Being an example of the believers in conversation

[bluebell]

1 Timothy 4:12 says in part--

12 ....be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation....

What are your thoughts on different ways to do this and how to go about it, regardless of the topic?  Is this a commandment or just advice?  I immediately thought of being charitable and kind in our speech to others and about others, but is that all it is?

[Kenngo1969]

Nope!  You may well be aware of this already, and perhaps everyone else is, too, but the word "conversation" as the Apostle Paul uses it here is broader than simply verbal exchanges between parties.  (He already mentions "speech," so if that's all he meant by "conversation," it would be redundant):

https://biblehub.com/topical/c/conversation.htm

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2007/04/the-tongue-of-angels?lang=eng

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Nope!  You may well be aware of this already, and perhaps everyone else is, too, but the word "conversation" as the Apostle Paul uses it here is broader than simply verbal exchanges between parties.  (He already mentions "speech," so if that's all he meant by "conversation," it would be redundant):

https://biblehub.com/topical/c/conversation.htm

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2007/04/the-tongue-of-angels?lang=eng

I really like what Elder Holland says here:

"I love what Elder Orson F. Whitney once said: “The spirit of the gospel is optimistic; it trusts in God and looks on the bright side of things. The opposite or pessimistic spirit drags men down and away from God, looks on the dark side, murmurs, complains, and is slow to yield obedience.” We should honor the Savior’s declaration to “be of good cheer.” (Indeed, it seems to me we may be more guilty of breaking that commandment than almost any other!) Speak hopefully. Speak encouragingly, including about yourself. Try not to complain and moan incessantly. As someone once said, “Even in the golden age of civilization, someone undoubtedly grumbled that everything looked too yellow.”

I've never considered a pessimistic spirit as dragging us away from God.  

[Senator]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I really like what Elder Holland says here:

"I love what Elder Orson F. Whitney once said: “The spirit of the gospel is optimistic; it trusts in God and looks on the bright side of things. The opposite or pessimistic spirit drags men down and away from God, looks on the dark side, murmurs, complains, and is slow to yield obedience.” We should honor the Savior’s declaration to “be of good cheer.” (Indeed, it seems to me we may be more guilty of breaking that commandment than almost any other!) Speak hopefully. Speak encouragingly, including about yourself. Try not to complain and moan incessantly. As someone once said, “Even in the golden age of civilization, someone undoubtedly grumbled that everything looked too yellow.”

I've never considered a pessimistic spirit as dragging us away from God.  

I was going to say something.  But now I can't.  🤐😁

[The Nehor]

Worth noting that this is probably not Paul.

I don’t really like or trust the author of 1 Timothy. The guy spewed a lot of misogyny.

59 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I really like what Elder Holland says here:

"I love what Elder Orson F. Whitney once said: “The spirit of the gospel is optimistic; it trusts in God and looks on the bright side of things. The opposite or pessimistic spirit drags men down and away from God, looks on the dark side, murmurs, complains, and is slow to yield obedience.” We should honor the Savior’s declaration to “be of good cheer.” (Indeed, it seems to me we may be more guilty of breaking that commandment than almost any other!) Speak hopefully. Speak encouragingly, including about yourself. Try not to complain and moan incessantly. As someone once said, “Even in the golden age of civilization, someone undoubtedly grumbled that everything looked too yellow.”

I've never considered a pessimistic spirit as dragging us away from God.  

I’m envious of those who are able to be optimistic and expect the best and usually find that it doesn’t happen and then somehow continue to be optimistic. I want to call it self-deception but it is too sincere. No idea how they do it.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Worth noting that this is probably not Paul.

I don’t really like or trust the author of 1 Timothy. The guy spewed a lot of misogyny.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if it's not Paul.  Either way, the author has his faults for sure.  But I can't really see how this verse can go wrong.  In your opinion, is there any part of the teaching that isn't compatible with the gospel of Christ?

Quote

I’m envious of those who are able to be optimistic and expect the best and usually find that it doesn’t happen and then somehow continue to be optimistic. I want to call it self-deception but it is too sincere. No idea how they do it.

