The Girl Who Taught Joseph Smith To Use Magic

[TheTanakas]

I came across an interesting and compelling documentary about Sally Chase 
and the other seer stones connected to Joseph Smith’s history. The Chases 
are also mentioned in a church article, which adds some other context. I 
hadn’t realized how significant September 22 is in this history.

 

[Sevenbak]

No thanks. There are enough legitimate sources of this information without having to go to "mormon outreach" sites. 

 

[Pyreaux]

The podcast implies that Joseph’s use of stones means his work was born out of magic rather than revelation. This narrative is a modern rhetorical reframing of history and displays blatant ignorance of Biblical divination and the assortment of physical tools used, like the Urim and Thummim in the Old Testament.

The host claims that biblical objects like Aaron’s rod, that turned into a snake and bloomed while dead, was just a "stick," while Joseph’s stones were "enchanted." This is a distinction without a difference. When Moses strikes a rock with his staff to bring forth water or tells the Israelites to look at a bronze serpent on his staff to be healed, God is imbuing a physical object with power. Joseph explicitly taught that the stones were useless without the Spirit of God. When he lost his gift after losing the 116 pages, the stones didn't work anymore. This proves the power wasn't in the stones.

While Joseph was aware of Sally Chase, the podcast portrays Joseph as her apprentice. There is no historical data, not even from the critics that describes any relationship between Joseph Smith and Sally Chase. The Chase family lived about 3 miles from the Smith farm. Records confirm Sally Chase was known in the neighborhood for her "green glass" around 1819–1820 when Joseph was approximately 14 years old. Later neighbors' affidavits collected by E.D. Howe in 1834 state Joseph was intrigued by her stone and once went to see it. Seeing it does not constitute an apprentice.

The podcast cites a school friend saying Joseph "inquired of her where to dig." This is a hearsay account recorded decades after the fact. If Sally was his teacher in the use of seeing stones, one would expect their methods would be the same. Sally's primary method involved holding her green glass up to the sunlight to see "wonderful things." Joseph’s method involved placing a stone in a hat to exclude all light, the stone glowed, like the Urim and Thummim stones did. It produced a book.

The historical record shows Joseph was often reluctant to participate in money digging, and Josiah Stowell coaxed him to do it. The podcast claims the Joseph Smith Papers prove Joseph was a money digger before Josiah Stowell hired him. For those in extreme poverty, "treasure seeking" was a common, desperate, pursuit for many. Even if that is the case, it misses the idea of any transformation of a young man, and that Joseph had to redirect his gifts.

He mentions a failed attempt to sell the copyright in Canada as proof of a false spirit. A well-known story, as Joseph’s response was that some revelations are from God, some from man, and some from the devil. Joseph had to learn to distinguish his own thoughts from the promptings of the Spirit. It portrays the prophet is still growing rather than a perfect robot.

The host uses Acts 19's burning magic books to say Joseph should have disposed of his childhood stones. It seems Joseph did move away from folk treasure hunts. He didn't ditch his stones because he viewed them as sacred instruments provided to him by God for a specific reason. By the time Joseph was an experienced Prophet in Nauvoo, he largely stopped using stones altogether, stating that he had learned to receive the spirit of revelation directly.

The outcome matters most. A naturalistic theory that requires a magic stone doesn't come close to explain how he gets several other people to see angels, ancient prophets and golden plates. How magic trickery generates the literary complexity of the book or if its devilry, how it birthed a pro-Jesus book that exudes a positive spiritual witness millions feel when reading it? No amount of 'magic' produced the Book of Mormon.

The podcast links September 22nd to folk magic. This is because it's the timing of the equinox. The equinox also coincides with the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles which is linked to the gathering of Israel. The claim September 22nd was chosen for its 'magical' properties ignores the biblical significance.

Edited April 19 by Pyreaux

[Kenngo1969]

Your mileage may vary, not valid in all areas, void where prohibited, restrictions apply, see local retailer for details, but ... extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[The Nehor]

A bit tenuous. There were probably a couple of treasure hunting magic users in the area Joseph could have learned from. While this is the tail end of the treasure hunting expedition craze that started in the Early Modern Period that just means the way it works is pretty well established. There is no need for mentor/apprentice relationships. Seriously I read a few articles on it and I can do treasure hunting sorcery. You just guide the diggers to the spot, talk about your metaphysical battle with the treasure guardian while they are digging, mention that the treasure is slippery or is sinking and try to compel the guardian to relinquish the treasure. Call on God, use some angelic names, throw in a few polytheistic deities and/or demonic names to try to compel the guardian away and then declare that the effort failed. Maybe say that you can see it and reach into the hole and then be struck back by some supernatural power.

