What would 2 Nephi 25:23 mean if you changed one word?

[GoCeltics]

On 2/5/2026 at 2:02 PM, teddyaware said:

The Latter-Day Saints believe the only way men can progress in the sanctification process, and eventually be crowned to reign as kings in heaven, is through the merciful process of being progressively filled with greater and greater portions of the Spirit of God until perfection in Christ is obtained. Truly, the only way men can become like God is by being filled with the Spirit of God, and this by virtue of the faithful becoming joint heirs with Christ in all that he himself possesses, including being endowed with an infinite and eternal portion of the Spirit of God.

Because, as Peter testified, the sanctified are made partakers of the divine nature through the atonement of Christ, God is thereby justly and properly able to fill those who overcome their fallen natures by faith in Christ with an infinite and eternal outpouring of the Spirit of God.

Thank you.

Found it further elaborated in the New Testament Student Study Guide.

The promises found in Romans 8 are impressive and inspiring. Before reading these words of Paul, consider the following statement from the Prophet Joseph Smith: “[You] shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 347).

I couldn’t find the concept of “joint heirs” mentioned elsewhere in LDS canon.

[GoCeltics]

On 2/5/2026 at 8:28 PM, InCognitus said:

Then how do you explain the "hope" for the grace that "is to be brought unto you", as a future realization of grace that isn't realized at the present time as detailed in 1 Peter 1:13-17 and Hebrews 12:14-15?

1 Peter 1:13–17:  "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;  As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.  And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear".

Hebrews 12:14-15:  "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled".

If you need it to be clearer, this is the RSV translation of 1 Peter 1:13, "Therefore gird up your minds, be sober, set your hope fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

The New Testament frequently speaks of grace in an “already but not yet” sense. We genuinely receive grace now in justification and new life, yet its fullness is future—resurrection, inheritance, and final salvation. Hope, then, is trusting that God will finish what His grace has started, and the warnings are there because perseverance in faith matters.

The conditions described in Moroni 10:32 don’t make Christ’s grace sufficient; rather, His grace is already sufficient, independent of our meeting those conditions.

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

The New Testament frequently speaks of grace in an “already but not yet” sense. We genuinely receive grace now in justification and new life, yet its fullness is future—resurrection, inheritance, and final salvation. Hope, then, is trusting that God will finish what His grace has started, and the warnings are there because perseverance in faith matters.

Agreed, however then you mix in this....

2 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

The conditions described in Moroni 10:32 don’t make Christ’s grace sufficient; rather, His grace is already sufficient, independent of our meeting those conditions.

Above you talked about resurrection, inheritance, and final salvation.  But you didn't include sanctification, which is what Moroni 10:32 is about.  And the same for Hebrews 12:14-15 (and many others that I listed):

Hebrews 12:14-15:  "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled".

Do you think that a person who doesn't follow "holiness" will "see the Lord" according to this verse?  Do you think "looking diligently lest any man fail the grace of God" means it's all a done deal with respect to individual sanctification?

This all fits with what it says in Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." 

What does this say?  "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever [all Christians]?"  No, it says "them that are sanctified".  And sanctification includes things like denying ungodliness and worldly lusts (Titus 2:11–14), purifying oneself (1 John 3:3), cleansing oneself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit and perfecting holiness (2 Corinthians 7:1), and basically being obedient (1 Peter 1:13-17) and keeping the commandments that Jesus gave (1 Thessalonians 4:1-7).

Edited February 8 by InCognitus

[teddyaware]

4 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Agreed, however then you mix in this....

Above you talked about resurrection, inheritance, and final salvation.  But you didn't include sanctification, which is what Moroni 10:32 is about.  And the same for Hebrews 12:14-15 (and many others that I listed):

Hebrews 12:14-15:  "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled".

Do you think that a person who doesn't follow "holiness" will "see the Lord" according to this verse?  Do you think "looking diligently lest any man fail the grace of God" means it's all a done deal with respect to individual sanctification?

This all fits with what it says in Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." 

What does this say?  "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever [all Christians]?"  No, it says "them that are sanctified".  And sanctification includes things like denying ungodliness and worldly lusts (Titus 2:11–14), purifying oneself (1 John 3:3), cleansing oneself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit and perfecting holiness (2 Corinthians 7:1), and basically being obedient (1 Peter 1:13-17) and keeping the commandments that Jesus gave (1 Thessalonians 4:1-7).

The New Testament is filled with many sections of scripture that make it abundantly clear the Lord expects his true disciples to be actively engaged participants in the process of sanctification, which is the divinely ordained program by which fallen man is enabled to overcome the fallen nature by conscientiously striving to grow in the grace, knowledge and power of God. But I must say that after many years of careful observation it appears to me that many non-Latter-Day Saint Christians deliberately avoid any focus on these particular portions of holy writ when discussing the gospel with Latter-Day Saints, which has left me with the impression that they regard this specific category of divine counsel to be less important doctrinal afterthoughts that will ultimately have little, if any, impact on the final state of redeemed man. The verses you cite above are representative of the many scriptural admonitions that unmistakably convey the knowledge that justification through the grace of Jesus Christ (obtaining a remission of sins) is inextricably linked to the additional commandment to continue to grown in grace by proactively engaging in the process of sanctification until the devoted follower of Christ is made holy as God is holy.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy, in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (1 Peter 1)

Edited February 9 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

On 2/8/2026 at 2:13 PM, GoCeltics said:

Thank you.

