Moses 7:32 - knowledge in their day of creation

[marineland]

About this verse in Moses 7.

"The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship 
of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created 
them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency".

What knowledge is given to Enoch's brethren and when were they created?

Did spirits in a pre-mortal life have agency too?

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

About this verse in Moses 7.

"The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship 
of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created 
them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency".

What knowledge is given to Enoch's brethren and when were they created?

Did spirits in a pre-mortal life have agency too?

Reason it out. 😉

Of course they did. Do we not teach that a third part of our brothers and sisters rebelled against God, followed Satan, and were cast out of God's presence down to Earth?

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, marineland said:

About this verse in Moses 7.

"The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship 
of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created 
them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency".

What knowledge is given to Enoch's brethren and when were they created?

I take this to refer to the Pre-existence, not mortal life. I say this because their spirits were the workmanship of His hands. Their mortal bodies were the workmanship of their mortal parents. Even though one might argue that the original mortal workmanship (Adam and Eve) was the Lord, the immediate workmanship was not. The knowledge conferred upon them is what they were taught as pre-existent spirits. It is my feeling that we are not born tabula rasa, but that we do bring with us knowledge whose origin we do not know, or even recognize as brought knowledge. For one thing, we bring with us the Light of Christ, which enables us to recognize truth, however disguised by man's distortions.

In the Garden of Eden is where God gave man his agency -- if not, how could Eve have chosen to partake of the forbidden fruit, with Adam to follow her example?

4 hours ago, marineland said:

Did spirits in a pre-mortal life have agency too?

Of course. Otherwise, how would it be possible for them to rebel? 

Edited October 6, 2025 by Stargazer

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

say this because their spirits were the workmanship of His hands. Their mortal bodies were the workmanship of their mortal parents.

Not necessarily imo to other verses:

Quote

, O then, why not able to command the earth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it,

That which was created on the earth was also the workmanship of his hands.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/jacob/4?lang=eng

Quote

24 For all old things shall pass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fulness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea;

25 And not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost, for it is the workmanship of mine hand.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/29?lang=eng&id=p25#p25
 

Also in the multiple verses, God refers to breaking the commandment of loving thy neighbor given in the garden.  The time he is discussing is in mortality.  So when he speaks of creation, that could be mortality as well as he does not separate the two into different time periods, one has to assume it.

Quote

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;

34 And the fire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them.

35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.

The floods were sent in mortality…

Edited October 6, 2025 by Calm

[CV75]

18 hours ago, marineland said:

About this verse in Moses 7.

"The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship 
of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created 
them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency".

What knowledge is given to Enoch's brethren and when were they created?

Did spirits in a pre-mortal life have agency too?

The knowledge given is the conscience.

Yes, God gives His children the quality of agency suitable for each estate.

 

[teddyaware]

17 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Reason it out. 😉

Of course they did. Do we not teach that a third part of our brothers and sisters rebelled against God, followed Satan, and were cast out of God's presence down to Earth?

I think this struggle for non Latter-Day Saint Christians to come to grips with the absolute necessity for all intelligent beings needing to have moral agency grows out of the mistaken idea that God is able to create ex nihilo intelligent beings that are perfectly good. without them having to be tried and proved by adversity. Of course, this brings up the inevitable question that if God actually is able to create perfectly good intelligent beings without them having to be tried, tested and thereby be refined, why did he make such a monumental mess out of things by unnecessarily bringing Lucifer and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil into the garden of Eden? Why did he not leave well enough alone?

Meanwhile, the scriptures of the Latter-Day Saints testify that without all intelligent beings having the ability and inalienable right to choose between good and evil, it wouldn’t be possible for anything to exist! This can only mean the justice and mercy are immutable laws that cannot be ignored or overridden in any way, and without justice and mercy being the foundational laws of reality there would be no logical reason to even attempt to create anything. Without justice and mercy bearing sway and having the final say in all things, there is no reason to create anything. 

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

Edited October 7, 2025 by teddyaware

[Pyreaux]

20 hours ago, marineland said:

About this verse in Moses 7.

