Exit Or Not

[simply_disappear]

Somehow I don't think they bother too long with why we believe and they don't. Not a good portion of those who exit. I think instead they become feeling dejected by the idea that we who remain believing still believe Christ when He taught us and continues to teach us that those who apostacize first doubt, then find fault and then find all matters at hand to placate their current position.

[simply_disappear]

Why is it so hard for some people to understand that most people who leave agonize over it? The church was our life, but we just decided one day we didn't feel like doing that anymore? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.

I believe this. Some people really want to believe but can't seem to do it. (This is not meant to be negative in any way.)

Is it possible there are three exit stories?

One from people who simply don't go as often and then fade off into the sunset. They often maintain a testimony but simply don't go.

The second is from people like Not quite me who really do agonize over it. Church is their life and they become disillusioned or disbelieving.

The third is from people who don't like the lifestyle.

Am I off track or do people agree with this?

Recently, I was asked to speak on the topic of supporting the less active. My husband was asked to speak about the dangers of becoming less active. We both have extensive personal knowledge and experience on these topics and I have to wonder why at this time in our lives we were asked to speak on the topics and then I think.....no, I know exactly why.

I studied diligently and pondered and prayed to know what the people there would need to hear.

Here is my talk if you are interested and the reason I'm posting it is because it identifies those who leave and fall away from the Church to a tee. You are right...there are three categories. This is long and I wasn't able to deliver all of it as time didn't allow since my dd 16 also presented a beautiful talk on observing the Sabbath and my dh still had his messages to present. I wept through the entire talk after the first section. It was a subtle weeping not full out buy it spoke gently as a reminder to myself how remarkable the power of the Atonement is in each of our lives and the obligation we have as brothers and sisters in the gospel to do our solemn duty to seek and find and bring back.

It is with humility that I stand before you as one of the Lordâ??s servants with a prayer in my heart that someone, somewhere, will be touched by the Spirit of the Lord which, hopefully, will speak through me, and his or her heart and life will be changed.

Iâ??ve learned a few things taking a yoga class from a friend of mine. One thing is that a deep, cleansing breath will prepare your body and mind for the next position you are about to embark on. Since positions in yoga are exaggerated and prolonged, the breath serves as a refresher for the muscles so that the body has plenty of oxygen to actually do the pose and that the mind is renewed for the time frame so as to concentrate on remaining in the pose for the extended period of time-- correctly. Both of these things are necessary to receive maximum benefit from the pose.

The same can be said for supporting those in our lives who are less active in the gospel. Often times, we need to take those deep, cleansing breaths so that we can redirect our energy and focus to that which is important to the Lord. So, we are going to do a little exercise. Iâ??d like you to sit up straight, pull your shoulders back and slowly let your shoulders drop to a natural place, now, close your eyes for a moment... and take a deep cleansing breath..........okay....close your eyes, now ..in through the nose and out through the mouth....slowly releasing the breath, steadily..... keeping your eyes shut even at the end of the breath. Follow my instructions......think in your mind of those in your life who are in need of strengthening whether temporally or spiritually. Concentrate on those in your life who are in need of friendship, compassion, spiritual uplifting, temporal sustenance, KEEP YOUR EYES CLOSED..........keep thinking of these people and slowly open your eyes. Now, slowly look around you, meeting each other with your eyes. Take a good look. THESE are the people in your life at this moment who are in need of your support to remain active in the gospel.

You may say what? These people are in Church with me each week, or these people are in Church today...so how could they need my help....they are already on their way. I ask you the question.......What does a less active person look like? We know about our brothers and sisters who donâ??t come to Church. We know they are in need. But how did they get there? How did they become less active. The short and simple answer is a general one. We donâ??t know the real, full reason. Only they know. Many contributing factors, possibly. One contributing factor? The point is.....it doesnâ??t matter why they are less active. What matters is what WE do to aid them in their journey to returning to their Father in Heaven. It is important that we keep part of our focus concentration on our brethren and sisters who are not here with us on a regular basis but I want to make sure you understand that we have need of concentrating just as deeply on those who are in this room on a regular basis. Why? Because we never know who is less active in a way that you could never see. Again....you are asking what do you mean? What I mean is that there are those in this very room who are here in body only. They have checked out spiritually for whatever reason and are in need of every bit as much of our support as those we donâ??t see here on a regular basis.