Found it further elaborated in the New Testament Student Study Guide.

The promises found in Romans 8 are impressive and inspiring. Before reading these words of Paul, consider the following statement from the Prophet Joseph Smith: “[You] shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 347).

I couldn’t find the concept of “joint heirs” mentioned elsewhere in LDS canon.

Perhaps you’re unaware of the fact that the LDS Canon includes the Bible, and it’s in the Bible that the words that speak of joint heirship with Christ are found?

17 And if children, then heirs, heirs  of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:17)

and…

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (Revelation 21)

Note that earlier in the Book of Revelation the faithful saints who overcome the world are, among other great eternal blessings, promised the right to rule and reign forever as heavenly kings and priests, with the very name God himself written on their foreheads, and the glorious right to be seated on the very throne of God’s own eternal power and authority while ruling as heavenly kings forever!

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)

In light of the above, one would have to honestly ask himself why in the world God would give men the right to be seated on the very throne of his almighty power and authority if he hasn’t endowed them with the same power, right and authority to be legitimately seated thereon?

Edited February 10 by teddyaware

[longview]

On 2/8/2026 at 7:06 PM, teddyaware said:

The New Testament is filled with many sections of scripture that make it abundantly clear the Lord expects his true disciples to be actively engaged participants in the process of sanctification, which is the divinely ordained program by which fallen man is enabled to overcome the fallen nature by conscientiously striving to grow in the grace, knowledge and power of God.

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

In light of the above, one would have to honestly ask himself why in the world God would give men the right to be seated on the very throne of his almighty power and authority if he hasn’t endowed them with the same power, right and authority to be legitimately seated thereon?

This is beautifully expressed. Kudos to you! ---(as I am unable to give you a rep point) 

[teddyaware]

18 minutes ago, longview said:

This is beautifully expressed. Kudos to you! ---(as I am unable to give you a rep point) 

Thanks longview! I’ve long considered you a kindred spirit and welcome presence on the board.

[GoCeltics]

On 2/10/2026 at 7:46 AM, teddyaware said:

Note that earlier in the Book of Revelation the faithful saints who overcome the world are, among other great eternal blessings, promised the right to rule and reign forever as heavenly kings and priests, with the very name God himself written on their foreheads, and the glorious right to be seated on the very throne of God’s own eternal power and authority while ruling as heavenly kings forever!

This applies to those who come forth in the first resurrection.

[GoCeltics]

On 2/8/2026 at 4:18 PM, InCognitus said:

Above you talked about resurrection, inheritance, and final salvation.  But you didn't include sanctification, which is what Moroni 10:32 is about.  And the same for Hebrews 12:14-15 (and many others that I listed):

Is Christ’s grace sufficient for you as you are, before sanctification, or does it only become sufficient after you meet all the conditions outlined in Moroni 10:32?

On 2/8/2026 at 4:18 PM, InCognitus said:

Do you think that a person who doesn't follow "holiness" will "see the Lord" according to this verse?  Do you think "looking diligently lest any man fail the grace of God" means it's all a done deal with respect to individual sanctification?

No. One must endure to the end.

[InCognitus]

On 2/11/2026 at 12:42 PM, GoCeltics said:

On 2/8/2026 at 2:18 PM, InCognitus said:

Above you talked about resurrection, inheritance, and final salvation.  But you didn't include sanctification, which is what Moroni 10:32 is about.  And the same for Hebrews 12:14-15 (and many others that I listed):

Is Christ’s grace sufficient for you as you are, before sanctification, or does it only become sufficient after you meet all the conditions outlined in Moroni 10:32?

Isn't that question answered in exactly the same way as you did for Hebrews 12:14-15 in your next comment?

As I noted above, perfecting holiness includes denying ungodliness and worldly lusts (Titus 2:11–14), purifying oneself (1 John 3:3), cleansing oneself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit and perfecting holiness (2 Corinthians 7:1), and basically being obedient (1 Peter 1:13-17) and keeping the commandments that Jesus gave (1 Thessalonians 4:1-7).  Doing those things get us closer to perfection and holiness, but it is "by his grace" that a person "may be perfect in Christ" as Moroni 10:32 says.  

On 2/11/2026 at 12:42 PM, GoCeltics said:

On 2/8/2026 at 2:18 PM, InCognitus said:

Do you think that a person who doesn't follow "holiness" will "see the Lord" according to this verse?  Do you think "looking diligently lest any man fail the grace of God" means it's all a done deal with respect to individual sanctification?

No. One must endure to the end.

Yes, Hebrews 12:14-15 says that if a person doesn't do those things he may "fail the grace of God".

[GoCeltics]

On 2/13/2026 at 1:21 AM, InCognitus said:

As I noted above, perfecting holiness includes denying ungodliness and worldly lusts (Titus 2:11–14), purifying oneself (1 John 3:3), cleansing oneself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit and perfecting holiness (2 Corinthians 7:1), and basically being obedient (1 Peter 1:13-17) and keeping the commandments that Jesus gave (1 Thessalonians 4:1-7).  Doing those things get us closer to perfection and holiness, but it is "by his grace" that a person "may be perfect in Christ" as Moroni 10:32 says. 

I understand your point, and it makes sense. However, it still doesn’t address my question.