If it's sincere then they probably don't do it on their own.  I think for some people it is a gift of the spirit to be able to trust in God in everything, even bad outcomes.  I'm not sure how they do it either.

[Kenngo1969]

15 hours ago, Senator said:

I was going to say something.  But now I can't.  🤐😁

Feeling pessimistic, were you?    

(All in fun, Senator.  All in fun. )

[Kenngo1969]

Here's a quote from the address of which I posted the link earlier that I really like:

Quote

I have often thought that Nephi’s being bound with cords and beaten by rods must have been more tolerable to him than listening to Laman and Lemuel’s constant murmuring. Surely he must have said at least once, “Hit me one more time. I can still hear you.” Yes, life has its problems, and yes, there are negative things to face, but please accept one of Elder Holland’s maxims for living—no misfortune is so bad that whining about it won’t make it worse.

 

[Tony uk]

On 11/18/2025 at 3:50 PM, bluebell said:

1 Timothy 4:12 says in part--

12 ....be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation....

What are your thoughts on different ways to do this and how to go about it, regardless of the topic?  Is this a commandment or just advice?  I immediately thought of being charitable and kind in our speech to others and about others, but is that all it is?

I believe it to be a commandment, and advice. In my own thought process, one of the ways we can show our true nature, is through speech. Jesus, in his Earthly mission, spoke with people in a grouping or as individuals..I believe he lead the way in this matter. The way in which we speak we others, is one way in which we show Christian kindness towards others, and also about others.

[JVW]

On 11/18/2025 at 10:50 AM, bluebell said:

1 Timothy 4:12 says in part--

12 ....be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation....

What are your thoughts on different ways to do this and how to go about it, regardless of the topic?  Is this a commandment or just advice?  I immediately thought of being charitable and kind in our speech to others and about others, but is that all it is?

I think that what a believer should do is live with integrity, passion, and in accordance with what they truly believe. God is growing us all, and we all have wheat and tares growing together in our hearts. I can try to focus on the "wheat" in the way I interact with others, but if I view this verse as a strict commandment and try to be "extra" nice or gentle or sweet or whatever way I view Christlike conversation then I don't believe that I'd be an example of the believers.

I would rather talk with a dumb, loud, curses-like-a-sailor, d*ickish yet brutally honest kind of guy than an intelligent, well-worded, mask wearing snake. In the culture of the world that I live in, being nice is the highest virtue, and I believe that people make too much of an effort to come across as nice and therefore lie through their teeth and lose that authenticity. My response to that is to discard what they are saying. I think no matter what we do or what we try to hide our speech is colored by what we truly believe so I view this verse as calling people to repent and work on their personal relationship with Jesus moreso than a call to talk to others like Jesus would.

What comes across the most from those who are "an example of the believers" is a genuine love and care for the one they are speaking too, empathy, honesty, connection, gratitude, and humility. Those things can't be faked very well and I believe that God is the one who changes hearts for those who desire it.

Hopefully I'm making some sense.

ETA: I do think that biting one's tongue is an important conversation skill to learn and also not gossiping/being able to keep a secret/holding someone's confidence which I think the temple is very good at teaching people how to do.

Edited November 19, 2025 by JVW

[The Nehor]

On 11/19/2025 at 10:22 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

Here's a quote from the address of which I posted the link earlier that I really like:

 

It is a good sardonic thought but the pedant in me has to say that if they were using the cords like the ancients often did when binding people this definitely wasn’t true. This was torture. What you would do it soak the cords or rope in water first as it makes them expand and then you bind the person. As the cords dry (and they would get drier even in the midst of a storm compared to being soaked) they would tighten. This causes circulation to be very restricted. Nephi was lucky his hands and feet still worked. There were no guarantees. While you would lose some feeling the strain and nerve pain would likely become excruciating. A lot also depends on the position you are bound in. If the objective is to induce pain and/or stress the body there are lots of ways to create stress positions. It is possible someone enduring a rough version of this for three days could permanently lose feeling in their extremities or possibly temporarily. I know of a case of improper use of handcuffs that resulted in the loss of most sensation in one hand for six months due to a crushed nerve. Nephi also could have experienced temporary or permanent neuropathy.

