Should Mormons Include Weapons In Their Preparedness?

[Zakuska]

I would hope that I would follow the example of the Martin handcart company rather than the Donner party - choose death over cannibalism. There are many things worse than death. Hard to know for certain how any of us would react without being put in the situation.

Well thats because the Donner party where a bunch of converted Catholics and the Martin Party where Protestant converts. :P:P:P:P:P and (it was a Joke.)

[thesometimesaint]

January 31st, 2007 at 12:42 pm

Sen. Eliot Shapleigh, D-El Paso, this morning released the 2007 version of his profoundly depressing booklet â??Texas on the Brink: How Texas ranks among the 50 states.â? Itâ??s a handy quick-reference to exactly how bad things are in Texas. Shapleighâ??s office has compiled the rankings, complete with footnotes and all, for three straight sessions. Perusing the numbers, you realize Texas is actually worse off than you thought. A few of the highlights (and weâ??re using that term loosely):

49th in per capita tax revenue raised;

50th in per capita state spending;

47th in average SAT scores;

50th in percentage of population over 25 with high school diploma;

1st in percentage of uninsured children;

1st in percentage of population without health insurance;

49th in percentage of women who vote;

1st in air pollution emissions;

1st in toxic chemicals released into water;

1st in cancer-causing carcinogens released into air;

44th in home ownership rate;

50th in electric bill affordability;

1st in number of executions;

1st in number of gun shows.

There â?? now didnâ??t that brighten your day? Shapleighâ??s point wasnâ??t to depress the Hell out of us, but to say that the state has pressing needs more urgent than another property tax cut. Sen. Rodney Ellis (D-Houston) and Sen. Kirk Watson (D-Austin) joined Shapleigh to stress that increased support for the Texas Grant Program, which provides tuition for college, and the Childrenâ??s Health Insurance Program could help alleviate some of these rankings.

At the end of the press conference, a reporter asked Shapleigh if anything had gotten better in Texas?

He paused. â??Tax cuts.,â? he said.

[Severian]

I wonder if the Fancher party had an adequate stockpile of weaponry and ammunition for their personal disaster preparedness whether their fate would have been different?

[BlueDreams]

January 31st, 2007 at 12:42 pm

Sen. Eliot Shapleigh, D-El Paso, this morning released the 2007 version of his profoundly depressing booklet “Texas on the Brink: How Texas ranks among the 50 states.” It’s a handy quick-reference to exactly how bad things are in Texas. Shapleigh’s office has compiled the rankings, complete with footnotes and all, for three straight sessions. Perusing the numbers, you realize Texas is actually worse off than you thought. A few of the highlights (and we’re using that term loosely):

49th in per capita tax revenue raised;

50th in per capita state spending;

47th in average SAT scores;

50th in percentage of population over 25 with high school diploma;

1st in percentage of uninsured children;

1st in percentage of population without health insurance;

49th in percentage of women who vote;

1st in air pollution emissions;

1st in toxic chemicals released into water;

1st in cancer-causing carcinogens released into air;

44th in home ownership rate;

50th in electric bill affordability;

1st in number of executions;

1st in number of gun shows.

There — now didn’t that brighten your day? Shapleigh’s point wasn’t to depress the Hell out of us, but to say that the state has pressing needs more urgent than another property tax cut. Sen. Rodney Ellis (D-Houston) and Sen. Kirk Watson (D-Austin) joined Shapleigh to stress that increased support for the Texas Grant Program, which provides tuition for college, and the Children’s Health Insurance Program could help alleviate some of these rankings.

At the end of the press conference, a reporter asked Shapleigh if anything had gotten better in Texas?

He paused. “Tax cuts.,” he said.

Sounds like the grand ole state indeed.

