Should Mormons Include Weapons In Their Preparedness?

[Hammer]

I would rather be shot than be the one shooting.

[David Bokovoy]

Yeah, so ok, go ahead and buy guns so you'll be fine when the end of the world happens. Much good may they do you.

Clearly youâ??ve forgotten to take into consideration that when the gun owner sits upon his roof and plucks off all of his hungry neighbors trying to feed their children, he will, as a result, constantly be able to add to his own private food supply.

Alas, this thread provides a good example of why I will stand forever hard-pressed to convince my wife to ever leave the state of Massachusettsâ??itâ??s a direct result of her primeval fear of being consumed by gun touting conservatives.

[Bob Bennett]

My name is Bob and I'm an elkoholic. I started hunting elk 20 years ago. I've tried to quit, but each fall when the weather changes, an uncontrollable urge to walk in the forest with a gun takes over and I return to my old, shameful behavior. My family doesn't make it any easier. My children tell me that they prefer elk over beef. My wife actually encourages me to do it. I can't seem to find a way out of my dilemma, and now my son-in-law is showing signs of elkoholism as well. I'm afraid I may be beyond hope.

[thesometimesaint]

The Story of Stone Soup

Once upon a time, somewhere in post-war Eastern Europe, there was a great famine in which people jealously hoarded whatever food they could find, hiding it even from their friends and neighbors. One day a wandering soldier came into a village and began asking questions as if he planned to stay for the night.

"There's not a bite to eat in the whole province," he was told. "Better keep moving on."

"Oh, I have everything I need," he said. "In fact, I was thinking of making some stone soup to share with all of you." He pulled an iron cauldron from his wagon, filled it with water, and built a fire under it. Then, with great ceremony, he drew an ordinary-looking stone from a velvet bag and dropped it into the water.

By now, hearing the rumor of food, most of the villagers had come to the square or watched from their windows. As the soldier sniffed the "broth" and licked his lips in anticipation, hunger began to overcome their skepticism.

"Ahh," the soldier said to himself rather loudly, "I do like a tasty stone soup. Of course, stone soup with cabbage -- that's hard to beat."

Soon a villager approached hesitantly, holding a cabbage he'd retrieved from its hiding place, and added it to the pot. "Capital!" cried the soldier. "You know, I once had stone soup with cabbage and a bit of salt beef as well, and it was fit for a king."

The village butcher managed to find some salt beef . . . and so it went, through potatoes, onions, carrots, mushrooms, and so on, until there was indeed a delicious meal for all. The villagers offered the soldier a great deal of money for the magic stone, but he refused to sell and traveled on the next day. The moral is that by working together, with everyone contributing what they can, a greater good is achieved.

[Bob Bennett]

hammer:

I would rather be shot than be the one shooting

But would you be willing to have your children shot or abused rather than shoot?

[All-Seeing Eye]

Clearly you’ve forgotten to take into consideration that when the gun owner sits upon his roof and plucks off all of his hungry neighbors trying to feed their children, he will, as a result, constantly be able to add to his own private food supply.

Do you mean, by then eating the corpses of said deceased neighbors?

It would appear that in such an apocalyptic crisis, cannibals would have a distinct advantage. The wilderness might be emptied of deer, elk, and other edible fauna...

...but there would still be humans aplenty.

[Deborah]

Guns are nothing more than a tool, which can be used wisely and with knowledge or stupidly and ignorantly.

The highjackers on 9-11 did not need guns to bring down a plane or a building. Evil will find a way to do evil. It's naive to think that gun control will do anything to stop crime. All it does is keep law-abiding citizens from having the means to protect themselves.

The movie "Red Dawn" shows the invaders going to the gun stores first of all to confiscate all the guns and find out who was registered to take their guns. Criminals and governments fear a people who can and will defend themselves.

[thesometimesaint]

Paranoia

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Paranoia

Classification & external resources ICD-10 F20.0, F22.0, F22.8

ICD-9 295.3, 297.1, 297.2

For other senses of this word, see paranoia (disambiguation).