"The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship 
of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created 
them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency".

What knowledge is given to Enoch's brethren and when were they created?

Did spirits in a pre-mortal life have agency too?

The knowledge given to Enoch's brethren is to "all mankind" in the day they were "created" is understood to be the gospel knowledge and instruction they received as spirits in the presence of God during their premortal life. Being taught the Father's plan of salvation, the role of Jesus Christ as the Savior, and principles of righteousness. The ongoing choice the next verse (Moses 7:33) specifies; "that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father." Though everyone forgets what was taught, the "Light of Christ" everyone is born with will cause us to remember. The Lord is expressing sorrow in the passage is because they have strayed from this knowledge and are "without affection."

Light of Christ is the spiritual endowment or intelligence given to all spirits, allows them to discern between good and evil.

"In the day I created them" refers to the creation of their spirits in the premortal life as the spirit children of God the Father. The phrase "they are the workmanship of mine own hands" is understood as God being the Father of their spirits. This spirit creation is separate from the creation of Adam and Eve's physical bodies or the birth of mortal children. The LDS see Day One as a long creative day.

Agency was an essential part of God's plan for His children's progression from the very beginning. The concept of the "War in Heaven" stems from this agency. Lucifer (Satan) sought to destroy the agency of man, proposing a plan that would have forced obedience. When his plan was rejected and the Father's plan (championed by Jesus Christ, which preserved agency) was chosen, one-third of the hosts of heaven exercised their agency to follow Lucifer and were cast out.

Those who accepted the Father's plan, includes choosing to come to earth to gain a body and be tested were the ones permitted to be born into mortality.

[Benjamin McGuire]

The Book of Moses was produced as part of the Joseph Smith Translation project, and the Book of Moses specifically was completed no later than February of 1831. There is no doctrine of the pre-existence in this time frame in the LDS Church.

The Book of Moses is an expansion on the Genesis accounts. And I think that sometimes LDS struggle with the idea that even within modern scripture there is a chronology or a priority. No one expects that the Old Testament should contain a fullness of the gospel - there is this belief that the New Testament improves upon the Old Testament. The same is true with the revelations in the D&C. They are not all equally useful in establishing present day doctrine. So while we have a tendency to try and read our present theology back onto these scriptural texts, when we do this, we read the text in a way that none of its earliest readers did (or could have). Joseph Smith did not read Moses 7 as a reference to some pre-existence. The ideas in Moses 7 help drive early LDS towards that belief in a pre-existence, but it isn't until 1835 that we start to see any references to it at all. The knowledge that we read about in Moses 7:32 is a reference back to the "knowledge of good and evil," along with the gift of agency in the Garden of Eden.

It isn't until the formal introduction of a pre-existence that the notion of agency shifts back into that pre-existence and its war in heaven.

In other words, Moses 7 isn't a reflection of later LDS theology - it is a stepping stone to that later theology with its starting to recontextualize the Genesis creation narratives. 

[Pyreaux]

3 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

The Book of Moses was produced as part of the Joseph Smith Translation project, and the Book of Moses specifically was completed no later than February of 1831. There is no doctrine of the pre-existence in this time frame in the LDS Church.

The Book of Moses is an expansion on the Genesis accounts. And I think that sometimes LDS struggle with the idea that even within modern scripture there is a chronology or a priority. No one expects that the Old Testament should contain a fullness of the gospel - there is this belief that the New Testament improves upon the Old Testament. The same is true with the revelations in the D&C. They are not all equally useful in establishing present day doctrine. So while we have a tendency to try and read our present theology back onto these scriptural texts, when we do this, we read the text in a way that none of its earliest readers did (or could have). Joseph Smith did not read Moses 7 as a reference to some pre-existence. The ideas in Moses 7 help drive early LDS towards that belief in a pre-existence, but it isn't until 1835 that we start to see any references to it at all. The knowledge that we read about in Moses 7:32 is a reference back to the "knowledge of good and evil," along with the gift of agency in the Garden of Eden.