As for the main topic, my fam lives in TX and the last statistic should say something. Prior to TX my family didn't own a gun, now we own two or three. And two of us know how to use them (though I can't shoot worth beans) and one is antsy to learn (he's ten and shoots a bb when he goes down to Gran's in Junction, TX). If all anarchy breaks loose in Texas, it could quickly become the most frightening state imaginable...or the safest in certain areas on the burbs where people could easily group up and grow crops (there's still plenty of open land for crops and the corn used for pigs grows without human help...worse comes to worse we'd eat that, raid the mart to get those little packets of seed and throw 'em about and hope for the best. Most the LDS here know how to plant, as do a number of Texans in suburbia who spends their saturdays and sunday beautifying the lawns. We have tools and could loot local stores for more. THe largest problems would be some of their insatiable appetites for meat, malnutrition (like that isn't a problem already), and starvation in the cities, and places with poorer land excessibility. My biggest worry would be for LDS, actually, who many texans would know have food. We'd probably have to take an exudus out into the still expansive fields of Texas before they got too antsy for our canned goods and set up camp near one of the man-made lakes, possibly Texoma. The land is good, the season long, the canning skills of the elder sisters still in check, and we could probably make due, though the first year would be tough and have multiple deaths. But this is inferring climate change hasn't been too expansive and the droughts were minimal. It would only be a temporary solution. Sooner than later we'd have to move out.

No, I've never really thought this through before...just some musings.

With luv,

BD

[Cold Steel]

Okay, forget shooting your starving neighbors.

The only thing I'd like to know from those of you who feel no need to have a weapon, but who have provisions of food, water, and medical supples: In what scenario do you see yourself having to use those supplies?

If the Book of Mormon is out template of what to expect in the future, do you imagine that you'll be munching your wheat goodies and drinking your bottled water because they won't be available at the local grocery, but that if you need protection that you'll simply pick up the phone and call 911?

Firearms expert and SWAT instructor Massad Ayoob notes: "While training in Miami, I saw film footage of what was done to some of the motorists who were literally mangled to death by crowds of rioters in 1980 solely because they were the wrong color, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. If I sensed a riot in the wind where I was going, I would make every effort to pack my 16-shot 9mm, SIG P-226, or Beretta 92, with multiple magazines, including 20-round extended sticks." He also said: "A nation has learned that its police cannot always be there to help them. A nation has come to realize that they were lied to by those who told them, 'Only police and soldiers need guns, and you need police and soldiers instead of guns.' In Los Angeles, that nation saw the police and the soldiers arrive altogether too late, in a scenario that left more than 50 dead and more than 2,000 injured, many severely."

I think what we've seen so far is nothing. It's there merest shadow of things to come. If you can't learn from history, you'll have to learn from the school of hard knocks.

Note this description of the Hurricane Andrew aftermath in 1992:

Although the State of Florida vainly tried to manage the situation, the scope of disaster was clearly beyond local or state resources. Thousands had no shelter, food, water, or fuel. Hospitals were overloaded, medical attention was spotty, many roads were blocked or impassable. Looting had broken out in some of the hardest hit areas, forcing residents and shop owners to carry firearms. As the days passed, residents struggled in the 90 degree heat to meet basic survival needs. Thousands were running short of food and water, while others were being injured daily living in the debris.

Fortunately, the infrastructure was able to recover, but what would happen in a situation where it couldn't?

The decision to have a firearm is a personal and individual one. Read the scriptures and carefully consider before dismissing it out of hand.

[Zakuska]

Rev. 13: 10

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Patience Cold Steel.

[SolarPowered]

Rev. 13: 10

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Patience Cold Steel.

OK, swords are out. Go for the Colt .45 ACP and the Remington Marine Magnum.

[koakaipo]

It's a toss up I think.

In some cases, a firearm would be helpful. In other cases, it wouldn't. In some scenarios, it could be a hazard.

There's so many scenarios to imagine, and many of them to me assert that a fire arm would allow some personal security, but limited security. If we are talking about worst case scenarios of rioting gone wild and catastrophic disasters that leave large numbers of people desperate, then we are talking about needed something on a wider scale to help with protection.

[Cold Steel]

Yep. All I'm saying, folks, is to use history as a guide. Study what happens in the aftermaths of earthquakes, floods, hurricanes and civil war in other nations. Then make an educated decision. Those who don't know about criminal mentality would do well to study it and question what they would do in situations where there is a societal meltdown.