Paranoia is an excessive anxiety or fear concerning one's own well-being which is considered irrational and excessive, perhaps to the point of being a psychosis. This typically includes persecutory beliefs concerning a likely threat, or a belief in a conspiracy theory. In the original Greek, παράνοια (paranoia) means simply madness (para = outside; nous = mind) and it is this use which was traditionally used in psychiatry to describe any delusional state.

[Deborah]

So, Sometimes, what's your point?

[Garden Girl]

I live in the here and now...

While I have prepared myself for future "emergencies" that may befall me or my neighbors (with whom I would share)... my greater concern, as a widow living alone in an area that must rely on the sheriff vs city police, is the @#%!!@# who would break into my home with the intent of doing me bodily harm in ways that terrify me...

One of the things my dear husband taught me many years ago was how to use a firearm... I have my gun, and I know how to use it... it won't be used unless as a last resort... but I would not hesitate one bit to protect myself from an intruder... I'm an excellent shot, cool headed, and I'm serious.

As far as sharing my food stores, etc., I will gladly do so, but if there is the scenario of anarchy, I would protect myself if necessary...

The Garden Girl

[thesometimesaint]

Deborah:

My point is that some people here are working themselves into a lather, about some into the future event that may or may not happen as their wild eyed SPECULATIONS would have it.

The Prophets have REPEATEDLY warned us NOT to stockpile weapons. They have REPEATEDLY told us that Zion will never be redeemed by blood.

D&C 63:29-31.

[SolarPowered]

TSS, I didn't see anyone here advocating "stockpiling" weapons. There is a significant difference between having a gun or two around the house with which to defend oneself and one's family against various evil-doers, and creating a "stockpile" of weapons with the intent of prevailing in some sort of a "Red Dawn"-like scenario.

[Bob Bennett]

I would hope that I would follow the example of the Martin handcart company rather than the Donner party - choose death over cannibalism. There are many things worse than death. Hard to know for certain how any of us would react without being put in the situation.

With regards to gun ownership, I own a couple of hunting rifles but no handguns. I personally think of gun ownership in terms of hunting, but wouldn't be averse to using one to defend my family against an imminent threat. My feeling with regards to guns in the home is similar to that with regards to automobiles - they can be very dangerous if used improperly, but with appropriate training and safeguards, they are useful tools.

A lot of people say bad things about hunters in Utah (and everywhere else). My own experience after 20+ years in the field is that hunters - here's a big revelation - come in various shapes sizes and temperaments. There probably are a few jerks out there, but by and large they are just regular folks. Just as I would be wrong to lump all drivers or all soldiers into one homogeneous mass, I would be wrong to say that all hunters are the same. In terms of risk, I stand a much greater chance of dying in a traffic accident than in a hunting accident.

[Deborah]

The Prophets have REPEATEDLY warned us NOT to stockpile weapons. They have REPEATEDLY told us that Zion will never be redeemed by blood.

I am not advocating stockpiling weapons or even trying to redeem Zion. Just being prepared to defend one's self and family and neighbors. I really cannot picture watching a neighbor's child starving when you have food to share. I picture more of a Martin Handcart situation as well, when everyone is pooling their resources to stand against outside threats whether it be weather or roving marauders.

[Severian]

Clearly you've forgotten to take into consideration that when the gun owner sits upon his roof and plucks off all of his hungry neighbors trying to feed their children, he will, as a result, constantly be able to add to his own private food supply.

Alas, this thread provides a good example of why I will stand forever hard-pressed to convince my wife to ever leave the state of Massachusettsâ??it's a direct result of her primeval fear of being consumed by gun touting conservatives.

Alas, the scariest part of this thought is that they will have recipes to make Jell-O out of those unlucky souls who are seeking food for their families.

[thesometimesaint]

SolarPowered:

It is very simple. If you want to have one gun, a dozen or a thousand be my guest. But don't give me this lame excuse about "Protecting" your family, or even providing meat for them.

"Protecting" your family with a firearm? Against what? I've lived in the same house in the same neighborhood, with the same neighbors for the last 17 years. I've watched their kids, and now some of their Grandkids grow up here. I could no more sit back and watch them starve to death, than I could sit back and watch my own die. Are you going to shoot your neighbors over a handful of wheat?