. Matt. 18: 12-13

12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred asheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

. Luke 15: 4

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine ain the wilderness, and go after that which is blost, until he find it?

The Lord requires usâ??yes, you and meâ??to locate the less-active members and help them to return to the fold.

. â??For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them outâ? (Ezek. 34:11).

Yes, we are to both â??search my sheepâ? (locate them) and then â??seek outâ? (bring back) less-active members and families, with unending and unqualified love.

Be as prepared as you can spiritually to support those who are struggling whether they are here each week or they donâ??t come at all. It is our solemn duty to find each one and help them make the choice to come back. As Paul taught us....without each member of the body of Christ we are incomplete

Paul likened the body of Christ, or the Church, to the body of a man, stating that each member is essential to the whole. â??The eye,â? he said, â??cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee.â? (. 1 Cor. 12:21.) As the body of a man is incomplete if some member is missing, so it is with the Church. All members have some function to serve; each has something to contribute.

In his analogy, Paul made special mention of:

â??Members â??which seem to be more feeble.â? He stated that they â??are necessary.â? (1 Cor. 12:22; italics added.)

â??Members â??which we think to be less honourable.â? Such, he wrote, were to receive â??more abundant honour.â? (1 Cor. 12:23; italics added.)

â??Members of the body referred to as â??our uncomely partsâ? who were to receive â??more abundant comeliness.â? (1 Cor. 12:23.)

Listen to Paulâ??s instructive words: â??God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

â??And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.â? (1 Cor. 12:24â??26.)

Few words found in the scriptures are more poignant than these: â??I looked on my right hand, and beheld, but there was no man that would know me: refuge failed me; no man cared for my soul.â? (Ps. 142:4.) Do any members of the Church feel that they are unknown and uncared for? Have we turned our faces away from some whose lives appear less than Saintly?

Who?

As we seek to know and to understand those we should invite back into the mainstream of the Church, we might consider the parables of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son. (See Luke 15.)

The lost sheep spoken of by the Savior could represent the member of the fold who strays from the path, following rather passively the enticements of the world. He may not do so with planned or malicious intent; he simply follows the crowd and melds into the group that shows him the greater interest. Usually, a lost sheep will respond to overtures of genuine love, concern, and proper fellowship.

Perhaps the Savior used the parable of the lost coin to demonstrate that a valuable soul, like a piece of silver, may be lost through neglect. At times, leaders and teachers become neglectful, even offensive, and allow others to slip away. If this happens, and it can happen very easily, the responsible party should light the candle, sweep the floor, and do all within his power to recover the coin before it becomes encrusted with dust and is lost forever.

The prodigal son may represent those who openly rebel against heaven and home. The prodigal is often one who feels he might know more than his elders, who wants to try his own wings in uncertain areas, or who stumbles and falls while walking the slippery path of youth. Those close by may not understand the exact reason for the rebellion. However, the prodigalâ??s soul is of great worth and he should never be abandoned. Prayers, pleadings, persistent love, and the welcome mat at the door often win him back. (See James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, 3d. ed., Salt Lake City, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1916, pp. 454â??61.)

We must understand and seek out the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son. Whatever the reason for their loss or estrangement, their souls are of infinite worth; they are vital members of the body of Christ.

Iâ??d like to tell a story of a man who was the youngest of 16 children who left home and the Church when he was 16. He joined the military at this young age and eventually served 3 tours in Viet Nam, made 9 World Cruises on various air craft carriers and retired from the Navy with honor. He reared a family of two young boys who he had not fathered, and had two girls of his own. He was uninterested in the Church during a good majority of this time. He was not the best example of what a LDS member is. He still loved his family and he was a good father. His wife had joined the Church shortly after their marriage but wasnâ??t really in full activity for many years although she did make hearty attempts in that regard. The couple never turned the missionaries down when they would come to visit nor did they turn away the members devotion to them.

This man had a terrible time with the word of wisdom. He also had a hard heart. He would sit in attendance of the FHE his wife would prepare with a cigarette and coffee at his side. He would pretend not to be listening but inside something was eating at him to do better.

