Exit Or Not

[why me]

God can be disproven by the mind of some. Just because you feel the church has been disproven, when the Spirit and God stand behind it, doesn't mean anything to those who have received confirmation.

I never said that the church was disproven. However, I wanted to imply that since the church has not been disproven, the person who exits, exits based on a feeling and not a fact. Disbelief in this instance is not substantiated but rather the disbelief comes from a source of that is located in the mind.

That being said, life is a constant journey and we change with the currents of life. For some, the mormon experience no longer is a part of the existed mormon life story. Hence, they leave. Change is natural. It is only when a person begins to grip about such a change in such a way that is hurtful to others, that I believe the exited mormon is doing an injustice to something that occurs quite naturally.

That being said, the lds church has not been proven false, nor has the book of mormon. A speculation does not create truth.

[Noggin]

That being said, the lds church has not been proven false, nor has the book of mormon. A speculation does not create truth.

So? Neither has Catholicism been proven false. Nor has Islam. Nor Jehovah's Witnesses, Nor Eckankar. Even Scientologists believe that Scientology has not been proven false. Evangelical Christians "know" that Mormonism is false. It's all subjective to the perspective.

See my previous post above for the explanation. I frequently get ignored when I make posts like this. The logic is too solid. How would a proper refutation go?

Uh. No Noggin, you are wrong because I, well, I just know you are. I also know Mormonism is true.

please.

Noggin

[Noggin]

...I wanted to imply that since the church has not been disproven, the person who exits, exits based on a feeling and not a fact.

Why can't the person leave upon observing the net weight against Joseph Smith's issue of Trustworthiness? How can an observation be a feeling? People observe what they will, take in evidence, weigh it, use their mind to quantify appropriate action and then leave or stay with Mormonism.

Hmm. I wonder why people leave Catholicism, Jehovah's Witnesses and Islam? On feelings? No facts there that call those faiths into question? How can Mormonism be any different? Can you see the inconsistency of logic you are in?

In your mind, Why Me, all of these other faiths are disproven to you from facts you observe about them. You should grant that people not of your faith can and do observe facts that equally destroy Mormonism.

Noggin

[Deborah]

Why can't the person leave upon observing the net weight against Joseph Smith's issue of Trustworthiness? How can an observation be a feeling? People observe what they will, take in evidence, weigh it, use their mind to quantify appropriate action and then leave or stay with Mormonism.

No wonder you were able to fall prey to the negative against Joseph Smith if you just thought the testimony of the spirit is a mere feeling. Those of us here and certainly more widespread have examined the claims against Joseph but we accept in place of the lies and hearsay and smears, the evidence which shows a man of honor and faith who chose to obey the Lord above all. The testimony of the Holy Ghost is a more sure thing than merely feeling and it is that which has held me in the church even through all the times of doubt.

[Noggin]

Why can't the person leave upon observing the net weight against Joseph Smith's issue of Trustworthiness? How can an observation be a feeling? People observe what they will, take in evidence, weigh it, use their mind to quantify appropriate action and then leave or stay with Mormonism.

No wonder you were able to fall prey to the negative against Joseph Smith if you just thought the testimony of the spirit is a mere feeling. Those of us here and certainly more widespread have examined the claims against Joseph but we accept in place of the lies and hearsay and smears, the evidence which shows a man of honor and faith who chose to obey the Lord above all. The testimony of the Holy Ghost is a more sure thing than merely feeling and it is that which has held me in the church even through all the times of doubt.

Hi Deborah

Do you accept or reject the evidence that shows L Ron Hubbard as an honorable and faithful man? What about Paul Twitchell of Eckankar? The Pope? The righteous collective body of The Watch Tower Society? What do you say to ex-Jehovah's Witnesses, ex-Mulsims and ex-Catholics? Did they also fall prey to the smear campaign against these faith?