It isn't until the formal introduction of a pre-existence that the notion of agency shifts back into that pre-existence and its war in heaven.

In other words, Moses 7 isn't a reflection of later LDS theology - it is a stepping stone to that later theology with its starting to recontextualize the Genesis creation narratives. 

That explains why the theology seems different. So, my question is twofold:

Is to proceed to insert the later doctrine of pre-mortality into Moses 7 purely anachronistic?

Or is it fair to suggest the passage was intentionally worded to be ambiguous or contains layers, such that it could be read in retrospect as a reference to the War in Heaven/pre-mortal life, even if strictly it wasn't the meaning at the time?

When do we avoid sin of reading later ideas back into earlier texts, and when is it okay to place progressive revelation in a living scripture?

[Benjamin McGuire]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

Is to proceed to insert the later doctrine of pre-mortality into Moses 7 purely anachronistic?

I think that if we are trying "to insert" an idea into a text, we are usually doing something that creates anachronisms (to a lesser or greater degree). The problem isn't in reading a text like Moses 7, and reading pre-mortality into it (this is, in fact, what early Mormonism eventually does). What is anachronistic is the suggestion that in what we read, a pre-mortality was meant all along.

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

Or is it fair to suggest the passage was intentionally worded to be ambiguous or contains layers, such that it could be read in retrospect as a reference to the War in Heaven/pre-mortal life, even if strictly it wasn't the meaning at the time?

This isn't a fair suggestion. In fact, all language, generally speaking, is ambiguous and may contain layers. Authors sometime make use of this deliberately. The problem that you have with this suggestion is the implication. Normally when authors use ambiguity to create multiple meanings, they do so in a way that their intended audience can make sense of it and understand the text better through the ambiguity. But what you are suggesting here is that the original audience could not be the intended audience because they weren't competent enough readers to either understand the ambiguity or to understand how an author could be introducing a range of meanings through that ambiguity.

There are a few additional assumptions in this that I simply reject. One of the more important of these is that this situation requires that the author of a text be God (in some sense) because only God can envision the future audience that the text is actually written for. And to be clear, every audience who read such a text generally believes that they are uniquely competent to read the text and so they are the audience that God intended. We can see that this removes any sense of human authorship from the text (of necessity) and requires that the human author (to the extent that we can call the animator of the text an author) be an incompetent reader themselves.

From a theological perspective, modern LDS believe that personal revelation is a far more important principle than the idea of an inerrant text. And this would point to the idea that since we believe revelation is on ongoing and open process (and that this Book of Moses was a part of that expansion of revelation) that there isn't a need to encode information in such a way on the part of God. So, unlike the position of sola scriptura, LDS views don't require us to continuously reinterpret the text to keep it valid in contemporary circumstances or to match contemporary beliefs.

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

When do we avoid sin of reading later ideas back into earlier texts, and when is it okay to place progressive revelation in a living scripture?

It is never a problem (at least in LDS theology) to constantly reinterpret our texts to match our current contexts (likening the scriptures). It is only a problem if we try to assert that the meaning that we come to must be what was originally intended. There is a lot of philosophical back discussion about all of this - and while I wouldn't mind having that discussion, this thread probably isn't the best place for it.

[Stargazer]

22 hours ago, Calm said:

Not necessarily imo to other verses:

That which was created on the earth was also the workmanship of his hands.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/jacob/4?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/29?lang=eng&id=p25#p25
 

Also in the multiple verses, God refers to breaking the commandment of loving thy neighbor given in the garden.  The time he is discussing is in mortality.  So when he speaks of creation, that could be mortality as well as he does not separate the two into different time periods, one has to assume it.

The floods were sent in mortality…

Yes, and I've noticed that scripture does tend to mean two or three things at one time. The entire universe is the workmanship of His hands, so...

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I've noticed that scripture does tend to mean two or three things at one time

Or we give it multiple meanings….which is fun, imo, not criticizing, just don’t think we can claim one reading is correct and others not, though trying to identify the original meaning meant by the author, the one God first inspires to convey his messages is typically the most interesting to me.

