Calm

I don’t know about 1971, but iirc (I no longer have the book with the info in it), for a time after switching to mass produced garments, they allowed members to still make their own based off of the garments they already had, it looks like patterns were not provided by the Church according to the link marineland provided (thanks for that as my memory was wrong). It was stopped, again iirc, because some took liberties with not following the pattern sufficiently. This may have been reality, may have been perception (a few reported cases may have given the impression of widespread noncompliance). Can’t recall if the chapter commented on the reality or not.

https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

Why?

I had a cassette tape for one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Especially_for_Youth I was pretty sure it was going on at BYU when I first attended, which was the summer of 76. I was annoyed by the non students wandering around campus. https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/etd/4577/ John Bytheway’s master’s thesis on EFY. Has lists of teachers, classes, activities, etc.

We had youth conferences when I was a kid (70s, Northern California). Had different classes with popular speakers to attend. Went to some resort in the mountains in California. Church rented a bus to get there iirc, but maybe we carpooled. Took a couple of hours. It was three or four days. Lived in dorms. There was a dance. Only speaker I remember was Keith Merrill, film guy. Had just won an Academy Award.

The criteria our culture typically uses. Just like it can decide what is and isn’t porn, what is indecent exposure and what isn’t, sets an arbitrary standard for adulthood and access to alcohol, tobacco, voting, joining the army, etc (if we go by something more objective like brain development, adulthood might be later), driving at 16 instead of adulthood, etc.

You mentioned virtue signaling…which implies some believe that it’s more virtuous to serve unpaid than paid. I disagree with those who believe that. You think we have a professional clergy? Serious question. I would thought even if one sees the beginning as ambiguous, the ending was clear.

Has this been posted yet and analyzed yet? The search function says no and I haven’t read each post or all of the posts (I tend to skip over what appears to be repetition). https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/safety-in-restrooms-and-facilites/

Someone else refusing to accept appearance as a meaningful limiting principle does not mean a meaningful limiting principle has not been articulated, imo. I have a very strong concern about women who are forced to share spaces with those who appear to be biological males, whether they are one or not.

Barely out of high school to attend the funeral of a 23 year old cousin who had been shot earlier in the month. That family must be staggering under the shock of the losses. https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/salt-lake-county/one-person-shot-dead-in-riverton-store-police-are-investigating Rage is so destructive (I assume it’s rage that makes one believe a gun is the right response to an argument).

Hope it’s as beneficial for you as it has been for me. So much easier to understand why I am reacting in certain ways and have effective ways to deal with it. Friction with family members is almost absent now and not just by suppression, lol

Look at the context. It should be clear given the preceding, the ending of what you quoted, and the following sentences, I was talking about other faiths with professional clergy, not Elder Shumway or any LDS for that matter.

Against the rules unless things have changed.

I don’t see an issue with making exceptions for exceptional cases. The law doesn’t have to be all or nothing. There could be a process to be declared an exception by a committee if it turns out that self appraisal of how much one passes is not enough. This would not make it so anyone who wants to can use any facilities.

Somethings had been wiggling in my brain for sometime on this and I think I may have pinpointed what it is. You keep saying in response to pictures where the person has not only fully transitioned (except perhaps for bottom surgery, with clothes on, one can’t determine that) but truly looks like the opposite of their biological sex…the cases where I believe they should be allowed to use the restrooms of their appearance, not their biology to avoid biological women feeling unsafe because an apparent male had invaded women’s only spaces, that edge cases should not decide law. But why would we need to indicate biological sex on IDs except for those edge cases? Those are the cases where the IDs provide information one’s eyes do not. Serious question, not a gotcha as I am trying to understand the reasoning.

No, whether or not the person has transitioned As would putting biological sex on the ID of a person who clearly looks like the opposite of that sex. At the very least hormonal treatment.

And if all Elder Shumway was doing was taking credit for all the work the general membership was doing you might have a point, but he wasn’t. He was sharing his own past experiences as a member who served without financial support (last I heard activities planner is not a paid calling), he was honoring those who now served and then he shared reasons why we do this. His past experiences and ability to reflect on those was not invalidated because now he gets a living allowance. Giving recognition to volunteers is important. I think it’s a good thing when leadership doesn’t act like such work should be a given no matter what and instead show appreciation for it. I have always found it unfortunate when appreciation of our own turns into condemnation of the ways others serve God. Choosing to devote one’s whole career to serving God and his people is a major sacrifice, imo, for the vast majority of those who feel called to the ministry. That sacrifice should be recognized even if one believes there are difficulties a professional clergy can create. It’s not as if there aren’t major difficulties by having amateurs and more or less an honor system being the backbone of our teaching and missionary service. Both have pros and cons.