Is Christ’s grace sufficient on its own before someone begins pursuing perfection and holiness? Or does it only become sufficient after a person first meets all the conditions you’ve described (similar to the framework in Moroni 10:32)?

In my view, God’s grace is already sufficient prior to justification and sanctification. There is never a point at which God’s grace is insufficient. It does not suddenly become sufficient only after someone satisfies all the conditions outlined in Moroni 10:32.

What is your view?
 

On 2/13/2026 at 1:21 AM, InCognitus said:

Yes, Hebrews 12:14-15 says that if a person doesn't do those things he may "fail the grace of God".

Has there ever been a time in your life when God’s grace was insufficient?

[teddyaware]

16 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

I understand your point, and it makes sense. However, it still doesn’t address my question.

Is Christ’s grace sufficient on its own before someone begins pursuing perfection and holiness? Or does it only become sufficient after a person first meets all the conditions you’ve described (similar to the framework in Moroni 10:32)?

In my view, God’s grace is already sufficient prior to justification and sanctification. There is never a point at which God’s grace is insufficient. It does not suddenly become sufficient only after someone satisfies all the conditions outlined in Moroni 10:32.

What is your view?
 

Has there ever been a time in your life when God’s grace was insufficient?

It’s so simple and perfectly Biblical… The remission of sins (justification) cannot be obtained without the mercy and grace of God manifested in and through the atonement of Jesus Christ; and sanctification unto holiness is also impossible to obtain without the enabling power manifested in and through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The question is this: if the initial degree of grace bestowed upon new believers is sufficient, why are believers commanded to continue to grow in grace. The answer’s obvious: ever increasing outpourings of grace are needed in order for the saints of God to grow unto “the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ,”

While it’s undeniably true that the fulness of God’s grace is fully available to the saints right from the start, it’s also true that every case increasing in the grace and knowledge of God is part of his merciful, divinely ordained process of spiritual growth. The unrestricted availability and accessibility of God’s grace is not the same as a believer possessing enough faith to receive the infinite and eternal fulness of God’s grace right from the start. And while it may indeed be theoretically possible to obtain the infinite and eternal fulness of God’s grace right from the start, the truth is that even the greats like Peter and Paul didn’t immediately obtain the fulness of God’s blessings  For example, if the Apostles Paul and Peter believed that they had availed themselves of the fulness of God’s grace right from the start, what in the world would inspire them to give the following inspired warnings? 

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3)

and…

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation ;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (1 Peter 1)

and…

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the long suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

18 But grow in the grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (2 Peter 3)

How is it possible to grow in grace if one has already obtained the fulness of God’s grace in his life? If this were the case, there would be no need for the many warnings throughout the Bible that speak of our indispensable need to strive in faith (faith is also a spiritual gift, a manifestation of God’s grace) in the earnest pursuit of obtaining full sanctification in Christ. Are all of these apostolic admonitions to spiritually improve by growing in the grace and knowledge of God nothing more than rhetorical hot air that will ultimately have no real consequences if the listeners to the warnings fail to heed them?

The bottom line? The unrestricted availability of the fullness of God’s grace isn’t the thing same as actually laying hold upon and obtaining the fulness of God’s grace and blessings. If it were otherwise, the law of the harvest would be nullified and God would end up being a cosmic adherent to a philosophy similar to woke DEI.

 

[InCognitus]

12 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

On 2/12/2026 at 11:21 PM, InCognitus said:

As I noted above, perfecting holiness includes denying ungodliness and worldly lusts (Titus 2:11–14), purifying oneself (1 John 3:3), cleansing oneself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit and perfecting holiness (2 Corinthians 7:1), and basically being obedient (1 Peter 1:13-17) and keeping the commandments that Jesus gave (1 Thessalonians 4:1-7).  Doing those things get us closer to perfection and holiness, but it is "by his grace" that a person "may be perfect in Christ" as Moroni 10:32 says. 

I understand your point, and it makes sense. However, it still doesn’t address my question.

Is Christ’s grace sufficient on its own before someone begins pursuing perfection and holiness? Or does it only become sufficient after a person first meets all the conditions you’ve described (similar to the framework in Moroni 10:32)?

In my view, God’s grace is already sufficient prior to justification and sanctification. There is never a point at which God’s grace is insufficient. It does not suddenly become sufficient only after someone satisfies all the conditions outlined in Moroni 10:32.

What is your view?

Obviously, Christ’s grace is sufficient for anything and everything in however he wants to apply it, now or anytime.

But the key to the question is, how and when does he apply it?

That depends on his purposes, does it not?  Ask yourself, why does anyone need to believe anything at all to be “saved”?  Isn’t Christ’s grace sufficient without belief?  Isn’t his grace sufficient without faith?   I would say it is sufficient.  But then why does Christ require our belief or faith to save us?

Why does God make us go through this life at all?  Why does he not just save us right now without us going through this whole process because his grace is sufficient?  It is because God has a greater purpose for us.

In the context of Moroni 10:32 (and in Titus 2:11–14, 1 John 3:3, 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Peter 1:13-17, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-7 and Hebrews 12:14-15), God wants us to be “perfecting holiness”.  He wants us to become something new; he wants us to be sanctified through his blood (partaking of his grace in the process), to become holy. 

Why doesn’t he just zap us and say, “poof, you are perfect and holy”?  The reason is that we wouldn’t learn anything by that process.  Jesus “gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works” (Titus 2:11-14).  Purifying unto himself a peculiar people is the process of purging out of them the impurities.  Therefore, “let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (2 Corinthians 7:1).  

