborn American POV, but I support the 2nd Amendment. However, some kind of gun control would seem to be only prudent. I feel disturbed that so many people seem to think that guns and violence are THE most effective answers.

And there are other countries where guns and/or violence are just as, or even more, prevalent than here in the U.S. Maybe in some of those places guns are seen primarily as a way to gain and maintain power/get what one wants/exact revenge, while here in the U.S. they are seen more as a means to preserve security and safety. While the American point of view is certainly more benign, its logic seems somewhat doubtful to me (guns are an effective way of exerting power, but are not particularly safe and don't necessarily contribute that much to security, depending on the circumstances).

You are right, our little debate would seem alien to people either in places like the UK, where gun control is strict, or in places where guns and violence are omnipresent, though for different reasons.

Daniel

[Severian]

This thread would probably seem very foreign to someone non-American.

I think most non-Americans have heard of our proclivity for guns and violence. The Japanese even have language training films to learn to say, "take my money but spare my life" in English. We after all have given the world both westerns and gangster movies. What may suprise them is our melding of Christianity and survivalist philosophy. There is no telling how far we can extend the life as nasty brutish and short metaphor in our disaster preparedness. One thing is for certain, we will immediately jettison our higher ideals to insure our own survival.

[Cold Steel]

Did anyone by chance have their televisions on during the Katrina aftermath in New Orleans. Not a pretty site.

Yes, and how dare they disarm the people! Subsequent lawsuits make sure civil authorities won't do that again. Still, the unmitigated gaul of disarming people who need to defend themselves. In the future if that happens, I hope the people will treat those authorities as enemies.

The thing about the lawful use of firearms is this: very rarely does a person need to shoot someone who threatens them. In most cases the bad guys back off. They don't want to be shot and the people defending themselves don't want to shoot them.

A number of years ago a guy with a violent history broke into the apartment of a woman. She was pretty and blonde, and he was big and strong. He advanced on her using coarse and vulgar language. But when she produced her Ruger .357 magnum, he instantly changed to a cringing, apologetic bungler. He was only trying to feed his family, he explained. That's why he broke in. He begged for her to let him go, but she refused and instead ordered him to call the police. He was subsequently charged with that attempt and several other rapes in the area. And she was featured on the cover of a national magazine behind a door, with only her head and the gun showing.

After a man tried to break down the door of my mother's house years ago, I had a firearms instructor friend of mine completely train her. I then got her a gun, confident that she knew how to use it.

[koakaipo]

I think most non-Americans have heard of our proclivity for guns and violence. The Japanese even have language training films to learn to say, "take my money but spare my life" in English. We after all have given the world both westerns and gangster movies. What may suprise them is our melding of Christianity and survivalist philosophy. There is no telling how far we can extend the life as nasty brutish and short metaphor in our disaster preparedness. One thing is for certain, we will immediately jettison our higher ideals to insure our own survival.

True, i should have clarified foreign in terms of our sensibilties and their sensibilities.

[grego]

The "Arm of Flesh" I was referring to was the same one which OT prophets condemned and Pres. Kimball referred to in his talk "The False Gods we Worship"--which is depending on our own military might rather than putting our faith and trust in God to protect us. It doesn't have anything to do with doctors, dentists, car mechanics or other trained professionals.

CFR. Where does the OT condemn it, when coupled with God? Joshua? Gideon? Anyone?

Where does Pres. Kimball say that? He's talking about our nation. Just like Pres. Hinckley did in his BoM talk, too.

Where does any prophet "distinguish" "arm of flesh": gun/etc. vs. "arm of flesh": doctor/ dentist/ etc.?

-=-=-=

neither are there statistics to show how many homicides were prevented with firearms

actually, there is, and it's quite high

-=-=-=

I'm just saying the Doomsday scenario some people imagine, where they will be surviving a post-apocolyptic scenario with their guns, with anarchy and complete societal collapse, is a total pipe dream.

You mean, in the USA, right? Because that "pipe dream" has happened recently in quite a few other countries already. And, it's happened a few times in the past in the USA--let's see, maybe 1776, 1812, 1856... And those are just a few of the biggies.

-=-=-=

And yes, there is something repulsive about the idea of people shooting their starving neighbors while sitting on a stash of food.

I find that someone would know you should have done it, but didn't, then figured taking something of someone else's food or whatever by force to put them in trouble or danger, and possibly injure or kill them in the process--much more repulsive.

-=-=-=

When I was in school, no one ever came with a gun. Mass murders were unheard of in the schools. Guns were easy to buy and sell, yet they weren't a major problem.

Absolutely.

-=-=-=

People say, get rid of guns for the children. More children die in swimming pools each year. More children die from medicines and poisons; more from car accidents, and so forth. If you live in a home with a handgun and a flight of stairs, you're more likely to suffer serious injury or death by falling down the stairs than from the handgun.

Amen. I've even said that before, myself. Don't forget hospitals and pharmaceuticals.

-=-=-=

Not long ago, I accidently tripped our ADT alarm and went for a 15-minute walk with my wife. When I returned, the police still had not come. We called ADT, which had already summoned the police and 15 minutes after that, when we called the county to cancel the alert, we were told police still had not been dispatched.

TYS!

-=-=-=

my toddler called 9-1-1 once with our landline by accident, I didn't even realize it when I took the phone from him. Within a couple minutes I had two squad cars in front of my place and a couple neighbors on top of it watching while they knocked on the door! I had to say really loud so people heard that my kid called 9-1-1, so they didn't think I had some undercover meth lab or something.....

Still, picture this--you're inside, running, a guy's inside, chasing you with a knife, twenty police are outside your house armed to the teeth; what's still the likely conclusion? They'll arrest him for murder.

Having read a few accounts from those in natural disasters, guns likely would have been nice. I've been in one myself, and the feeling can change dramatically, quickly. Police? They're way, way too busy with their own problems, their family and friends, and problems that came first. When you're the hundredth person to call 911 in 10 minutes, guess what?

-=-=-=

We after all have given the world both westerns and gangster movies.

Hold on! That's Italians and Hong Kong, too. Frankly, many places have their own little ways.