Samuel the Lamanite declared:

â??And now remember, remember, my brethren, that whosoever perisheth, perisheth unto himself; and whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free; ye are permitted to act for yourselves; for behold, God hath given unto you a knowledge and he hath made you free.

â??He hath given unto you that ye might know good from evil, and he hath given unto you that ye might choose life or death; and ye can do good and be restored unto that which is good, or have that which is good restored unto you; or ye can do evil, and have that which is evil restored unto youâ? (Hel. 14:30â??31).

We are free and we know good from evil. And that's why it's prudent to discuss these issues.

If you're going to invest in a means of self

protection, it's probably a good idea to buy what

you need before you need it.

[Hyrum Page]

If Moroni were alive today, he would advocate being prepared with guns and ammo to protect our loved ones.

If Nephi met Laban today, he would have, in accordance with God's will, blown his head off instead of slicing it off.

I think it is fair to say that the saints should pack heat in a latter-day apocalyptic crisis.

[Severian]

If Nephi met Laban today, he would have, in accordance with God's will, blown his head off instead of slicing it off.

What about a chainsaw?

[Hyrum Page]

What about a chainsaw?

That seems illogical to me. After all, a chainsaw is only a weapon for psychos. Nephi was a prophet of God, not a psycho.

[DonBradley]

If Moroni were alive today, he would advocate being prepared with guns and ammo to protect our loved ones.

I disagree.

We don't need to buy guns to protect ourselves when the Lord has providentially seen to it that the people of Ammon buried thousands of swords that remain bright--and, more importantly, sharp--to this day, in anticipation of the time when the saints will need them to defend themselves.

"But," I hear you skeptically thinking (yes, I am picking up mind-reading skills from my detractors on the GFP thread), "those were buried somewhere in Mesoamerica."

True enough, I suppose--but being buried in Mesoamerica didn't stop the plates from being there in New York when Joseph Smith needed them. Why should it be any different with swords? Indeed, swords are one of the very items that became "slippery," and moved into the earth under the own volition during Nephite and Jaredite times. Why should they have stopped slipping now?

The best way to be prepared is to wear an empty scabbard at all times, to show your faith that a sword will slip up from under your feet just when you need it.

Don

[Hyrum Page]

Don,

Clearly you have forgotten that the Lord is a God of efficiency. In our day he has seen to it that we invented electric cars and solar powered water heaters. I really don't think he invented the gun so we could go digging swords out of the earth. It's called Occam's Razor. Or maybe it should be Occam's Sharpshooter.

HP

[DonBradley]

Clearly you have forgotten that the Lord is a God of efficiency. In our day he has seen to it that we invented electric cars and solar powered water heaters. I really don't think he invented the gun so we could go digging swords out of the earth. It's called Occam's Razor. Or maybe it should be Occam's Sharpshooter.

HP,

I did indeed forget that it was revealed that the Lord God is a God of efficiency in the Revelation on Correlation. But are guns really the most efficient way to bring judgment upon the ungodly? Wouldn't Occam's Neutron Bomb require that the Lord provide "dirty weapons" or "slippery" bunker buster missiles that could slide from their underground silos through the earth, straight to gay bars, secular universities, and Democratic state conventions?

DB

[Hyrum Page]

HP,

I did indeed forget that it was revealed that the Lord God is a God of efficiency in the Revelation on Correlation. But are guns really the most efficient way to bring judgment upon the ungodly? Wouldn't Occam's Neutron Bomb require that the Lord provide "dirty weapons" or "slippery" bunker buster missiles that could slide from their underground silos through the earth, straight to gay bars, secular universities, and Democratic state conventions?

DB

Touche, mon frere, but you forget that we are conversing about personal preparedness. I think only the prophet will be guided to use nuclear weapons because only he is sufficiently trusted by the Lord to use such awesome power!

HP

[DonBradley]

Touche, mon frere, but you forget that we are conversing about personal preparedness. I think only the prophet will be guided to use nuclear weapons because only he is sufficiently trusted by the Lord to use such awesome power!