12 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

On 2/12/2026 at 11:21 PM, InCognitus said:

Yes, Hebrews 12:14-15 says that if a person doesn't do those things he may "fail the grace of God".

Has there ever been a time in your life when God’s grace was insufficient?

Nope.

[The Nehor]

On 2/14/2026 at 12:09 PM, teddyaware said:

 

The bottom line? The unrestricted availability of the fullness of God’s grace isn’t the thing same as actually laying hold upon and obtaining the fulness of God’s grace and blessings. If it were otherwise, the law of the harvest would be nullified and God would end up being a cosmic adherent to a philosophy similar to woke DEI.

 

Well, that was the stupidest thing I’ve read today.

And I wasted time earlier reading about how pyramids are powered by ley lines.

[teddyaware]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Well, that was the stupidest thing I’ve read today.

And I wasted time earlier reading about how pyramids are powered by ley lines.

Of course you’d think it’s stupid due to the fact that you’re an advocate for Marxist inspired DEI, a perverse “participation trophy” society designed to demoralize and squelch man’s divinely implanted desire to multiply his talents and press onward and upward in faith, in favor of a counterproductive system of enforced equal outcomes where everyone is equally miserable. But that’s the whole point isn’t it? To the most radical advocates of DEI, it’s better if everyone is equally miserable because it’s more fair and just that way. And heaven forbid that the motivation to be valiant in the testimony of Jesus should bless a man with greater bestowals of heavenly rewards than the slothful believer who buries his talents and sits on his butt all day. In a perfect DEI universe nobody’s feelings would ever get hurt enough to inspire a remorse of conscience and a desire to repent. What a perfect world that would be because in the DEI “heaven” there would be no need for a Savior and everybody could just sit around playing video games in hell forever without a care in the world. 

Edited February 16 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

47 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Of course you’d think it’s stupid due to the fact that you’re an advocate for Marxist inspired DEI, a perverse “participation trophy” society designed to demoralize and squelch man’s divinely implanted desire to multiply his talents and press onward and upward in faith, in favor of a counterproductive system of enforced equal outcomes where everyone is equally miserable.

So your first point is that I support all this gobbledygook you just made up because I want everyone, including myself, to be as miserable as possible.

So I am not human? I have no desire for happiness and desire perpetual misery for myself and everyone I love? Do you realize how insane what you are saying is?

47 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

But that’s the whole point isn’t it?

Yes, I was born into the world desiring misery and so are all over people fighting for “Marxist” ideas like social justice and equality.

Lunacy.

47 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

To the most radical advocates of DEI, it’s better if everyone is equally miserable because it’s more fair and just that way.

A desire for justice and fairness is a desire for misery? So justice and fairness leads to misery? That is a radical take. So the United States was a big mistake?

47 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

And heaven forbid that the motivation to be valiant in the testimony of Jesus should bless a man with greater bestowals of heavenly rewards than the slothful believer who buries his talents and sits on his butt all day.

And now I am somehow envious of someone else’s unseen heavenly rewards? What? I don’t envy you. At all.

47 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

In a perfect DEI universe nobody’s feelings would ever get hurt enough to inspire a remorse of conscience and a desire to repent.

So now not only was I born without any desire for happiness and a lust for perpetual misery I now desire a perpetual safe space where I will never experience any negative emotions ever? Oh, and I lack all ambition for anything.

No wonder you live in perpetual fear of these imagined enemies you dream up? They sound monstrous. I could see how this would lead to xenophobia, homophobia, racism, and all the other fun fears about the ‘other’. I would grow up and realize that people actually experience the same emotions you do and have the same desires that you do. This fantasy world is toxic.

47 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

What a perfect world that would be because in the DEI “heaven” there would be no need for a Savior and everybody could just sit around playing video games in hell forever without a care in the world. 

So really you’re mad about those hellspawned ‘vidya games’ that make people deny Jesus and sap all their ambition somehow. There are no larger structural problems that make people unwilling to struggle to succeed as much as you think they should? It is just the vidya games.

 

You realize this contempt you have for a lot of the people in the world that dehumanizes them to the point that they are just pursuing evil for its own sake is pretty much the polar opposite of charity right?

 

 

 

[GoCeltics]

On 2/14/2026 at 1:09 PM, teddyaware said:

It’s so simple and perfectly Biblical… The remission of sins (justification) cannot be obtained without the mercy and grace of God manifested in and through the atonement of Jesus Christ; and sanctification unto holiness is also impossible to obtain without the enabling power manifested in and through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The question is this: if the initial degree of grace bestowed upon new believers is sufficient, why are believers commanded to continue to grow in grace. The answer’s obvious: ever increasing outpourings of grace are needed in order for the saints of God to grow unto “the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ,”

Ephesians 2:8–9 – “For by grace you have been saved through faith… not a result of works.”

This teaches:

• Salvation is a gift.
• It cannot be earned.
• It is received through faith.

Also, grace is relational. As believers grow in knowing Christ, they experience grace more deeply. The command to grow in grace is really a call to grow in: intimacy with Christ, trust in His sufficiency, and conformity to His character. Christ’s grace is always sufficient — but not always used.

One clear statement is in 2 Corinthians 12:9, where the Lord says to Paul: “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness.”