And take a gander at the defense website for Islam or Catholicism or whoever. The faithful on those boards sound exactly like you all do. Shocked and dismayed that anyone could ever leave their religion behind because it is so obviously true.

http://www.islamworld.net/

If anyone has a real desire to be a Muslim and has full conviction and strong belief that Islam is the true religion ordained by Allah for all human-beings, then, one should pronounce the "Shahada", the testimony of faith, without further delay.

This Catholic site has the same feel as FAIR

http://forum.catholic.org/

Jehovah's Witnesses

http://www.jehovah.to/exe/general/index.htm

"Jehovah's Witnesses United" is simply the name of this site. All those directly associated with this site are active Jehovah's Witnesses in good standing with their local congregations. The site was created so that scholarly information supporting the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society's teachings and the New World Translation could be collected in one location on the web. This site is not meant as a substitute for Society literature, but as a further resource for those who would like to "dig deeper."

Finally, why do Catholics stay Catholic? JW's stay JW? Eckankarists remain faithful Eckankarists? etc? I will tell you:

The testimony of the Holy Ghost is a more sure thing than merely feeling and it is that which has held me in the church even through all the times of doubt Except, in Eck, the "feeling" is ratified, they claim, by actual astral projective trips outside their body where they claim to go meet spirit gurus on the astral planes of existence. But Catholics and evangelicals say the same thing you are saying for support. When I studied with the Scientologists, they too claimed huge life successes and powerfully deep and abiding feelings and witnesses that "proved" their religion was true.

It's all bogus. Mormonism is nothing more or less than these. I know you won't see that, or enjoy my commentary, just like when I go to the websites I just provided and say these types of things to the other religions. They get worked up, incensed, battle stations too. They can prove/justify every point of their doctrine but in the end, it's just a hunch or a feeling that ratifies their position.

Noggin

[urroner]

They get worked up, incensed, battle stations too. They can prove/justify every point of their doctrine but in the end, it's just a hunch or a feeling that ratifies their position.

Noggin

And people like you never, ever do anything like the above.

[Deborah]

They get worked up, incensed, battle stations too. They can prove/justify every point of their doctrine but in the end, it's just a hunch or a feeling that ratifies their position.

Noggin

And people like you never, ever do anything like the above.

I was going to say it seems like it's the apostates or ex's or whatever they want to call themselves who get all worked up and rabid in their defense of their unbelief.

[cacheman]

Nowhere does Givens attach good or bad to belief or disbelief. He just says that there is evidence to go either way. And since the scale does not of itself force a choice, the individual must just leap to one side of the fence or the other.

I disagree with the overall premise that Dr. Givens puts forth. His proposal leads to an "either/or" end result, when in reality everyone has varying degrees of credible conviction and dismissive denial in many aspects of their life. We are all part believer, and part disbeliever. What we believe in just might be different. I completely agree with the idea that our beliefs and disbeliefs are a reflection of what's most important to us, that's just common sense. If our beliefs don't reflect who we want to be, then something is wrong.

In his paper, Dr. Givens frames this dichotomy in the context of belief or disbelief in Christ and the role of Joseph Smith in restoring Christ's gospel. In this context, he attaches merit and moral significance in the decision to believe. That's his perspective, and he has a right to believe that, but I feel that it is more complex than the "either/or" scenario that he presents.

Just some of my thoughts for what they're worth.....

cacheman

[juliann]

It's all bogus. Mormonism is nothing more or less than these. I know you won't see that, or enjoy my commentary, just like when I go to the websites I just provided and say these types of things to the other religions. They get worked up, incensed, battle stations too.

Do you ever read what you write?

[juliann]

I completely agree with the idea that our beliefs and disbeliefs are a reflection of what's most important to us, that's just common sense. If our beliefs don't reflect who we want to be, then something is wrong.

So you really do agree with him. You have just left out the element of faith that is required to hold on to a belief, the thing that makes us choose to believe one thing over another when most of what we think we know are things that have been told to us. You just can't get beyond "Mormon". The automatic assumptions go up and it has to be wrong the minute we try to say something about ourselves. Can you really not see that?

[cacheman]

Can you really not see that?