When he retired, he moved his family to the middle of nowhere as they liked to call it. Within the span of two years, a branch had been established in their area and faithful men came out 45 miles one way to help serve this little branch which had no Melchezidek Priesthood holders. This man would not attend because he had the WoW problem. He felt he had to be â??perfectâ? to come back. The brethren who came out each week also made friendly calls and visits to the brother in his home. They became interested in the man and not the manâ??s faults. They became friends. They became brothers in Christ. They became the bearers of the influence which changed the manâ??s heart.

Soon, the man put away his alcohol, tobacco and foul language. He not only changed physical habits, but he began a life of new spiritual habits during those years. He poured over the scriptures, good books, and found good friends who didnâ??t have poor influence over him. He allowed Christ to change his heart and his life just as Alma did.

The man has spent the past 30 years touching other peopleâ??s lives with the gospel message. He says that it is the least he can do. He remains close friends of the men who helped him return to the path back to our Father in Heaven and they remain that way because of the love and compassion each of them exhibited through their own relationship with their Saviour. What those men did was to reactivate one of the most important men in my life. My father.

I love them for that. I ask for blessings on their behalf daily because without their faithfulness to the finding of the ONE lost sheep I would not be here.

Focus on those who are among us as well. We never know who is struggling. I recall a sister who went to Church with her small children and her husband sometimes went but not always. Eventually, she became disenchanted with the quality or lack thereof for friendship in the ward. Itâ??s not that she hadnâ??t tried to make friendships but that they just werenâ??t clicking. She gave honest effort in the matter but soon fell back into some old ways she had in the past and now became her present disallowing the fullness of the companionship of the Holy Ghost. There were many sisters who noticed this. They missed her at Church and in the circle they had all been a part of. She was missed in her Primary calling as well. Sorely, since she was the secretary and we all know how invaluable a good secretary is! Her visiting teachers consisted of a sister she didnâ??t know along with a sister she had helped bring into the Church. These women worked tirelessly to bring the compassion into this sisterâ??s life because at the time, she was the lost ONE Christ sought. They visited her, prayed for her, prayed with her, listened as she related problems to her. They saw needs she had which she thought were hidden. They were in tune to her. They were loving her the way Christ would. She remained hardened to the messages of the gospel. She was bitter for reasons known only to her. So much so that one day when a set of sister missionaries came to her door, she turned them away stating it was the daily naptime and not a good time to talk. She cried inside when she closed the door. Hoping they would come again. She felt that she was just not worthy of all of that the gospel had to offer and their presence only magnified that feeling.

They came again but it was at the same time as the last. She was frustrated with them for their lack of understanding that she had sleeping children and this time she told them on no uncertain terms not to come again and promptly shut the door in their faces. Crying again at the lost prospect of having the Spirit in her home but on the same hand being angry that they just didnâ??t understand what it was like to be a mother with sleeping children she lamented her actions for months.

Her visiting teachers came still. Her home teachers came to give her a blessing even. Then the family moved.

They hadnâ??t been established long in their new place when the doorbell rang. She was excited as she looked out the window to see sister missionaries. A new opportunity to start over was her thought. She cheerfully opened the door and her heart sank immediately. There standing in front of her was the same sister she had in months past shut the door on.

The sister embraced her and said â??Itâ??s so good to see you again!â? That was it. She was in and she knew that she couldnâ??t deny the Spirit any longer. From there, she grew spiritually, but not without some stumbling blocks, of course and she stands in front of you all today to deliver the message to do as Christ says and to find the ONE which is in need and bring them back.

We all count....even when we feel we donâ??t. We are privileged to be members of the body of Christ and it is our solemn duty to help each magnify that calling.

Meet a brother who embraced the gospel despite his new wifeâ??s resistance to his being baptized. And she was a lifelong member...imagine that! He embraced the gospel message after having been shuffled around to about as many churches in his youth as one could dream up. He knew the message in the scriptures was true and when he heard the message of the missionaries he wanted to be a part of it. After a while of activity and a firm testimony gained life occured day after day and being in the military with opposing influences abounding, he gave in and although he didnâ??t completely leave God out of the equation, he purposefully didnâ??t include Him because it meant time and committment and effort he didnâ??t feel he had to give. Donâ??t take this wrong....he was a great man, great father and husband but very busy.