Christ’s grace is sufficient. Nothing needs to be added. No extra merit, no spiritual performance, no human effort. Grace is not partial. It fully accomplishes reconciliation with God.

When is Christ’s grace sufficient? Biblically speaking, Christ’s grace is sufficient in conversion, in temptation, in suffering, in weakness, in failure, in growth, and in death.

It is sufficient at the beginning, in the middle, and at the end.

The real question Scripture presses is not “When is His grace sufficient?” but “When will I rely on it?”

We don't have to follow all the conditions in Moroni 10:32 before His grace becomes sufficient.
 

On 2/14/2026 at 1:09 PM, teddyaware said:

 

How is it possible to grow in grace if one has already obtained the fulness of God’s grace in his life? If this were the case, there would be no need for the many warnings throughout the Bible that speak of our indispensable need to strive in faith (faith is also a spiritual gift, a manifestation of God’s grace) in the earnest pursuit of obtaining full sanctification in Christ. Are all of these apostolic admonitions to spiritually improve by growing in the grace and knowledge of God nothing more than rhetorical hot air that will ultimately have no real consequences if the listeners to the warnings fail to heed them?

We’re not addressing the fullness of God’s grace. The focus is on whether Christ’s grace is sufficient from the outset, or if it depends on meeting the conditions described in Moroni 10:32.

Edited February 17 by GoCeltics

[GoCeltics]

On 2/14/2026 at 11:31 PM, InCognitus said:

Obviously, Christ’s grace is sufficient for anything and everything in however he wants to apply it, now or anytime.

But the key to the question is, how and when does he apply it?

Yes. But before that, you must determine if Christ’s grace is sufficient before anything you do.

As I mentioned to teddyaware, grace is relational. As believers grow in knowing Christ, they experience grace more deeply. The command to grow in grace is really a call to grow in intimacy with Christ, trust in His sufficiency, and conformity to His character.

Christ’s grace is always sufficient — but not always used.
 

On 2/14/2026 at 11:31 PM, InCognitus said:

That depends on his purposes, does it not?  Ask yourself, why does anyone need to believe anything at all to be “saved”?  Isn’t Christ’s grace sufficient without belief?  Isn’t his grace sufficient without faith?   I would say it is sufficient.  But then why does Christ require our belief or faith to save us?

Yes, His grace is truly sufficient. We don’t have to follow all the conditions laid out in Moroni 10:32.

Regarding salvation by faith, it is taught to us as the way we are saved.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith ... not a result of works” and “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” to name a few.
 

On 2/14/2026 at 11:31 PM, InCognitus said:

Why does God make us go through this life at all?  Why does he not just save us right now without us going through this whole process because his grace is sufficient?  It is because God has a greater purpose for us.

Ultimately, His plans serve a higher purpose beyond our understanding. But we don’t have to fulfill a long list of requirements before Christ’s grace becomes sufficient for us.
 

On 2/14/2026 at 11:31 PM, InCognitus said:

In the context of Moroni 10:32 (and in Titus 2:11–14, 1 John 3:3, 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Peter 1:13-17, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-7 and Hebrews 12:14-15), God wants us to be “perfecting holiness”.  He wants us to become something new; he wants us to be sanctified through his blood (partaking of his grace in the process), to become holy.

However, Moroni 10:32 lists multiple conditions that must be fulfilled before Christ’s grace is considered sufficient for us.
 

On 2/14/2026 at 11:31 PM, InCognitus said:

 Why doesn’t he just zap us and say, “poof, you are perfect and holy”?  The reason is that we wouldn’t learn anything by that process.  Jesus “gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works” (Titus 2:11-14).  Purifying unto himself a peculiar people is the process of purging out of them the impurities.  Therefore, “let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (2 Corinthians 7:1). 

It’s a process.

The good news is that Christ’s grace is already sufficient for us, even before we attain perfection or holiness. We don’t need to meet every condition listed in Moroni 10:32 for Christ’s grace to be sufficient.

[InCognitus]

On 2/17/2026 at 8:44 AM, GoCeltics said:

On 2/14/2026 at 9:31 PM, InCognitus said:

Obviously, Christ’s grace is sufficient for anything and everything in however he wants to apply it, now or anytime.

But the key to the question is, how and when does he apply it?

Yes. But before that, you must determine if Christ’s grace is sufficient before anything you do.

As I mentioned to teddyaware, grace is relational. As believers grow in knowing Christ, they experience grace more deeply. The command to grow in grace is really a call to grow in intimacy with Christ, trust in His sufficiency, and conformity to His character.

Christ’s grace is always sufficient — but not always used.

You are just quibbling over semantics.  Remember, the question is regarding how and when Christ applies his grace to a given situation.   Earlier you brought up various situations where grace could be applied: future resurrection, inheritance, and salvation, but you left out sanctification and perfection.  I also pointed out that there is salvation from death (through the resurrection), salvation from sin and the consequences of sin (through the atonement of Jesus Christ as a past event), salvation from the wrath of God or punishment, and salvation to eternal life (which is something that is “hoped for” and conditional).

But in this context, we are talking about sanctification and perfection and when Christ applies his grace for us to be perfected and sanctified, and it’s not a discussion about whether God is powerful enough to do anything he pleases.  The decision for Christ to apply his grace to us is his choice, not ours. 

Remember Hebrews 12:14-15?  "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled".

Why would any man fail the grace of God in this application of his grace if, as you are arguing, his grace applies sufficiently to all situations without us doing anything at all?