Edited October 7, 2025 by Calm

[Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Or we give it multiple meanings….which is fun, imo, not criticizing, just don’t think we can claim one reading is correct and others not, though trying to identify the original meaning meant by the author, the one God first inspires to convey his messages is typically the most interesting to me.

LOL! Yes, and it rather reminds me of 1 Peter 1:20 -> "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

[teddyaware]

On 10/6/2025 at 2:43 PM, marineland said:

About this verse in Moses 7.

"The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship 
of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created 
them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency".

What knowledge is given to Enoch's brethren and when were they created?

Did spirits in a pre-mortal life have agency too?

All the spirit sons and daughters of God who obtain tabernacles of flesh and blood when they are born on this earth are mercifully given the light of Christ — a portion of God’s own spiritual intelligence — that they might intuitively comprehend the difference between good and evil. The light of Christ is the illuminating spiritual light of conscience that gives spiritual understanding and insight to every man and woman who comes into the world.

[teddyaware]

12 hours ago, teddyaware said:

All the spirit sons and daughters of God who obtain tabernacles of flesh and blood when they are born on this earth are mercifully given the light of Christ — a portion of God’s own spiritual intelligence — that they might intuitively comprehend the difference between good and evil. The light of Christ is the illuminating spiritual light of conscience that gives spiritual understanding and insight to every man and woman who comes into the world. Very simple.

 

[teddyaware]

On 10/6/2025 at 7:57 PM, Calm said:

Not necessarily imo to other verses:

That which was created on the earth was also the workmanship of his hands.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/jacob/4?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/29?lang=eng&id=p25#p25
 

Also in the multiple verses, God refers to breaking the commandment of loving thy neighbor given in the garden.  The time he is discussing is in mortality.  So when he speaks of creation, that could be mortality as well as he does not separate the two into different time periods, one has to assume it.

The floods were sent in mortality…

The context of the verse in question indicates that the Lord is referring to the creation of men on earth. The knowledge he says he gave them from birth is the light of Christ, “the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

[marineland]

14 hours ago, teddyaware said:

All the spirit sons and daughters of God who obtain tabernacles of flesh and blood when they are born on this earth are mercifully given the light of Christ — a portion of God’s own spiritual intelligence — that they might intuitively comprehend the difference between good and evil.

What about the spirits born to heavenly parents in the premortal life?

What good and evil could they comprehend there?

Edited October 8, 2025 by marineland

[marineland]

23 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Light of Christ is the spiritual endowment or intelligence given to all spirits, allows them to discern between good and evil.

"In the day I created them" refers to the creation of their spirits in the premortal life as the spirit children of God the Father. The phrase "they are the workmanship of mine own hands" is understood as God being the Father of their spirits. This spirit creation is separate from the creation of Adam and Eve's physical bodies or the birth of mortal children. The LDS see Day One as a long creative day.

Agency was an essential part of God's plan for His children's progression from the very beginning. The concept of the "War in Heaven" stems from this agency.

What other evil existed in that premortal life?

[marineland]

On 10/6/2025 at 7:36 PM, Stargazer said:

I take this to refer to the Pre-existence, not mortal life. I say this because their spirits were the workmanship of His hands. Their mortal bodies were the workmanship of their mortal parents.

What about their spirit bodies?  Weren't they the workmanship of their immortal
parents?

[marineland]

On 10/6/2025 at 5:34 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Reason it out. 😉

Of course they did. Do we not teach that a third part of our brothers and sisters rebelled against God, followed Satan, and were cast out of God's presence down to Earth?

Was that their only exercise of agency?

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

Was that their only exercise of agency?

The scriptures of the Latter-Day Saints testify that no intelligent being can exist, no mater how simple and basic it might be, unless it has agency. This means that forever into the past and forever into the future each individual intelligence always has had and always will have agency. God is the author of freedom, and as such he has no reason nor interest in creating non-intelligent automations that have no reason to exist other than to merely take up space. Also, the  notion that God is some sort of passionless cosmic supercomputer is erroneous.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

Edited October 8, 2025 by teddyaware

[Pyreaux]

On 10/8/2025 at 10:10 AM, marineland said:

What other evil existed in that premortal life?