Yeah, I can't.

cacheman

[gramps]

Deborah said:

I was going to say it seems like it's the apostates or ex's or whatever they want to call themselves who get all worked up and rabid in their defense of their unbelief.

Well, we all know that there are posters here on your side of the fence, as well, Deborah, who also get all worked up and even rabid in their defense of their belief. It's not just us "bad guys."

[Troubled]

Let me add the persepective of one is currently wholly immersed in the LDS church but whose faith is almost gone. I maintain hope, but very little conviction is left. All of my children, siblings, nieces, nephews and parents are active, faithful members. I have served in a lot of church callings including a High Council, EQ President, YM presidency and three Bishoprics including Bishop. I continue to spend 15-20 hours a week in church service. But in my heart, I do not believe. I do not actively disbelieve, and I am not angry or bitter, but I lack belief. What has changed? It is hard to answer that question because it is hard to be objective about oneself and to analyze one's own thought processes.

For me, I think it is a combination of two sets of issues. The first are the intellectual challenges. No need to rehearse them in detail. I am finding it difficult to accept at face value the foundational narrative of the Church and the historicity of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. But far more important than all of that is that God does not speak to me. Moroni's promise does not work, at least it has not worked for me. I just don't get answers to prayers. Last year I accepted President Hinckley's challenge to reread the Book of Mormon. I prayed many times about it. I pleaded for faith and a testimony. It never came. In fact, I had several experiences when I prayed and then while studying I had strong negative impressions about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. I don't attribute those to the Spirit, but who knows. All I know is that I seen no sign that God answers my prayers. And I don't mean for the last few months. I mean ever.

I don't really know how to explain why I see things so differently from the way I used to. But I do, and I am finding it very difficult to go back. The Church just does not make sense to me. It clashes with the reality that I perceive every day. From the Adam and Eve story to the LDS worldview today, I just can't make sense of it.

[Tchild2]

Troubled wrote:

I don't really know how to explain why I see things so differently from the way I used to. But I do, and I am finding it very difficult to go back. The Church just does not make sense to me. It clashes with the reality that I perceive every day. From the Adam and Eve story to the LDS worldview today, I just can't make sense of it.

Great heartfelt post. I know how you feel...completely.

I think it is this sentiment where I see the similarities of those exiting (or troubled by) Mormonism emotionally and/or physically. It is the complete breakdown of the Mormon worldview to provide meaningful and satisfying answers to life's questions. Often, it's doctrines and " foundational narratives" even seems contradictory to one's own experiential reality and cumulative lifelong experiences.

[why me]

Let me add the persepective of one is currently wholly immersed in the LDS church but whose faith is almost gone. I maintain hope, but very little conviction is left. All of my children, siblings, nieces, nephews and parents are active, faithful members. I have served in a lot of church callings including a High Council, EQ President, YM presidency and three Bishoprics including Bishop. I continue to spend 15-20 hours a week in church service. But in my heart, I do not believe. I do not actively disbelieve, and I am not angry or bitter, but I lack belief. What has changed? It is hard to answer that question because it is hard to be objective about oneself and to analyze one's own thought processes.

For me, I think it is a combination of two sets of issues. The first are the intellectual challenges. No need to rehearse them in detail. I am finding it difficult to accept at face value the foundational narrative of the Church and the historicity of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. But far more important than all of that is that God does not speak to me. Moroni's promise does not work, at least it has not worked for me. I just don't get answers to prayers. Last year I accepted President Hinckley's challenge to reread the Book of Mormon. I prayed many times about it. I pleaded for faith and a testimony. It never came. In fact, I had several experiences when I prayed and then while studying I had strong negative impressions about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. I don't attribute those to the Spirit, but who knows. All I know is that I seen no sign that God answers my prayers. And I don't mean for the last few months. I mean ever.

I don't really know how to explain why I see things so differently from the way I used to. But I do, and I am finding it very difficult to go back. The Church just does not make sense to me. It clashes with the reality that I perceive every day. From the Adam and Eve story to the LDS worldview today, I just can't make sense of it.

