Joseph Smith's leg surgery

[Nofear]

With D&C 84 coming up, Don Bradley argues why Joseph Smith refused alcohol for his leg surgery. I think his thesis is fundamentally correct and my appreciation for Joseph Smith was increased by listening to this.

Edit to add: there is much more that some may relate to (having compassion and grace for oneself, metaphysics of truth is good, etc.). The loss of his son was very formative for him. A deeply personal video this is.
 

 

Edited August 15, 2025 by Nofear

[Calm]

Got to ask…does it really change Everything?

It’s remarkable how often I hear this (primarily not in apologetics, but occasionally even here) and yet nothing really changes.

It’s 3 hours long…highlights, pleeeaaasssseee.

Edited August 15, 2025 by Calm

[Nofear]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Got to ask…does it really change Everything?

It’s remarkable how often I hear this (primarily not in apologetics, but occasionally even here) and yet nothing really changes.

It’s 3 hours long…highlights, pleeeaaasssseee.

Not everything. That's clickbaity. I can't summarize Bradley's emotion and how his son's death effects him. But it did give him some degree of empathy.

The idea is that alcohol consumption by the average American at that time would be considered a quite heavy drinker by today's standards. Joseph Smith Sr. did struggle with drink and at times Alvin had to take the family mantle. Nonetheless, Joseph, even from a young age (7) had a sincere relationship with his father and his choice to not drink alcohol for the pain control but only needed the comfort and strength of his father. This was in someways a rebuke of alcohol consumption of his father but not in a judgmental way. It was a relationship thing.


PS: I will typically "watch" such a video at 1.5 speed and skip forward by bits and pieces. Sometimes I have to go back because I hit a section of the video that is saying something that is interesting and I was in the middle of the context. But I skip a bunch too.

[Pyreaux]

I made it only part of the way, I was struggling to pick up the exact "why", my impression is Joseph is not having alcohol was for his dad's sake, evidence he was a good kid and nothing to do with the word or wisdom. I'm appreciating the small details, the bone drill and chisels, the 4 pieces of bone extracted, the screaming heard over long distances and his mom who can't stop barging in and seeing the table is covered in blood, Joseph is white as a corpse. I had to take a break, but I'm not done watching.

Edited August 16, 2025 by Pyreaux

[The Nehor]

Is the whole thing about it being a gentle rebuke of his dad based on anything Joseph said or is it intuited into the whole thing?

[OGHoosier]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Is the whole thing about it being a gentle rebuke of his dad based on anything Joseph said or is it intuited into the whole thing?

Mostly intuited. Joseph did specifically ask for his dad to hold him as an alternative to the liquor but other that I don't know of anything he said about it.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Nofear said:

: I will typically "watch" such a video at 1.5 speed and skip forward by bits and pieces. Sometimes I have to go back because I hit a section of the video that is saying something that is interesting and I was in the middle of the context. But I skip a bunch too.

I watch at 1.5 speed, but skipping is too much work

Thanks for the summary

Quote

This was in someways a rebuke of alcohol consumption of his father but not in a judgmental way. It was a relationship thing.

I vaguely, but strongly feel I have heard this theory before.

Edited August 16, 2025 by Calm

[OGHoosier]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I vaguely, but strongly feel I have heard this theory before.

Bradley discussed it as part of his 2023 FAIR Conference talk.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

Mostly intuited. Joseph did specifically ask for his dad to hold him as an alternative to the liquor but other that I don't know of anything he said about it.

Are you familiar with Dan Vogel’s theory? (Or at least the one he presented quite awhile back, perhaps he has a different one now). Do they by chance discuss and contrast his theory with Don’s?

Edited August 16, 2025 by Calm

[The Nehor]

Wasn’t the Dan Vogel theory more that it was a more direct rebuke of his father and kind of saying ‘I can do this surgery without alcohol so you should be able to go through your regular life without it’ kind of thing? Or am I misremembering?

I think Vogel is also the one who said Joseph’s mother’s story where she insisted that the doctors not amputate when they wanted to was likely a later reworking of the story in her mind since the doctor who performed the surgery was pretty rare at the time in regularly not suggesting amputations in this sort of case and probably wouldn’t have shown up for a (relatively) simple amputation.