Over the years, Brothers and sisters sought this man out. Gave of their time and friendship. His FIL took time to become friends with him and his wife although exasperated sometimes with him stood by his side and welcomed any sign of returning to the path of God that he gave. Soon though times became difficult for him and he felt as if it was either he concentrate on one thing and stop trying to divide himself so as to give 100% to either providing for his family or to God. The good man that he is...he chose his family. His wife grew weary of the ups and downs that occurred in their life due to the unstable spirituality which came from what she perceived to be his â??inactivityâ? and she thought all was lost. She had nearly given up.

Then a friend called and asked had she heard her motherâ??s talk in Church.....in fact, n o she hadnâ??t. She had left early that day frustrated and upset that her eternal companion was not with her. She found out the message and it changed her life. Her dear friend related the message as being that when her mother had been in despair that she learned that by loving her husband with the same type of love that Christ loved him with she was better able to cope with the ups and down which came with loving a less active member. I stand before you today to testify that as I have actively put this wisdom of Sister _________'s and ultimately the Lord's to work in my life that it has been bearable and even wonderful to be married to one who has a differing point of view or a testimony which doesn't prompt them to be fully active in our faith.

The man in this last story is my dearest husband and friend. He is here because of all of us heeding the call to do as our Father in Heaven would have us to do and accept unconditionally those who are in need, those who are not the same as we are individually, or those who actively seek to go on another path in life.

It is difficult when the less active is a part of who you are. But it is possible to love them unconditionally as Christ would have it to be. We have the duty to find it because where much is given, much is required.

It was difficult and I suppose it isnâ??t easy to do but it is true that when we exhibit the type of love that is exemplified by our Lord, Master and Savior that we find it within ourselves to become the follower we were born to be and the friend, spouse, child or parent that every less active person truly needs.

I testify that as we make ourselves available to the Holy Ghost and heed His promptings to do the Lordâ??s work....we will find each one of those who are lost and we will be able to help them make the decision to come back to the fold and be fed.

So, letâ??s all take a deep cleansing breath. We are not all here. There is much work to do. Take this breath, cleanse your system and focus and begin each day anew to do the Lordâ??s work finding the ONE which you can personally help. Take care to prepare yourself to be there when the Lord needs you. You never know who it is you may be supporting and in what way. It could be youâ??re a future Bishop as in the case of my father or it could be just a great friend you may grow to have as in my case. Either way, you must know you are on the errand of the Lord each day you arise.

In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

[Yong Xi]

I suspect that those people who desire to "exit" will latch onto whatever perceived weakness they can find in church history, doctrine, or practice in order to feel a sense of justification for their actions. Some people do not really want to be convinced that their viewpoint is inaccurate or deficient (for lack of extensive research). Some people are probably even willing to use Dan Peterson's alleged excessive consumption of donuts as an excuse for apostasy!

I suspect that those people who desire to "stay" will latch onto whatever perceived strength they can find in church history, doctrine, or practice in order to feel a sense of justification for their actions. Some people do not really want to be convinced that their viewpoint is inaccurate or deficient (for lack of extensive research). Some people are probably even willing to use FAIR/FARMS alleged ability to counter critic's claims as an excuse to remain active!

[Not quite me]

not quite me, "hurt" indicates something is going on. You don't know me, my opinion of what you do or don't do should have no emotional impact on you.

Of course, I am going to think I am right and you are wrong. If I didn't, I would leave the church. But obviously I have chosen to stay. So I consider myself right and since you are on the opposite side of the fence, you are wrong.

And do you really think that you went through all the evidences both ways, made one pile here and one pile there, and then looked at them and asked, "What should I do now?" It doesn't work that way. Because of the nature of the question, if there is any evidence that the Church is true, all the evidence to the contrary will not overweigh it. If Joseph Smith had a vision, whether or not he was paid to find a silver mine, or tried to sell a copyright, or supported a bank that failed, none of that matters.

"Hurt" means that you said something unbelievably insensitive and hurtful. Obviously, you think you're right and I'm wrong. If that's all there were to it, what you said would not have been hurtful. That's not what you said.