Each other or even yourself. I'm fairly certain temptation is not the sole providence of your devils, and it is not assumed the devil has a devil.

Joseph Smith from January 19, 1841, as recorded in the McIntire Minute Book, infers a spirit is an inferior state of being, with limitations inherent in spirit beings, how in the pre-mortal state we were "subject to oppression" from the powers of darkness (Ehat & Cook, Words, McIntire Minute Book: 19 January 1841 (Tuesday), p. 62.) so even in the premortal world, opposition and temptation existed. The power to resist and choose remained, but in order for us to ultimately overcome evil, it was necessary for us to acquire a physical body which could later be resurrected into an immortal one. 

While I don't have a full text of that specific minute immediately available, but he does say in other places how spirits lack the power and protection of a physical body. In 1843: "All beings who have bodies have more power than those who have not. The devil has no body, and herein is his great limitation." (Discourse, 5 January 1841, as Reported by William Clayton). Latter-day Saints believing in the necessity of a physical body and the purpose of mortality. Having a body gives individuals a greater capacity to resist evil and exercise their agency.

Brigham Young taught, "The spirit that the Lord puts into a tabernacle of flesh, is under the dictation of the Lord Almighty; but the spirit and body are united in order that the spirit may have a tabernacle, and be exalted; and the spirit is influenced by the body, and the body by the spirit." He noted that the Devil "does not hold any power over man, only so far as the body overcomes the spirit that is in a man, through yielding to the spirit of evil." This implies that the body acts as a defense for the spirit. However, if the spirit yields to the body's fallen nature ("of the earth"), then the Devil can gain influence over both.

In LDS theology, temptation and evil come from not just the temptations of physical lusts of the natural body, but your own weaknesses and the devil's power of persuasion, convincing others to reject the Father and his plan. An evil spirit's power to oppress a spirit without a body is largely the power to whisper doubt and prideful alternatives.

The oppression an evil spirit inflicts can be mental anguish, fear, or a sense of hopelessness, all of which are spiritual rather than physical sensations. From the spirit world, an evil spirit can teach a man that he "must not pray" (2 Nephi 32:8) or invite and entice him to do evil (Moroni 7:12). These are attacks on the spirit's spiritual core.

Edited October 9, 2025 by Pyreaux

[marineland]

On 10/8/2025 at 1:43 PM, teddyaware said:

The scriptures of the Latter-Day Saints testify that no intelligent being can exist, no mater how simple and basic it might be, unless it has agency. This means that forever into the past and forever into the future each individual intelligence always has had and always will have agency. God is the author of freedom, and as such he has no reason nor interest in creating non-intelligent automations that have no reason to exist other than to merely take up space. Also, the  notion that God is some sort of passionless cosmic supercomputer is erroneous.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

Does evil exist long before the devil is born?

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 minute ago, marineland said:

Does evil exist long before the devil is born?

Do you believe that evil is a created thing?

[marineland]

On 10/8/2025 at 5:26 PM, Pyreaux said:

Having a body gives individuals a greater capacity to resist evil and exercise their agency.

Brigham Young taught, "The spirit that the Lord puts into a tabernacle of flesh, is under the dictation of the Lord Almighty; but the spirit and body are united in order that the spirit may have a tabernacle, and be exalted; and the spirit is influenced by the body, and the body by the spirit." He noted that the Devil "does not hold any power over man, only so far as the body overcomes the spirit that is in a man, through yielding to the spirit of evil." This implies that the body acts as a defense for the spirit. However, if the spirit yields to the body's fallen nature ("of the earth"), then the Devil can gain influence over both.

In LDS theology, temptation and evil come from not just the temptations of physical lusts of the natural body, but your own weaknesses and the devil's power of persuasion, convincing others to reject the Father and his plan. An evil spirit's power to oppress a spirit without a body is largely the power to whisper doubt and prideful alternatives.

Do spirits have a tabernacle in a premortal life?

Did intelligences have agency before they were formed into spirit children?