You are right, Brother Page. It's difficult for me to get any of this right without the Spirit, or a stone like the one you have. (I had one once as well, but it passed.)

Your comments above are validated by the following episode from the life of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

When visited by Josiah Quincy, of the prominent Boston family network of John Quincy Adams, Joseph told Quincy of his positions as mayor, lieutant-general, chancellor, justice of the peace, etc., etc.; and at length Quincy observed, "You have too much power to be safely trusted to one man."

Joseph replied that in anyone else's hands "so much power would, no doubt, be dangerous. I am the only man in the world whom it would be safe to trust it with. Remember, I am a prophet"

Quincy recalled that, "The last five words were spoken in a rich, comical aside, as if in hearty recognition of the ridiculous sound they might have in the ears of a Gentile."

(See, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, p. 7.)

Amen.

[Hyrum Page]

Yeah, Joseph probably felt sorry for old Josiah. JQ had no idea that he was talking to a prophet of God, and I am sure Joseph felt uncomfortable dealing with him and his skepticism. You are right to say that only a prophet should wield such awesome power. It's a good thing that our president is about as close to a prophet as you can get for a man in the White House, unless he be President Hinckley himself. Or is that too political to say?

[thesometimesaint]

A few years back, a couple of gang members came to my town looking for trouble. They found it. While no firearms were used by the residents. The gang members were sure happy after a few days in the hospital to have our sheriff safely escort them out of town.

[Hyrum Page]

A few years back, a couple of gang members came to my town looking for trouble. They found it. While no firearms were used by the residents. The gang members were sure happy after a few days in the hospital to have our sheriff safely escort them out of town.

Yeah! That's what I'm talking about. People need to protect themselves from evil men. It's just like that cool show "The Equalizer," where the guy sticks it to bullies who prey on the innocent. Man, I wish that guy were real.

[DonBradley]

Yeah, Joseph probably felt sorry for old Josiah. JQ had no idea that he was talking to a prophet of God, and I am sure Joseph felt uncomfortable dealing with him and his skepticism. You are right to say that only a prophet should wield such awesome power. It's a good thing that our president is about as close to a prophet as you can get for a man in the White House, unless he be President Hinckley himself. Or is that too political to say?

Well, if the presidential race had been between Joseph Smith and George W. Bush, I (quite seriously now), would have voted for Joseph Smith. He had an intelligent, creative, and probably workable solution to the slave crisis and advocated serious prison reform and federal enforcement of constitutional rights within the states well before these issues came to national attention. I believe he had the foresight to be a great statesman. For George W. Bush, I cannot say anything near the same.

Don

[Hyrum Page]

Well, if the presidential race had been between Joseph Smith and George W. Bush, I (quite seriously now), would have voted for Joseph Smith. He had an intelligent, creative, and probably workable solution to the slave crisis and advocated serious prison reform and federal enforcement of constitutional rights within the states well before these issues came to national attention. I believe he had the foresight to be a great statesman. For George W. Bush, I cannot say anything near the same.

Don

Yeah, I would vote for Joseph over W, but then he was a prophet.

[thesometimesaint]

Hyrum Page:

Please don't misunderstand.

For over a decade I carried a S&W .44 Mag with the 8 inch barrel; Ammo was 260 Grain JHP. I still can put all of the rounds in the "X" at 30 yards. A sidearm is perfectly safe in my hands. I am not an Anti-gun nut. I am however a VERY ANTI-NUT behind the trigger type person.

[Hyrum Page]

Hyrum Page:

Please don't misunderstand. I am not an Anti-gun nut. I am however a VERY ANTI-NUT behind the trigger type person.

Man, I hear ya.

[Cold Steel]

True enough, I suppose--but being buried in Mesoamerica didn't stop the plates from being there in New York when Joseph Smith needed them. Why should it be any different with swords? Indeed, swords are one of the very items that became "slippery," and moved into the earth under the own volition during Nephite and Jaredite times. Why should they have stopped slipping now?

Wow, Don. You are really in one of your moods today. Did you miss your nap?