A rabbit or two is caught in a simple Snare Line trap much more efficiently, and with less energy expended than any large game animal.

A Deer or Elk requires considerable skill, time, and effort just to hunt down. Then you STILL have hundreds of pounds of rotting meat to deal with. What you going to do. Freeze it? No electricity. Can it? Do you have all the necessary tools, plus the necessary knowhow to can large quantities of meat? Drying? Do you know how, and have the tools to do it?

[SolarPowered]

"Protecting" your family with a firearm? Against what?

Have you been in a coma for the last 40 years? Do you remember Katrina, the Rodney King riots, the riots in Watts and Detroit, the many, many people who have defended themselves against rape and worse with firearms?

I've lived in the same house in the same neighborhood, with the same neighbors for the last 17 years. I've watched their kids, and now some of their Grandkids grow up here. I could no more sit back and watch them starve to death, than I could sit back and watch my own die. Are you going to shoot your neighbors over a handful of wheat?

Who here is advocating shooting their friends and neighbors over wheat? I'm certainly not. The original topic is, "Should Mormons Include Weapons In Their Preparedness?" That's quite different from, "Should we shoot our neighbors to protect our food supply?" Having weapons means that you are prepared to defend yourselves against those who would do evil to you. It's quite a leap to get from there to a presumption that we're talking about shooting innocent people. Where on earth did you get that idea???

A rabbit or two is caught in a simple Snare Line trap much more efficiently, and with less energy expended than any large game animal.

A Deer or Elk requires considerable skill, time, and effort just to hunt down. Then you STILL have hundreds of pounds of rotting meat to deal with. What you going to do. Freeze it? No electricity. Can it? Do you have all the necessary tools, plus the necessary knowhow to can large quantities of meat? Drying? Do you know how, and have the tools to do it?

Suit yourself. I have food storage. I'm not a hunter. If the need arises, I plan to use the food storage, not hunt elk. (Though, if somebody wants to hunt elk, I have no problem with that. Though, they're going to go real hungry around these parts if they're hoping to find any elk to hunt.)

[alter idem]

CFR. Where does the OT condemn it, when coupled with God? Joshua? Gideon? Anyone?

Where does Pres. Kimball say that? He's talking about our nation. Just like Pres. Hinckley did in his BoM talk, too.

Where does any prophet "distinguish" "arm of flesh": gun/etc. vs. "arm of flesh": doctor/ dentist/ etc.?

I'm sorry, I can see no comparison with trusting in our military might rather than God and trusting in the professional expertise of a doctor or a mechanic. I just don't see your point.

If you want references, Go to the LDS published Old Testament, look up "Trust not in the Arm of Flesh" in the Topical Guide (pg. 540 in my version) and read the scriptures cited.

If you read Pres. Kimball's talk "The False Gods We worship" you'll see his comments on trusting in military might--As I read it, it goes nicely with the references in the OT.

This thread is depressing, I'd rather bow out of the discussion.

[Oracle]

I own several guns. I am firearms trained, as are my children. You have to keep the bases covered if you want to survive in the event of a catastrophe. Be prepared is a good motto. We don't know if we would ever be in a position to have to defend ourselves or our family with firearms. But I would hate to not be prepared in the event such an unfortunate scenario should occur.

I also know how to hunt. Also a survival skill.

[David Bokovoy]

Alas, the scariest part of this thought is that they will have recipes to make Jell-O out of those unlucky souls who are seeking food for their families.

I'm sorry. My post was no doubt in poor taste.

Truth is "I'm a real John Bircher now!"

[SolarPowered]

I'd like to address a minor undercurrent that has been running through some of the posts on this thread, and in general is exists in some sectors in connection with preparedness discussions.

We clearly have not been advised to prepare for a paramilitary adventure so that "the Elders of Israel" can "save the Constitution when it is 'hanging by a thread'."

Beyond that, if you think about it, if the Constitution is to be saved, it isn't going to be by military means. The only effective to "save the Constitution" is by teaching people the meaning of Constitution, of limited government, and of "liberty," so that they might elect people who will honor these things.