Edited August 16, 2025 by The Nehor

[Calm]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Wasn’t the Dan Vogel theory more that it was a more direct rebuke of his father and kind of saying ‘I can do this surgery without alcohol so you should be able to go through your regular life without it’ kind of thing? Or am I misremembering?

I think Vogel is also the one who said Joseph’s mother’s story where she insisted that the doctors not amputate when they wanted to was likely a later reworking of the story in her mind since the doctor who performed the surgery was pretty rare at the time in regularly not suggesting amputations in this sort of case and probably wouldn’t have shown up for a (relatively) simple amputation.

I believe Vogel interpreted it as a rebuke, rejection.  I am curious if they are looking at the same evidence, but coming to dramatically different views.

Edited August 16, 2025 by Calm

[rpn]

I heard the take.   My own take is that even at 7 years old, Joseph Smith would have had experience with what alcohol does to people.   And maybe he didn't want that for himself.   He was even then called for a special purpose:  his Heavenly Parents would have been acutely aware of him in every moment (as they are with us all).

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, rpn said:

I heard the take.   My own take is that even at 7 years old, Joseph Smith would have had experience with what alcohol does to people.   And maybe he didn't want that for himself.   He was even then called for a special purpose:  his Heavenly Parents would have been acutely aware of him in every moment (as they are with us all).

I doubt this is the explanation. Joseph drank alcohol throughout his life.

[The Nehor]

If I had to guess I would go with Joseph was afraid they might encounter complications and decide to amputate his leg if he were unconscious and unable to stop them. It is possible his mom was very worried this might happen and it rubbed off on him as well.

Edited August 18, 2025 by The Nehor

[Pyreaux]

On 8/18/2025 at 12:45 AM, The Nehor said:

I doubt this is the explanation. Joseph drank alcohol throughout his life.

Yeah, wine at least, even the original 1833 wording of the Word of Wisdom (“strong drink is not for the belly”), “strong drink” meant distilled spirits (whiskey, brandy, rum, etc.), not wine. In fact, the revelation itself explicitly says:

“Inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good... only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him. And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.” (D&C 89:5–6)

Evidence of Joseph Drinking Wine

Liberty Jail (1839): He and his companions requested and drank wine in jail. Joseph himself recorded that the guards got drunk while the prisoners had “a little wine,” clearly differentiating between moderation and drunkenness.

Nauvoo period: Several contemporary accounts mention Joseph drinking wine on social occasions (e.g., at a wedding, or with close friends).

Evidence of Joseph Drinking Spirits?

Very slim to none. The accusations that he drank whiskey or hard liquor usually come from hostile later sources or secondhand reminiscences. There’s no solid contemporary record of Joseph consuming distilled liquor.

Joseph didn’t treat the Word of Wisdom as an absolute prohibition. Beer and wine were still common.

The Practical Difference

In early 19th-century America, water was often unsafe, so beer, cider, and wine were everyday beverages.

Distilled spirits, however, were strongly associated with drunkenness and the destructive alcohol culture of the frontier, which is why “strong drink” in the WoW meant whiskey, rum, brandy, etc., not all alcohol.

Brigham Young in the late 1800s/early 1900s under Joseph F. Smith and Heber J. Grant tightened the Word of Wisdom until it became the total abstinence standard we know today.

So the best-supported conclusion is:

Joseph position at 7 was consistent with his later conviction to avoid “strong drink” (spirits), even if he drank wine.

[The Nehor]

 

57 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Yeah, wine at least, even the original 1833 wording of the Word of Wisdom (“strong drink is not for the belly”), “strong drink” meant distilled spirits (whiskey, brandy, rum, etc.), not wine. In fact, the revelation itself explicitly says:

“Inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good... only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him. And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.” (D&C 89:5–6)

While Joseph did mostly drink wine and beer (and beer is actively approved as good to drink in the Word of Wisdom) this scripture still makes drinking wine “not good” so Joseph was still doing it wrong.

57 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Evidence of Joseph Drinking Wine

Liberty Jail (1839): He and his companions requested and drank wine in jail. Joseph himself recorded that the guards got drunk while the prisoners had “a little wine,” clearly differentiating between moderation and drunkenness.