Maybe you are trying to hard. You are seeking after a sign and such a sign may not come. Perhaps you should stop trying so hard to get a witness and just begin to enjoy life that is in your surroundings. Notice the little things found in your family and extended family. Those who seek signs usually have difficulty getting such a sign. But in simple little joys, in simple little good acts of service and in simple asks of mercy, one can feel god and his glory and maybe just maybe the sign will be given by means that you are not prepared for and yet, you will receive it.

[Troubled]

Maybe you are trying to hard. You are seeking after a sign and such a sign may not come. Perhaps you should stop trying so hard to get a witness and just begin to enjoy life that is in your surroundings. Notice the little things found in your family and extended family. Those who seek signs usually have difficulty getting such a sign. But in simple little joys, in simple little good acts of service and in simple asks of mercy, one can feel god and his glory and maybe just maybe the sign will be given by means that you are not prepared for and yet, you will receive it.

The only sign I am seeking is the one promised by Moroni, the one every missionary tells every investigator to seek, and the one that I have been taught for more than four decades that I should expect. I am trying to take the Church on its own terms, and to examine it in precisely the way our leaders and our scriptures tell us we should. I am surprised that you would suggest that is a mistake.

[Noggin]

The only sign I am seeking is the one promised by Moroni, the one every missionary tells every investigator to seek, and the one that I have been taught for more than four decades that I should expect. I am trying to take the Church on its own terms, and to examine it in precisely the way our leaders and our scriptures tell us we should. I am surprised that you would suggest that is a mistake.

Good reply, Troubled.

I cannot believe that it was half way suggested that you are seeking after a sign. good grief.

There has to be a better response that "Just relax, quit trying so hard". Next, you might hear that God is just testing you. That is a cruel god, imo. He commands his creation to ask him if the book of Mormon is true, the creation's very salvation hinges on a bonefide answer, and then the god takes his sweet time. This, unfortunately, is a very perplexing problem. I can't tell you how many hundreds of investigators on my mission asked god but got zero answer. What was the explanation back then? Oh yes, they weren't ready, they had hard hearts, or perhaps they are sinning. Ehhh. You aren't sinning are you Troubled?

Of course, perhaps he is not answering you because he is busy, at the moment, helping Aunt Milly find a parking space at the mall, or too busy prompting Uncle Fred where he can find his car keys. Or busy helping all the "worthy" mormons prepare their gospel doctrine lessons.

You know, this notion of "relax and it will come to you" is exactly what the Scientologists told me when I was investigating their foundational claims. I could not "see" their Truth. I was told that many don't get it at first... and then... BAM! it hits you all at once. Same thing with Eckankar. It's pretty much the same with all religions that claim they are the ONLY true one on earth.

puh lease. Just hang in there. You'll eventually convince yourself that Mormonism is true.

Noggin

[Troubled]

Good reply, Troubled.

You aren't sinning are you Troubled?

Yes, as a matter of fact I am. I mean that quite seriously. I sin often and have much to repent of. But, my sins today are no greater than they were when I had a firm faith, and they do not appear to be any greater or more frequent than the those of the many people I know quite well who remain firm in their faith. The notion that God would withhold answers to prayers from sinners seems rather odd to me. That is what it is all about--reclaiming sinners. If God won't talk to them, he won't be doing much talking.

[emeliza]

Troubled~

God has never spoken to you? You have never felt Him? I am so sorry. Since that is the case, I guess I would also go with Why Me's answer for the most part as well. Honestly to ask about the BoM prior to ever even talked to God would be really hard. Not sure about the whole, you aren't ready thing....but it is a big step to going from--Never heard or felt God to God answering a huge question. Unfortunately a relationship with God and Christ isn't like in the movies where one day He just appears to you or you hear His voice come down from the heavens. Not to say that can't happen, but that isn't the norm. Do you believe in God, in Christ? That is probably the first step if you don't.

[Kevin Christensen]

Troubled:

You might want to consider the wide range of ways that people (whether LDS or not) encounter the divine. I've only rarely (if ever) felt the burning in the bossom" but there is a lot more to it than that. I had these published in the Meridian last year.