[simply_disappear]

Why can't people talk about this stuff without it always ending up in a you are hurting me/ no I'm not episode?

The points are going to be opposite. Noone intends for them to hurt anyone.

[juliann]

I do not obviously feel the "spirit" is a valid way to go. I personally believe that what I used to call the spirit can be answered for on psychological grounds. Trying to prove that the spirit exists is obviously a waste of time. You take it for what you have been taught it is by the scriptures, or the church, or the spirit itself, which all becomes a vicious circle to me, and thus quite useless as anything reliable. Or you give up the idea and redefine it.

If you give up the idea, sliding right out of the church is quite easy from that point. Not painless, mind you, but quite easy, meaning, the absurdities of what you once believed stand out in very stark contrast to what now, having slid out, seems so clear and reasonable. The "how could I have been so stupid?" thing.

So, I guess what I am trying to say is that when you do believe in the spirit, it is much easier to accept things on faith, even things that seem very unreasonable, otherwise. That is why believers have strong bookshelves. A lot of things have to be kept there until the millenium when hopefully all becomes clear, but until then, they must rely on the spirit and their testimonies and apologetics from FAIR or other sources, to try to make sense of it all until then.

Just my .02, if it can be of help, at all.

Nicely put, Gramps. I think "give up on the idea and redefine" explains just about everything...on both sides. We make a choice on what we will accept and what we won't. At each little juncture we get closer or further away from a point as the choices branch off into a direction. We convert or deconvert..ourselves. That does not have to discount whatever enlightenment (regardless of how one chooses to define that) we may feel we have encountered. It is what Stark et.al., describe as rational behavior. No human being seeks unhappiness or difficulty. Our choices are rational in that they are made on the basis of what we need to achieve happiness (or whatever one titles that state of being).

[Not quite me]

Why can't people talk about this stuff without it always ending up in a you are hurting me/ no I'm not episode?

The points are going to be opposite. Noone intends for them to hurt anyone.

So, telling someone that their reasons for not believing are just excuses is not hurtful? I try not to take things personally, but that's going too far.

[William Schryver]

simply disappear,

Thank you.

I wish I had been there to hear it.

[juliann]

Not quite, remember that this board is inundated with anti-Mormons whose purpose is to hurt. You are in the minority so comments are always going to be directed towards the virulent anti-Mormons because that is what we deal with day in and day out on these boards. Don't insert yourself in places you don't belong and don't assume that we (speaking for the majority of LDS here) do.

[Not quite me]

Not quite, remember that this board is inundated with anti-Mormons whose purpose is to hurt. You are in the minority so comments are always going to be directed towards the virulent anti-Mormons because that is what we deal with day in and day out on these boards. Don't insert yourself in places you don't belong and don't assume that we (speaking for the majority of LDS here) do.

Yeah, maybe I don't belong here. But even if I were a virulent anti-Mormon, what charity said was wrong and offensive. Maybe I'll see y'all around somewhere else.

[simply_disappear]

simply disappear,

Thank you.

I wish I had been there to hear it.

I'm thankful you took the time to read it.

[simply_disappear]

Not quite, remember that this board is inundated with anti-Mormons whose purpose is to hurt. You are in the minority so comments are always going to be directed towards the virulent anti-Mormons because that is what we deal with day in and day out on these boards. Don't insert yourself in places you don't belong and don't assume that we (speaking for the majority of LDS here) do.

Yeah, maybe I don't belong here. But even if I were a virulent anti-Mormon, what charity said was wrong and offensive. Maybe I'll see y'all around somewhere else.

It wasn't wrong or offensive to you or to anyone in particular. It is her perspective and if I'm not mistaken that's what we come here for is to look at different ones of those, isn't it?

You know, in the talk I gave, I referenced a certain sister with some very useful wisdom I seek to employ in my life. She also gave me a bit of wisdom years ago when she sent me via her other daughter a hand drawn, hand colored pair of woodpecker "lips" in an envelope. The message accompanying the drawing said "to be in this ward or any other family requires us to have a beak as hard as a woodpecker's. "

In other words we need to build a thick skin to the things others would do regardless of their intent. ETA so that we can survive.