Just to say this wasn’t an inconvenience. It was probably horrible.

Yes, I spent way too much time studying torture at some point.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is a good sardonic thought but the pedant in me has to say that if they were using the cords like the ancients often did when binding people this definitely wasn’t true. This was torture. What you would do it soak the cords or rope in water first as it makes them expand and then you bind the person. As the cords dry (and they would get drier even in the midst of a storm compared to being soaked) they would tighten. This causes circulation to be very restricted. Nephi was lucky his hands and feet still worked. There were no guarantees. While you would lose some feeling the strain and nerve pain would likely become excruciating. A lot also depends on the position you are bound in. If the objective is to induce pain and/or stress the body there are lots of ways to create stress positions. It is possible someone enduring a rough version of this for three days could permanently lose feeling in their extremities or possibly temporarily. I know of a case of improper use of handcuffs that resulted in the loss of most sensation in one hand for six months due to a crushed nerve. Nephi also could have experienced temporary or permanent neuropathy.

Just to say this wasn’t an inconvenience. It was probably horrible.

Yes, I spent way too much time studying torture at some point.

I don't think it was then-Elder-now-President Holland's intent to discount anything Nephi went through, and, certainly, it isn't mine.  Although perhaps the common thought in the Church of Jesus Christ is that Nephi was entirely too hard on himself when, in the "Psalm of Nephi" chapter of Second Nephi Chapter 4, he chides himself for the temptations he experienced because of what his older brothers did to him, if what you say is anything approaching the truth, actually, perhaps he was too easy on them.  (The only way we'll ever know for sure is if we're ever able to ask Nephi: Maybe we'll get that chance, and maybe we won't.  We'll simply have to wait and see.)  One of the fascinating aspects of the judgment, to me, is how, in a way I do not now (and perhaps cannot possibly) understand, the Lord will [I believe ... OMMV] judge our mortal lives against the standards of our respective times rather than against some arbitrary standard it would be impossible for [m]any of us to meet.

In any event, for whatever this is worth, I like the "turning point" in the Psalm, where Nephi turns from grieving over his sins to recounting how the Lord has blessed him:

Quote

 

19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.

20 My God hath been my support; he hath led me through mine afflictions in the wilderness; and he hath preserved me upon the waters of the great deep.

21 He hath filled me with his love, even unto the consuming of my flesh.

22 He hath confounded mine enemies, unto the causing of them to quake before me.

23 Behold, he hath heard my cry by day, and he hath given me knowledge by visions in the night-time.

24 And by day have I waxed bold in mighty prayer before him; yea, my voice have I sent up on high; and angels came down and ministered unto me.

25 And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains. And mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them.

26 O then, if I have seen so great things, if the Lord in his condescension unto the children of men hath visited men in so much mercy, why should my heart weep and my soul linger in the valley of sorrow, and my flesh waste away, and my strength slacken, because of mine afflictions?

27 And why should I yield to sin, because of my flesh? Yea, why should I give way to temptations, that the evil one have place in my heart to destroy my peace and afflict my soul? Why am I angry because of mine enemy?

28 Awake, my soul! No longer droop in sin. Rejoice, O my heart, and give place no more for the enemy of my soul.

29 Do not anger again because of mine enemies. Do not slacken my strength because of mine afflictions.

30 Rejoice, O my heart, and cry unto the Lord, and say: O Lord, I will praise thee forever; yea, my soul will rejoice in thee, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

 

Incidentally, with tongue thoroughly planted in cheek, once, one of my Seminary teachers wrote on an exam we would get extra credit if we sang a verse from the Psalm.  The tongue-in-cheek nature of the invitation notwithstanding, when I read it, in my best operatic, booming, bass-to-baritone voice, I stood up and sang verse 22.   (Good times!  But ... I can't remember if I got extra credit or not ...)

Edited November 21, 2025 by Kenngo1969