Nauvoo period: Several contemporary accounts mention Joseph drinking wine on social occasions (e.g., at a wedding, or with close friends).

Evidence of Joseph Drinking Spirits?

Very slim to none. The accusations that he drank whiskey or hard liquor usually come from hostile later sources or secondhand reminiscences. There’s no solid contemporary record of Joseph consuming distilled liquor.

Joseph didn’t treat the Word of Wisdom as an absolute prohibition. Beer and wine were still common.

The Practical Difference

In early 19th-century America, water was often unsafe, so beer, cider, and wine were everyday beverages.

Distilled spirits, however, were strongly associated with drunkenness and the destructive alcohol culture of the frontier, which is why “strong drink” in the WoW meant whiskey, rum, brandy, etc., not all alcohol.

Brigham Young in the late 1800s/early 1900s under Joseph F. Smith and Heber J. Grant tightened the Word of Wisdom until it became the total abstinence standard we know today.

So the best-supported conclusion is:

Joseph position at 7 was consistent with his later conviction to avoid “strong drink” (spirits), even if he drank wine.

The bit about water being unsafe to drink throughout history is mostly a myth. It was true in some areas but most of those are cities with polluted water supplies. They drank cider, beer, and wine because it tasted good and made you feel good. I imagine a day of repetitive agricultural labor was probably easier to tolerate if you were mildly buzzed the whole time.

The Word of Wisdom is mostly pulled from the temperance movement’s standards complete with the paranoid fear that “evil and designing men” were adulterating or poisoning wine and other alcoholic beverages for nebulous reasons.

[Pyreaux]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

While Joseph did mostly drink wine and beer (and beer is actively approved as good to drink in the Word of Wisdom) this scripture still makes drinking wine “not good” so Joseph was still doing it wrong.

The bit about water being unsafe to drink throughout history is mostly a myth. It was true in some areas but most of those are cities with polluted water supplies. They drank cider, beer, and wine because it tasted good and made you feel good. I imagine a day of repetitive agricultural labor was probably easier to tolerate if you were mildly buzzed the whole time.

The Word of Wisdom is mostly pulled from the temperance movement’s standards complete with the paranoid fear that “evil and designing men” were adulterating or poisoning wine and other alcoholic beverages for nebulous reasons.

It’s true that in rural and wilderness settings, water was often perfectly fine to drink, especially from springs, wells, or streams. Yes, people did drink water regularly.

However, towns like Nauvoo, even Kirtland during the cholera outbreaks, water supplies could be contaminated with human or animal waste. The epidemics of cholera, dysentery, and typhoid were directly linked to bad water sources. Even in the frontier, clean-looking streams could still carry parasites or bacterial contamination, and people didn’t understand microbiology.

I don't know how many times my family members caught dysentery, cholera, and "camp" fever from the water on the Oregon Trail (j/k) but seriously, people often did get sick from water contaminated by upstream camps or livestock. Families certainly brought whiskey and cider partly because it was both safer and comforting.

But another factor was preservation: alcoholic drinks stored better and far longer than water, milk, or juice. If you wanted a drinkable liquid in late winter or after long storage, cider or beer was the safer choice than stagnant water.

“Evil and designing men” adulterating wine wasn’t paranoia. There are documented cases of adulterated or dangerous alcohol in the 1800s.

Merchants diluted expensive wines with lead acetate (“sugar of lead”), which sweetened it but caused poisoning. Cheap whiskey and rum were often “cut” with turpentine, sulfuric acid, or other additives to stretch the supply. So, as newspapers say.

So, when the Word of Wisdom mentions “evil and designing men,” it is very likely alluded to both Joseph’s present-day liquor merchants and a future trajectory (corporations, industrial food/drink systems). After the 1840s, many of the Word of Wisdom items listed were deliberately altered with additives or processing methods that made them more harmful, more addictive, or both.

20th century industrial alcohol production (esp. during Prohibition in the 1920s) sometimes used methanol, denaturants, or contaminated processes that killed thousands. In modern times, some low-quality spirits (esp. in black markets) are still being cut with methanol or other toxins.

Edited August 19, 2025 by Pyreaux