On 2/17/2026 at 8:44 AM, GoCeltics said:

On 2/14/2026 at 9:31 PM, InCognitus said:

That depends on his purposes, does it not?  Ask yourself, why does anyone need to believe anything at all to be “saved”?  Isn’t Christ’s grace sufficient without belief?  Isn’t his grace sufficient without faith?   I would say it is sufficient.  But then why does Christ require our belief or faith to save us?

Yes, His grace is truly sufficient. We don’t have to follow all the conditions laid out in Moroni 10:32.

But do we have to follow “peace with all men, and holiness.. looking diligently” or we may fail the grace of God?   (Hebrews 12:14-15).  Why isn’t his grace “sufficient” (using your argument) in this verse?

On 2/17/2026 at 8:44 AM, GoCeltics said:

Regarding salvation by faith, it is taught to us as the way we are saved.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith ... not a result of works”

But now you are changing the topic to a different application of grace in relation to salvation. 

And remember, to be saved “through faith” still requires faith. Isn’t Christ’s grace sufficient to save us without our faith or belief?

On 2/17/2026 at 8:44 AM, GoCeltics said:

and “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” to name a few.

Reread my post in this thread on 01/22/2026.  I posted many references in Paul’s epistles where he talked about eternal life, and in every instance he did so in the context of needing to do good works to receive eternal life and he taught that eternal life is something received in the future.  See Romans 2:1-11, Romans 6:9-23, Galatians 6:7–10,  1 Timothy 6:11-12, 1 Timothy 6:17–19, Titus 1:1–2, and Titus 3:4–8.   And this is often the same theme that is found in the teachings of Jesus, such as in Matthew 19:28-29, and the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46, and also in John 17:3 (because to “know” God and Jesus Christ is to keep his commandments – 1 John 2:3-6).

On 2/17/2026 at 8:44 AM, GoCeltics said:

On 2/14/2026 at 9:31 PM, InCognitus said:

Why does God make us go through this life at all?  Why does he not just save us right now without us going through this whole process because his grace is sufficient?  It is because God has a greater purpose for us.

Ultimately, His plans serve a higher purpose beyond our understanding. But we don’t have to fulfill a long list of requirements before Christ’s grace becomes sufficient for us.

Again, you are throwing other applications of Christ’s grace into the same box, but you are purposely leaving out sanctification and perfection (which is what the end of Moroni 10 is about).  If we are to “hope to the end for the grace that is TO BE brought unto at the revelation of Jesus Christ” as the Bible teaches,  then it is not sufficient in our application of this context NOW.

Earlier you said, “Hope, then, is trusting that God will finish what His grace has started, and the warnings are there because perseverance in faith matters”.  If you need to “hope” that God will “finish what His grace has started” then it’s not sufficient for your application now.  You must “hope” it will be in the end.

On 2/17/2026 at 8:44 AM, GoCeltics said:

On 2/14/2026 at 9:31 PM, InCognitus said:

In the context of Moroni 10:32 (and in Titus 2:11–14, 1 John 3:3, 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Peter 1:13-17, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-7 and Hebrews 12:14-15), God wants us to be “perfecting holiness”.  He wants us to become something new; he wants us to be sanctified through his blood (partaking of his grace in the process), to become holy.

However, Moroni 10:32 lists multiple conditions that must be fulfilled before Christ’s grace is considered sufficient for us.

Yes, just like Titus 2:11–14, 1 John 3:3, 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Peter 1:13-17, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-7 and Hebrews 12:14-15.

With respect to the Bible’s command to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts (Titus 2:11–14), purify oneself (1 John 3:3), cleanse oneself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit and perfecting holiness (2 Corinthians 7:1), and basically being obedient (1 Peter 1:13-17) and keeping the commandments that Jesus gave (1 Thessalonians 4:1-7), what would be the point of God having us go through those exercises if he applied his grace to perfect us before we even started the process?

On 2/17/2026 at 8:44 AM, GoCeltics said:

On 2/14/2026 at 9:31 PM, InCognitus said:

 Why doesn’t he just zap us and say, “poof, you are perfect and holy”?  The reason is that we wouldn’t learn anything by that process.  Jesus “gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works” (Titus 2:11-14).  Purifying unto himself a peculiar people is the process of purging out of them the impurities.  Therefore, “let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (2 Corinthians 7:1). 

It’s a process.

Then why do you contradict yourself?  If God puts us through that process and says we must look “diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God”, then you are not being honest with what the scriptures are telling you.  God’s grace is applied only after some conditions are met, as the Bible clearly teaches for sanctification and perfecting holiness.

[teddyaware]

33 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

You are just quibbling over semantics.  Remember, the question is regarding how and when Christ applies his grace to a given situation.   Earlier you brought up various situations where grace could be applied: future resurrection, inheritance, and salvation, but you left out sanctification and perfection.  I also pointed out that there is salvation from death (through the resurrection), salvation from sin and the consequences of sin (through the atonement of Jesus Christ as a past event), salvation from the wrath of God or punishment, and salvation to eternal life (which is something that is “hoped for” and conditional).

But in this context, we are talking about sanctification and perfection and when Christ applies his grace for us to be perfected and sanctified, and it’s not a discussion about whether God is powerful enough to do anything he pleases.  The decision for Christ to apply his grace to us is his choice, not ours. 