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/articles/060103prayer.html

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/articles/0...Experience.html

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/articles/060215model.html

Best,

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Scott Lloyd]

The problem here is that you are questioning people's sincerity, as if we don't really mean what we say. We just make up excuses for leaving. Do you not understand how offensive this is?

No more offensive than the near-universal implication by adversaries of the Church that believing members remain with the faith because they lack the capacity or will to view it intellectually.

[Noggin]

I was going to say it seems like it's the apostates or ex's or whatever they want to call themselves who get all worked up and rabid in their defense of their unbelief.

Yeah. Probably so. Religion is fascinating. Rabidity? If I am rabid, then that is what being alive feels like. I guess. Religion is worth poking and probing at.

Noggin wrote:

I suggest, for an activity of enlightenment, that any believing Mormon who has not done so, go out and study with any or all of these religions to discover just how deeply the others "know" that their's is true and Mormonism is false.

Juliann responded:

Uh...isn't that self-evident? Why would anyone have to discover the obvious? I would suggest you study other religion for what you can learn from the religion.

You know, perhaps it is self-evident, but if it is self-evident, shouldn't there be a rankling question rattling around in the back of everyone's mind? Who then knows what is Truth? And how do they know that? And is their method of knowing this Truth any more obviously bullet proof than the rest? If the Truth of these other religions is so obvious to them but not to you... therein lies the problem. Don't you ask why? Why are they just as convinced they are right about the things of god? They look at their "proofs" that "prove" their religion is true, feel really great when they attend, attribute that feeling to god smiling upon them, pray about their religious endeavors and feel god guiding them... just like Mormons. Feelings. Feelings prove nothing.

Juliann wrote:

Do you ever read what you write?

I suppose you are deflecting so that you don't have to directly respond to my assertions. What part of my outline re: the various religions with exclusive One and Only True Church of God claims is confusing you? I mention that I have studied with various religions to see how they claim they are the true church, I post that these religions get agitated when I challenge their exclusivity claim... and then, basically, I get mocked by you as if I write laughable full-of-holes anecdotes hardly worth responding to. It's not bothering me that I have been dismissed by you, what bothers me is that I suspect that there are more than a few people who have not experienced the convincingly powerful faith based arguments of other faiths. No I lied. I suppose I am bothered by the dismissal. Should I detect a smugness in the dismissal? As in Juliann & company are smart enough to see past the obvious holes in the other religion's exclusivity claims but I am not? There is that tone again. The tone that has the flavor of "You are a fool to have left Mormonism". It's your board, you have the right to that tone.

Tell me, how is your religion's exclusivity claim more bullet proof than the other 101?

It's not. Yours is just as full of holes as theirs are.

Noggin

[cacheman]

The problem here is that you are questioning people's sincerity, as if we don't really mean what we say. We just make up excuses for leaving. Do you not understand how offensive this is?

No more offensive than the near-universal implication by adversaries of the Church that believing members remain with the faith because they lack the capacity or will to view it intellectually.

I agree with both posters here. I believe that both assumptions are uncharitable at best. The golden rule would be a good remedy for these types of accusations.

cacheman

[Not quite me]

No more offensive than the near-universal implication by adversaries of the Church that believing members remain with the faith because they lack the capacity or will to view it intellectually.

I for one have never made that implication. Not once. My position has always been that we simply have reached different conclusions. And frankly, it's dismaying that you would think that because some people make offensive statements, you and charity are entitled to do likewise.

[blueadept]

No more offensive than the near-universal implication by adversaries of the Church that believing members remain with the faith because they lack the capacity or will to view it intellectually.

As a non-member, I believe I have given up about trying to talk about Mormonism from an intellectual standpoint. My intellectual problems which start with JS and the BoM falls on deaf ears when discussing issues with members of the LDS church or my TBM wife. I simply give my testimony with following the Golden Rule of keeping God first in my life, following the examples of Christ, and showing my charity to others. We agree to disagree who is 'following the Spirit' and the 'true church' thing. Oh well.