Thinking more of the hassle as in additional work and personnel needed and added inconvenience for others, those types of costs, not just financial. I suspect most prophets wouldn’t want to put a significant additional burden on others to keep him safe just so he was in his own home when there was another, already secured and paid for most likely place for him to stay. And just because the money is there doesn’t mean someone feels okay spending the Church’s money on themselves for a personal reason.

They were quite fun.

I am pretty sure it’s not in terms of at least links either he or others have posted. I have recently read an article or two (can’t remember if one article contain multiple stories or each article had one) where the individual describe where every case now they share the experience of others seeing their ID now and recognizing they are transgender and has transitioned, etc. I don’t believe I went looking for articles on this on my own lately, so it would have been here I got them. The number of transgenders who has access to medical treatment wasn’t that high in the past and just because society didn’t care at the time to protect this type of information doesn’t mean we shouldn’t. There is more reason to have my opioid use marked on my license as that could affect driving and issues with incarceration if I didn’t have access to my medication. I still don’t want that info to be on my license as I get enough looks from doctors and other medical professionals when they learn that I take them. If doctors have had a problem with seeing me like a drug addict (thankfully none of my long term ones treat me that way…they probably would not be long term if they did, then I really don’t want anyone else who has no clue on why or how I take them (20years at same prescribed or lower dose, tried every other med recommended and a few just suggested as possible for my disorder that my doctors offered me). I am sharing the above as an example of why I don’t believe sensitive and/or controversial medical information should be required on a license if the more relevant medical info like blood type and drug that affect driving use isn’t.

Excellent point, imo. Especially with the real world example of the confusion it caused. Smac, do you have any actual examples, not just hypotheticals where having the sex on a driver’s license helped clarify anything other than someone’s biological sex? I remember some general hypotheticals you posted, but can’t remember specific real world examples. If you have posted them, no need to repost as extremely long posts actually make it harder for me to remember details. I would prefer just a link to your post that has that info. The medical info is the only one I can think of that might be helpful due to the person being unconscious and unable to supply info themselves. I asked Chat if a biological sex marker on an id could prevent confusion for first responders in an emergency. Blood type seems more relevant to me to have on an ID to save crucial time, so it doesn’t seem like medical necessity is a valid reason lawmakers insisted a biological sex marker be on an ID or they would be including blood type as well.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2026/08/17/kearns-shooting-1-killed-2-injured/ Chat claimed the funeral was for a gang member, but I am not seeing that in the links it gave me, so could have made it up. Maybe mixed up with previous shooting? You don’t have to be LDS to use our chapels for funerals, but the family likely were imo. Now gang members being active or devout…that is more debatable. Iirc, one of the people involved in the previous case had spoken at the funeral and then went outside to smoke…again doesn’t mean not active and devout as we had a neighbour who had reactivated, but struggled with a smoking addiction, beat it too eventually, but it took its toll, died recently. Good guy. Still someone smoking or being in a gang…bet that links with a significant drop in activity level

Have no clue. Family probably originally was, but many have been here for several generations (started coming in the 1920s, really established in the 1950s). Not all who came were LDS converts though. https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=52551592&itype=cmsid

In Utah if using the chapel for a funeral, you tend to live in the same neighborhood. Gangs can overlap the same neighborhood surely? A church parking lot is an easy gathering place whether one is there or not for church. Our chapel parking lot in CA was a school bus stop and often where people carpooling would meet as they headed up to the freeway. I suspect very few parking there were LDS. It was the only place to park safely on that somewhat long stretch….think there was also an empty lot at the intersection with the freeway (or the road that went to the freeway, should doublecheck the map). 1/3 of the kids waiting for the bus were LDS for high school because of seminary. Just me for junior high because we lived down the street. added: memory was right, it was the freeway. They have a Caltrans Park and Ride there now. The busstop by the Church is even officially marked. Only one on the road…which wasn’t as long as I remembered it, but very wooded. I would always get lost driving around up there in my dreams, lol. The Church parking lot is really the best meeting place in the area with easy access to the freeway. The rest of the road is residential except for a little fruit stand.