[Sethbag]

not quite me, I do not doubt your sincerity.. But have you addressed the issues that William brought up? Why do you think that thinking, searching, thoughtful, equally intelligent people as yourself, could follow the same process you did and they come out still believing? What is the difference between you and them?

One observation that I have, based on my own experience plus the experiences of many others I've talked to or read about, is that we used to believe just like the TBMs do, and for many of us, we had exposure to the "bad" things about the church before and yet continued on, and only eventually did we decided that the church wasn't true. If we go around saying everyone who believes is a retard, then we're calling ourselves retards.

I know I'm not a retard, and if you'd attacked the church from any anti-mormon position all the way up to three years ago, possibly even two years ago, I would quite likely have reacted just like you TBMs do, and started pulling out the clever dodges and whatnot. And I wouldn't have been doing it just to fool anyone; I would be doing it because I actually believed it all, and "knew" the church to be true, and had faith that there must be favorable answers to each of the anti-mormon points.

If you guys are retards for believing this, then I was a retard for at least 34 years of my life. Obviously that's not acceptable, either to me, or to you. Hence the explanations such as brainwashing, blinders on, scales on our eyes, whatever.

All of this allows for very smart people to keep believing. Of course, the anti position is that these smart people may be as smart as they want, but they've still got the blinders on. You would obviously disagree and say somehow we who lost our testimonies went from not having blinders on (when we still believed, like you) to suddenly having blinders on. These blinders you might say are things like losing the spirit, etc. Obviously one of the more common explanations is that we've sinned.

One thing I do know from my own experience. I recognize that I handled everything about the church fairly well until the day I realized that I had to decide to accept the very real possibility that the church was wrong. Once I accepted as real the possibility of the church being wrong, suddenly all the evidence against it started looking pretty obvious. Until this point in time, in my mental negotiations with myself, I would not allow for the church to be wrong. I knew it was true, and thus automatically disqualified any suggestion to the contrary. I now think the church is pretty obviously wrong, and obviously you would disagree.

I would suggest that, for a lot of smart TBMs, the fact that they are able to keep believing is related to the fact that they already believe, and think that they "know", and hence disqualify the possibility of its not being true. It becomes a total non-starter in their mental calculations.

[Calm]

No one can tell me I wanted that to happen.

This seems to assume that our wants are one dimensional or only exist on one level.

I don't think you wanted certain consequenses of your decision, but there was likely another want/desire that was stronger. So did you want to lose faith and all that entails...no; but you did want something more that required you to lose faith and all that entailed for you.

People may not 'choose' to leave the church, but they have place something in their lives as more important to them than the church and one of the consequences of that stronger choice is exiting the church in one form or the other.

This is in part why I believe we've been placed here on earth, we will certainly find out what is most important to us.

[simply_disappear]

No one can tell me I wanted that to happen.

This seems to assume that our wants are one dimensional or only exist on one level.

I don't think you wanted certain consequenses of your decision, but there was likely another want/desire that was stronger. So did you want to lose faith and all that entails...no; but you did want something more that required you to lose faith and all that entailed for you.

People may not 'choose' to leave the church, but they have place something in their lives as more important to them than the church and one of the consequences of that stronger choice is exiting the church in one form or the other.

This is in part why I believe we've been placed here on earth, we will certainly find out what is most important to us.

Exactly. For years I regretted ever telling my husband that God was first in my life. That He had to be in order for me to be what as a husband he needed me to be. I always tried to hang on to this belief that God was first and I wasn't always very good at exemplifying it, unfortunately, but have come to a point in my life in the past 10 or 11 years where it is priority in my life and now, my dearest husband understands it was no slight on him as a man but my attempt at humility to my Father in Heaven who has given us everything we have. That to do all we can in our power with all He has given us we must first come before Him and acknowledge His hand in our lives.

[The Dude]

Whatever basis is used to either believe or disbelieve; whatever fundamental processes are at work in the decision to have faith or lose faith, it has very little or nothing to do with the thoughts of the mind and much more to do with the feelings of the heart.

I rather think it always has to do with the feelings of the heart, and sometimes also has to do with the thoughts of the mind. Nobody leaves or stays only because of some book they read. Feelings and intuition are also involved, and for some people, that's all there is to it.