Remember Hebrews 12:14-15?  "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled".

Why would any man fail the grace of God in this application of his grace if, as you are arguing, his grace applies sufficiently to all situations without us doing anything at all?

But do we have to follow “peace with all men, and holiness.. looking diligently” or we may fail the grace of God?   (Hebrews 12:14-15).  Why isn’t his grace “sufficient” (using your argument) in this verse?

But now you are changing the topic to a different application of grace in relation to salvation. 

And remember, to be saved “through faith” still requires faith. Isn’t Christ’s grace sufficient to save us without our faith or belief?

Reread my post in this thread on 01/22/2026.  I posted many references in Paul’s epistles where he talked about eternal life, and in every instance he did so in the context of needing to do good works to receive eternal life and he taught that eternal life is something received in the future.  See Romans 2:1-11, Romans 6:9-23, Galatians 6:7–10,  1 Timothy 6:11-12, 1 Timothy 6:17–19, Titus 1:1–2, and Titus 3:4–8.   And this is often the same theme that is found in the teachings of Jesus, such as in Matthew 19:28-29, and the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46, and also in John 17:3 (because to “know” God and Jesus Christ is to keep his commandments – 1 John 2:3-6).

Again, you are throwing other applications of Christ’s grace into the same box, but you are purposely leaving out sanctification and perfection (which is what the end of Moroni 10 is about).  If we are to “hope to the end for the grace that is TO BE brought unto at the revelation of Jesus Christ” as the Bible teaches,  then it is not sufficient in our application of this context NOW.

Earlier you said, “Hope, then, is trusting that God will finish what His grace has started, and the warnings are there because perseverance in faith matters”.  If you need to “hope” that God will “finish what His grace has started” then it’s not sufficient for your application now.  You must “hope” it will be in the end.

Yes, just like Titus 2:11–14, 1 John 3:3, 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Peter 1:13-17, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-7 and Hebrews 12:14-15.

With respect to the Bible’s command to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts (Titus 2:11–14), purify oneself (1 John 3:3), cleanse oneself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit and perfecting holiness (2 Corinthians 7:1), and basically being obedient (1 Peter 1:13-17) and keeping the commandments that Jesus gave (1 Thessalonians 4:1-7), what would be the point of God having us go through those exercises if he applied his grace to perfect us before we even started the process?

Then why do you contradict yourself?  If God puts us through that process and says we must look “diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God”, then you are not being honest with what the scriptures are telling you.  God’s grace is applied only after some conditions are met, as the Bible clearly teaches for sanctification and perfecting holiness.

BULLSEYE!! 

[GoCeltics]

14 hours ago, InCognitus said:

If God puts us through that process and says we must look “diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God”, then you are not being honest with what the scriptures are telling you. God’s grace is applied only after some conditions are met, as the Bible clearly teaches for sanctification and perfecting holiness.

Yes. We can fail of His grace. But the sufficiency of God's grace does not depend on what we do. 
His grace is already sufficient before sanctification and perfecting holiness.

 

14 hours ago, InCognitus said:

With respect to the Bible’s command to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts (Titus 2:11–14), purify oneself (1 John 3:3), cleanse oneself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit and perfecting holiness (2 Corinthians 7:1), and basically being obedient (1 Peter 1:13-17) and keeping the commandments that Jesus gave (1 Thessalonians 4:1-7), what would be the point of God having us go through those exercises if he applied his grace to perfect us before we even started the process?

There's a matter of when grace is available, applied, and when it is sufficient.

His grace is always available, always sufficient, before anything we must do.  How and when it is
applied is a process.
 

14 hours ago, InCognitus said:

And remember, to be saved “through faith” still requires faith. Isn’t Christ’s grace sufficient to save us without our faith or belief?

Yes. But the sufficiency of Christ's grace is not diminished or enhanced by our level of faith.

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

15 hours ago, InCognitus said:

If God puts us through that process and says we must look “diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God”, then you are not being honest with what the scriptures are telling you. God’s grace is applied only after some conditions are met, as the Bible clearly teaches for sanctification and perfecting holiness.

Yes. We can fail of His grace. But the sufficiency of God's grace does not depend on what we do. 
His grace is already sufficient before sanctification and perfecting holiness.

If we can fail of His grace, then God's grace is insufficient for us in that application and it DOES depend on what we do.  Even though God is fully sufficient in all things, he obviously doesn't apply it sufficiently to us if we can "fail the grace of God".

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

There's a matter of when grace is available, applied, and when it is sufficient.

His grace is always available, always sufficient, before anything we must do.  How and when it is
applied is a process.

You are just arguing over semantics again.  When grace is applied is when it is sufficient for that application, and it is God that chooses when to apply it and when it is sufficient for any given application.

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

15 hours ago, InCognitus said:

And remember, to be saved “through faith” still requires faith. Isn’t Christ’s grace sufficient to save us without our faith or belief?

Yes. But the sufficiency of Christ's grace is not diminished or enhanced by our level of faith.

But faith is still required for grace to be sufficient in application to our salvation.  If we can "fail the grace of God" then something we have done really does eliminate the application of grace in our situation, and makes it insufficient to make up for what we have done in that situation.