A bit of a theater, a bit of dramatics, someone with a vibrant enough imagination could even believe it is real while doing it.

[Pyreaux]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

A bit tenuous. There were probably a couple of treasure hunting magic users in the area Joseph could have learned from. While this is the tail end of the treasure hunting expedition craze that started in the Early Modern Period that just means the way it works is pretty well established. There is no need for mentor/apprentice relationships. Seriously I read a few articles on it and I can do treasure hunting sorcery. You just guide the diggers to the spot, talk about your metaphysical battle with the treasure guardian while they are digging, mention that the treasure is slippery or is sinking and try to compel the guardian to relinquish the treasure. Call on God, use some angelic names, throw in a few polytheistic deities and/or demonic names to try to compel the guardian away and then declare that the effort failed. Maybe say that you can see it and reach into the hole and then be struck back by some supernatural power.

A bit of a theater, a bit of dramatics, someone with a vibrant enough imagination could even believe it is real while doing it.

Alternatively, people are indeed seeing things, like some people maybe are inducing trances, which I believe happens, whether it's by conventional means like prolonged fasting or using magic mushrooms. Whatever method, I don't dismiss the validity of visions.

Belcher account, Joseph reportedly had success. He used a stone to find a cow that had been missing for two days. He allegedly "saw" the cow in the stone and directed the owner to it. I think in this video actually mentions a similar story involving Sally Chase, where a neighbor’s cattle went missing. In that specific account, the cattle were found in the opposite direction of where Sally said they were.

Joseph Smith, even in the eyes of Josiah Stowell and the neighbors who kept robbing the Smith house, consistently viewed Joseph as the real deal, that he was actually finding things. It seems like Joseph successfully helped neighbors find stray livestock and lost tools for pennies or a meal. 

Edited April 21 by Pyreaux

[The Nehor]

54 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Alternatively, people are indeed seeing things, like some people maybe are inducing trances, which I believe happens, whether it's by conventional means like prolonged fasting or using magic mushrooms. Whatever method, I don't dismiss the validity of visions.

That is what I meant when I said many believe it while doing it. Trances or colorful imagination or self-hypnosis and the like. I have had some ecstatic experiences and getting there is doable, at least for some.

54 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Belcher account, Joseph reportedly had success. He used a stone to find a cow that had been missing for two days. He allegedly "saw" the cow in the stone and directed the owner to it. I think in this video actually mentions a similar story involving Sally Chase, where a neighbor’s cattle went missing. In that specific account, the cattle were found in the opposite direction of where Sally said they were.

Joseph Smith, even in the eyes of Josiah Stowell and the neighbors who kept robbing the Smith house, consistently viewed Joseph as the real deal, that he was actually finding things. It seems like Joseph's was composed of successfully helped neighbors find stray livestock and lost tools for pennies or a meal. 

Yeah, but in many ways this is like praying to God you will find your keys. You often will find them afterwards. When you are looking for tools and livestock there is a good chance you find them eventually and gesturing in a direction might end up being right.

When it comes to treasure hunting the success rate appears to be zero. You can say the treasure slipped away and you were super close but no one seems to find a buried treasure with these magical abilities. The cynic in me sees Joseph’s story of being taken to the plates and then trying to get them but being pushed back for his greed for gold as a kind of encounter with a treasure guardian. Joseph is told to come back years later. Yet another failed treasure hunt.

Edited April 21 by The Nehor

[theplains]

The historical account on the weight of the plates varies.

One report indicates the plates were heavy; Joseph's 14 year old sister couldn't slide 
them across a table. Joseph even needed the help of others to move the plates.

"Members of the Smith family recalled helping Joseph move or hide the plates from his enemies. 
Joseph’s younger sister Katharine later told her husband she once tried moving the plates, 
covered with a cloth, across a table, but that they were too heavy" (Witnesses of the Book of Mormon).

Other reports recount the plates were light enough for Joseph to run with through the woods
and Katharine to take them from her brother when he returned from these woods and hide them in
her bed.