Of course, those who give primacy to the rational naturally believe that their approach is the superior one, whereas those who give primacy to their intuition believe otherwise.

Yeah, which goes along with what you say about following your instincts over your intellect every time. Hopefully that's an exaggeration.

[Neighbor]

On another thread there are some interesting comments about church exit stories. One thing that interests me is why some people exit while others don't.

Any thoughts?

Neighbor: And then there are people like Mr. Furgeson who chose to stay inspite of what he found. He gave his reason. He liked the friendships he'd developed through the years, and thought the Mormon church to be a wonderful 'club' to belong to. (my 'club', I forget his exact wording) He could attend, have fellowship with good friends and not worry a wit about titihing and so forth.

Too bad the missionaries aren't preaching the word like Jesus Christ did. Seems the issue is really above the level of the missionaries doesn't it.

[Irondukesteve]

Scott such a good question...and there are so many points of view and perspectives.

1. Whenever I question doctrines and policies I always look at my life and think "am i living the way I should be". It is one of those paradoxical arguments like which came first the chicken or the egg. Or in this case could it be "the sin or the disillusionment with the church". Nonetheless they seem to go together hand in hand. (but not all the time)

2. I think life is much more dynamic and colourful than black and white. I think that when we die we will see God's hand much more at play in our lives then we thought. I think that when we die we will be amazed at how simple it all was and how much scope there was for learning, growing and making mistakes on our path back to Christ's loving arms. I think we are here to learn certain lessons and I think the most important lessons we are meant to learn are humility, love, and following that "fuzzy, tingling, still small voice" that brings tears to one's eyes and a smile to one's face when there is nothing else apparently in the room. And unfortunately the best way to learn the importance of these things is through pride and making mistakes that hurt!

3. I still do have problems with the "stones in a hat". I love the temple, I love the church. I have a very simple testimony but yet I still do find it difficult to be completely certain about Joseph's translation abilities. Rationally and logically....I dont think Joseph looked into a hat and came out with a book. HOWEVER...I cannot deny as much as I want to the fact that I have felt the Spirit many times when thinking about the BoM and asking God about it. I just cant deny this no matter how hard I have wanted to. So now I am left to act with more faith than I have ever had to before. And just trust that God knows what he is doing.

[Tarski]

I suspect that those people who desire to "exit" will latch onto whatever perceived weakness they can find in church history, doctrine, or practice in order to feel a sense of justification for their actions. Some people do not really want to be convinced that their viewpoint is inaccurate or deficient (for lack of extensive research). Some people are probably even willing to use Dan Peterson's alleged excessive consumption of donuts as an excuse for apostasy!

I suspect that those people who desire to believe will latch onto whatever apologetics they can find to deflect obvious problems with church history, doctrine, or practice in order to feel comforted in the face of their own mortality and to continue with what they are used to. Some people do not really want to be convinced that their viewpoint is inaccurate or deficient (for lack of extensive research). Some people are probably even willing to use the personal imperfection of thoughtful critics as an excuse for not considering the logic of what they say.

[Not quite me]

I suspect that those people who desire to "exit" will latch onto whatever perceived weakness they can find in church history, doctrine, or practice in order to feel a sense of justification for their actions. Some people do not really want to be convinced that their viewpoint is inaccurate or deficient (for lack of extensive research). Some people are probably even willing to use Dan Peterson's alleged excessive consumption of donuts as an excuse for apostasy!

I suspect that those people who desire to believe will latch onto whatever apologetics they can find to deflect obvious problems with church history, doctrine, or practice in order to feel comforted in the face of their own mortality and to continue with what they are used to. Some people do not really want to be convinced that their viewpoint is inaccurate or deficient (for lack of extensive research). Some people are probably even willing to use the personal imperfection of thoughtful critics as an excuse for not considering the logic of what they say.

Maybe that's what apologetics is for. People decide they want to accept Mormonism, and then apologetics gives them a way to validate what they've accepted.

[William Schryver]

The Dude:

Yeah, which goes along with what you say about following your instincts over your intellect every time. wink.gif Hopefully that's an exaggeration.