But the process of sanctification and "perfecting holiness" involves the application of Christ's grace along the way as long as we are participating with him in the process, since his grace sustains us and is applied when we make mistakes and repent of our sins and receive forgiveness, and strive to "cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God".  And ultimately, if we pursue that course to the end his grace is sufficient for our sanctification, to make us holy and receive perfection in him.  It makes no sense for God to declare his grace sufficient for that purpose at the beginning, since there are those who will decide not to pursue that course toward receiving the fulness of God's blessings and promises (and "fail the grace of God").

[teddyaware]

On 2/23/2026 at 11:24 AM, GoCeltics said:

Yes. We can fail of His grace. But the sufficiency of God's grace does not depend on what we do. 
His grace is already sufficient before sanctification and perfecting holiness.

 

There's a matter of when grace is available, applied, and when it is sufficient.

His grace is always available, always sufficient, before anything we must do.  How and when it is
applied is a process.
 

Yes. But the sufficiency of Christ's grace is not diminished or enhanced by our level of faith.

In his infinite wisdom and mercy, God makes the fulness of his saving grace freely available to all believers who desire to obtain it, but the reason why so few believers actually succeed in immediately laying hold on the fulness of God’s grace is due to the fact that mighty faith in Christ is an indispensable prerequisite needed in order to obtain the fulness of his grace. We are saved by grace through faith, and it’s simply a fact of life that not all believers instantly possess a sufficient measure of faith to enable them to immediately lay hold on and internalize the full measure of divine grace due to the fact that they haven’t sufficiently applied themselves in striving to grow in the grace and knowledge of God to make it happen..

It’s only those who overcome this fallen world through faith who are granted the right to be crowned kings in heaven, with the right to rule and reign with a rod of iron while seated on the very throne of God’s own power and authority. Now the divinely decreed process of sanctification in Christ doesn’t mean that those who are as yet lacking in mighty faith aren’t presently enjoying the great blessing of retaining a remission of their sins, but it does need to be understood that ever increasing endowments of God’s grace are needed if men are going to become fully sanctified and spiritually transformed by Christ in all holiness.

God’s grace is imparted in wisdom, it’s not just dispensed willy nilly without it being perfectly understood that the recipients of greater measures of God’s grace need to be in a proper state of preparation and receptivity in order to be able to receive and internalize increasing outpourings of God’s grace until they obtain unto “the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.” I reiterate, just because the fulness of God’s grace is freely offered to all it doesn’t mean that most believers presently possess the faith, faithfulness and readiness to be able to obtain and wisely utilize great measures of gracious empowerment that extend far beyond their present capacity to properly receive and process them.

Finally, I’m happy to report that the following words of admonition from the Apostle Paul could have just as easily been written by Moroni. If the “born again” Paul had already received the fulness of God’s grace and blessings, why does he solemnly testify to his fellow laborers that he has not yet received the fulness of what God’s grace is able to offer him? 

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press on toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. 

17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (Philippians 3)

Edited February 24 by teddyaware

[GoCeltics]

On 2/23/2026 at 1:21 PM, InCognitus said:

If we can fail of His grace, then God's grace is insufficient for us in that application and it DOES depend on what we do.  Even though God is fully sufficient in all things, he obviously doesn't apply it sufficiently to us if we can "fail the grace of God".

Not necessarily. It simply indicates that His grace was sufficient at all times but people did not persevere until the end.

If God’s grace is only sufficient for those who are exalted, then it was not sufficient for all the others who did not achieve that level.
 

On 2/23/2026 at 1:21 PM, InCognitus said:

But faith is still required for grace to be sufficient in application to our salvation.  If we can "fail the grace of God" then something we have done really does eliminate the application of grace in our situation, and makes it insufficient to make up for what we have done in that situation.

Addressed above.
 

On 2/23/2026 at 1:21 PM, InCognitus said:

But the process of sanctification and "perfecting holiness" involves the application of Christ's grace along the way as long as we are participating with him in the process

It’s apparent you think His grace is insufficient prior to the commencement of the process.

It’s similar to a homeowner who has contracted painters to paint his house. He didn’t purchase enough paint to finish the entire job, so he didn't provide each painter with an adequate amount until they were nearly out. He then returns to the store and buys more paint. Then he refills their containers so they could keep working on the project.

Edited February 26 by GoCeltics

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

Not necessarily. It simply indicates that His grace was sufficient at all times but people did not persevere until the end.

If God’s grace is only sufficient for those who are exalted, then it was not sufficient for all the others who did not achieve that level.
 

Addressed above.
 

It’s apparent you think His grace is insufficient prior to the commencement of the process.

It’s similar to a homeowner who has contracted painters to paint his house. He didn’t purchase enough paint to finish the entire job, so he didn't provide each painter with an adequate amount until they were nearly out. He then returns to the store and buys more paint. Then he refills their containers so they could keep working on the project.

Of course his grace is always fully sufficient and freely offered!. The problem isn’t on God’s end but on man’s. And what is the problem that hinders men from laying hold on God’s freely offered and fully sufficient grace? It’s that even converted believers have a perennial problem with frustrating the grace of God, and they will do it even as God is beckoning to them and freely offering them the fulness of his grace.

If a man has been invited to a sumptuous feast, is it the fault of the host or the invitee if the invitee refuses to fill his plate with delicacies and enjoy a delicious, nourishing meal? This gospel principle is so simple and easy to comprehend that even young children can understand it. It’s not God’s fault if a lack of faith causes a man to hesitate or even refuse to partake of his freely offered infinite and eternal grace.

Edited February 26 by teddyaware