[freakin a man]

Deborah:

My point is that some people here are working themselves into a lather, about some into the future event that may or may not happen as their wild eyed SPECULATIONS would have it.

We don't know what will happen in the future but that we are told that food storage will be as important to us as the Ark was to Noah in his day. Nobody knows when we will need it and what the situation will be but be prepared for whatever comes and when it comes. Its seems to me that if one is going to spend the time and money investing in food storage to the protection of ones family, spending a little money on securing those items from theft like buying a gun or two is appropriate. The food storage is to feed my family and not some thug down the street who wants to steal it because he is hungry.

As the saying goes: "Better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it."

[Shuriken]

I'm sorry, I can see no comparison with trusting in our military might rather than God and trusting in the professional expertise of a doctor or a mechanic. I just don't see your point.

What I don't understand is how our military is not professional.

Sorry, but you are protected by professional soldiers. We go to school, we get certified, we have compulsory sexual harrasment training. In fact, a lot of us are your dentists.

If you're going to not do your part and simply trust God to do every bit of the work of protecting your family from molestation, you may as well trust God to clean your teeth and inspect your colon.

And we all know how well that works.

[grego]

Shuriken,

Thanks for at least understanding. That's what I was getting at. Questions like, How much should we depend on God, and how much on ourselves? Is there a difference or degrees between arms of flesh? How so?

We clearly have not been advised to prepare for a paramilitary adventure so that "the Elders of Israel" can "save the Constitution when it is 'hanging by a thread'."

I think someone misunderstood a little. History is pretty clear--when citizens have weapons--even when they pale compared to the govt.'s--the govt. is hesitant to make them compliant to dictators. So, by everyone buying a gun, it seems the odds that the govt. will do something like that, decrease.

[Cold Steel]

Deborah:

My point is that some people here are working themselves into a lather, about some into the future event that may or may not happen as their wild eyed SPECULATIONS would have it.

The Prophets have REPEATEDLY warned us NOT to stockpile weapons.

I don't think anyone is arguing that we should be stockpiling. What constitutes stockpiling, anyway? We're told to stockpile food, right? But that's putting up shelves and getting barrels to fill with water. In what type of condition would call for emergency supplies of food and water, but zero weapons? If an armed violent criminal and his buddies break into your home (like Charles Manson's minions broke into the home of Sharon Tate), what do you suggest is the best course of action? Using the priesthood? How did not having weapons help the saints at Haun's Mill?

Now I am open to suggestions. Does anyone believe that Brigham Young would have advised the early saints to go into the hills or valleys where Indians or wild animals were without a weapon? If a city were struck by a biological weapon or severe earthquake and there was no police, would it be unwise to have a firearm? (Again, we're not talking about stockpiling fully automatic rifles and grenade launchers.)

When Jesus talked about the destruction of Jerusalem that was coming and advised those who did not have a sword to sell their cloaks and buy one, he was talking about being prepared.

It's strange, but Latter-day Saints know that calamities lie ahead. They know that the sea will engulf cities and that there will be earthquakes in diverse places. Police in Louisiana threw their shields away and went home to protect their families with their guns. What makes the saints believe it will be any different in future?

Elder Monson said: "Paramount is the responsibility to coordinate personal and family preparedness efforts, including food storage." Note he said "including."

Look at it this way. Salt Lake City has a good police force. Even so, walk into the Church Office Building and you'll see armed security. Why? Do the Brethren not trust the police to protect them? Why is there a need for security guards, then? And during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, why did the few police patrol the area with fully automatic rifles?

This is basic, simple preparedness. Self defense is a God-given right. During World War II, the British took out full-page ads in American newspapers asking U.S. citizens to donate their firearms to British citizens. True it was a time of war, but what do you think we're going to face if there is a break down in society?

Wild-eyed speculation, is it? Well, why have food? Water?

No man should stand by and watch his family harmed or his wife raped because, living in his nice home in the suburbs, it wasn't necessary. How radically things can change in even a week. If you don't know that, then you know nothing of history. The Romans, in their civil wars, found out the hard way.

Now if the prophets ever say to give up our weapons, mine will be the first to go. Until then, having a weapon will do you no harm if it's secured and used intelligently.