Naturally, my "instincts" are coupled with my intellect all the time -- obviously I can't completely divorce my thinking processes from my "feeling" processes. But what I meant to convey is that when I don't believe my intellect has provided me with a sufficient answer, and assuming that my "instincts" provide an alternate possibility, I am quite comfortable in deferring to my "gut feel" in such situations.

[Not quite me]

The Dude:

Yeah, which goes along with what you say about following your instincts over your intellect every time. wink.gif Hopefully that's an exaggeration.

Naturally, my "instincts" are coupled with my intellect all the time -- obviously I can't completely divorce my thinking processes from my "feeling" processes. But what I meant to convey is that when I don't believe my intellect has provided me with a sufficient answer, and assuming that my "instincts" provide an alternate possibility, I am quite comfortable in deferring to my "gut feel" in such situations.

I can agree with that. But what do you do when your intellect and your "gut feel" tell you to exit Mormonism?

[Fatboy]

I suspect that those people who desire to "exit" will latch onto whatever perceived weakness they can find in church history, doctrine, or practice in order to feel a sense of justification for their actions. Some people do not really want to be convinced that their viewpoint is inaccurate or deficient (for lack of extensive research). Some people are probably even willing to use Dan Peterson's alleged excessive consumption of donuts as an excuse for apostasy!

This kind of statement I find really irritating. It's the idea that we who have left really wanted to leave and just found something to "latch onto" as to justify our desire.

I'm not really sure how it all happened for me. I read all the stuff that Scott mentioned, and for many years it didn't bother me. I rationalized this, shelved that, and kept on going in the church, strong in my testimony and sure I was on the right path. And then one day the rationalizations went, and the stuff I shelved couldn't be shelved anymore. No one can tell me I wanted that to happen. I went through a year of hell in my family because I couldn't make things work anymore.

When everything happened, I determined to do what I had always been taught. I fasted, I prayed, I read the Book of Mormon. I served in my callings. I had family prayer and scripture study. In the end, it didn't work. And not because I wanted to. Not because I didn't do extensive research. And not because of Dr. Peterson's dietary habits.

Why is it so hard for some people to understand that most people who leave agonize over it? The church was our life, but we just decided one day we didn't feel like doing that anymore? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.

Of course you find it irritating. You are the only one that left because the Holy Ghost told you it was false. And that you did not leave because you were offended, had your hurt feelings, or could not live by the standards. You are only here to learn and teach others of your reasons.

[Not quite me]

I suspect that those people who desire to "exit" will latch onto whatever perceived weakness they can find in church history, doctrine, or practice in order to feel a sense of justification for their actions. Some people do not really want to be convinced that their viewpoint is inaccurate or deficient (for lack of extensive research). Some people are probably even willing to use Dan Peterson's alleged excessive consumption of donuts as an excuse for apostasy!

This kind of statement I find really irritating. It's the idea that we who have left really wanted to leave and just found something to "latch onto" as to justify our desire.

I'm not really sure how it all happened for me. I read all the stuff that Scott mentioned, and for many years it didn't bother me. I rationalized this, shelved that, and kept on going in the church, strong in my testimony and sure I was on the right path. And then one day the rationalizations went, and the stuff I shelved couldn't be shelved anymore. No one can tell me I wanted that to happen. I went through a year of hell in my family because I couldn't make things work anymore.

When everything happened, I determined to do what I had always been taught. I fasted, I prayed, I read the Book of Mormon. I served in my callings. I had family prayer and scripture study. In the end, it didn't work. And not because I wanted to. Not because I didn't do extensive research. And not because of Dr. Peterson's dietary habits.

Why is it so hard for some people to understand that most people who leave agonize over it? The church was our life, but we just decided one day we didn't feel like doing that anymore? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.

Of course you find it irritating. You are the only one that left because the Holy Ghost told you it was false. And that you did not leave because you were offended, had your hurt feelings, or could not live by the standards. You are only here to learn and teach others of your reasons.

I didn't leave because the Holy Ghost told me it was false.

I wasn't offended.

I didn't leave over hurt feelings.

I still live by the church's standards.

I'm not here to teach anyone anything.

[Dale]

You can find impefection in anybody's church history, doctrine, or practice. It's real dissapointing some times to believe something was perfect, and then to find out it wasn't.