"She was an eyewitness to many important events of the Restoration, including hefting the covered 
gold plates after Joseph had brought them into the Smith home. Shortly after the plates were 
retrieved, Katharine was active in ensuring the safety of the plates—on one occasion hiding them 
in her bedcovers as a mob searched the Smith family home" (Biography of Katharine Smith Salisbury).

"He returned immediately and retrieved the plates. Wrapping them in a linen frock, he started through
the woods, thinking it might be safer than the traveled road. But just as he jumped over a log, he 
was struck from behind with a gun. Joseph, however, was able to knock his assailant down and flee. 
Half a mile later he was assaulted again but managed to escape, and before he arrived home he was
accosted a third time. His mother said that when he reached home he was "altogether speechless from 
fright and the fatigue of running" (January 2001 Ensign, Take Heed Continually).

Edited April 21 by theplains

[MiserereNobis]

September 22nd is indeed a VERY important day.

It's Bilbo and Frodo Baggins birthday. Hobbit Day!

[Pyreaux]

On 4/21/2026 at 3:43 PM, theplains said:

The historical account on the weight of the plates varies.

One report indicates the plates were heavy; Joseph's 14 year old sister couldn't slide 
them across a table. Joseph even needed the help of others to move the plates.

"Members of the Smith family recalled helping Joseph move or hide the plates from his enemies. 
Joseph’s younger sister Katharine later told her husband she once tried moving the plates, 
covered with a cloth, across a table, but that they were too heavy" (Witnesses of the Book of Mormon).

Other reports recount the plates were light enough for Joseph to run with through the woods
and Katharine to take them from her brother when he returned from these woods and hide them in
her bed.

"She was an eyewitness to many important events of the Restoration, including hefting the covered 
gold plates after Joseph had brought them into the Smith home. Shortly after the plates were 
retrieved, Katharine was active in ensuring the safety of the plates—on one occasion hiding them 
in her bedcovers as a mob searched the Smith family home" (Biography of Katharine Smith Salisbury).

"He returned immediately and retrieved the plates. Wrapping them in a linen frock, he started through
the woods, thinking it might be safer than the traveled road. But just as he jumped over a log, he 
was struck from behind with a gun. Joseph, however, was able to knock his assailant down and flee. 
Half a mile later he was assaulted again but managed to escape, and before he arrived home he was
accosted a third time. His mother said that when he reached home he was "altogether speechless from 
fright and the fatigue of running" (January 2001 Ensign, Take Heed Continually).

No, the accounts about the weight is rather consistent. Eyewitnesses who claimed to have hefted the plates and who commented on their weight generally provided a consistent weight range. With William estimating them at 60 lbs, Martin Harris suggested 40 to 50 lbs.

The account of Joseph, a young male running through the woods about 2-3 miles carrying 40-60 lbs of dead weight is a feat of extreme athleticism, but not physically impossible, and there are other factors that would help, such as if he really thought he was in danger he'd have an adrenaline response. Joseph didn't start running the moment he picked up the plates. He was likely more than halfway home.

Lucy Mack Smith describes three distinct attacks. After the first attacker struck him with a gun, Joseph knocked him down and then he "ran at the top of his speed" for about half a mile before a second attack. Following the third attack, the record states that Joseph reached a fence corner within sight of his home and "threw himself down... in order to recover his breath." Moving in half-mile bursts fueled by an adrenaline spike is very plausible. Its supported by the aftermath. When Joseph finally entered the house, he was described as being "altogether speechless from fright and the fatigue." He collapsed from the physical toll. Joseph reportedly dislocated his thumb. He was so focused on the flight response that he didn't even notice the injury until he finally stopped at the fence. Josiah Stowell testified under oath he saw Joseph Smith that night, he had a goldish object when he got home from the woods. By the accounts, he had something with him that day, and they were not light to carry.

The story of Katharine as a 14-year-old girl, a 50 lb object covered in cloth on a wooden table creates significant friction. For a young teenager, unbudgeable is a reasonable description for something that weighs as much as a standard bag of concrete when you push it horizontally. This is harder than a vertical lift because you can't easily use your legs or body weight for leverage. When Katharine supposedly hid the plates in her bed, the accounts typically describe her taking them from Joseph and moving them a very short distance. A few feet onto a mattress is a vastly different physical task than sliding them across a table.

The plates were clearly heavy enough to be a significant physical burden, difficult for a 14-year-old girl to slide on a table, but light enough that a man in his early 20s can transport them, even run if properly motivated.

Edited April 23 by Pyreaux