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InCognitus

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  1. There's a long list of him telling people to keep things secret. When Jesus healed the leper, he said, "See thou tell no man; but go thy way.." (Matt 8:4). When he restored sight to the blind men, he "straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it" (Matt 9:30). When Jesus raised the damsel from the dead, "he charged them straitly that no man should know it" (Mark 5:43). When Jesus took the deaf and dumb man aside from the multitude and healed him, "he charged them that they should tell no man" (Mark 7:36). And again, when Jesus healed the blind man at Bethsaida, "he sent him away to his house, saying, Neither go into the town, nor tell it to any in the town." (Mark 8:26). Some of this was done to control the level of persecution so that Jesus would not be put to death before his time had come.
  2. Yep. The visitor center photos in that link date back at least to as early as June 1, 2013, according to the Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20130601163334/https://www.lds.org/locations/hyde-park-chapel?lang=eng#d
  3. You’re reverting again to the beginning of our discussion and ignoring everything that has been said so far, because this has already been explained. You keep trying to jump ahead to steps #3 and #4, but we need to fulfill steps #1 and #2 first (I’ll reiterate those four steps in a moment). To review, this is the complete chronology as explained in Ezekiel 37:15-22, using again the New English Bible translation: "These were the words of the LORD to me: Man, take one leaf of a wooden tablet and write on it, 'Judah and his associates of Israel.' Then take another leaf and write on it, 'Joseph, the leaf of Ephriaim and all his associates of Israel.' Now bring the two together to form one tablet; then they will be a folding tablet in your hand. When your fellow-country-men ask you to tell them what you mean by this, say to them, These are the words of the Lord GOD: I am taking the leaf of Joseph, which belongs to Ephraim and his associate tribes of Israel, and joining to it the leaf of Judah. Thus I shall make them one tablet, and they shall be one in my hand. The leaves on which you write shall be visible in your hand for all to see. Then say to them, These are the words of the Lord GOD: I am gathering up the Israelites from their places of exile among the nations; I will assemble them from every quarter and restore them to their own soil. I will make them one single nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and they shall have one king; they shall no longer be two nations or divided into two kingdoms...." So, before any gathering takes place, the writings upon the tablet of Judah need to be joined together with the writings upon the tablet of Ephraim and his associates in the hand of a prophet, and they become "one tablet" in his hand for everyone to see. This is the key to understanding the beginning of the gathering, because Ezekiel continues as follows (and this is where I reiterate the four steps): "Then say to them, These are the words of the Lord GOD: I am gathering up the Israelites from their places of exile among the nations; I will assemble them from every quarter and restore them to their own soil. I will make them one single nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and they shall have one king; they shall no longer be two nations or divided into two kingdoms...." How does #1 happen? Where is Israel "gathered" from their places of exile among the nations before they can be "assembled" (#2) and restored to their own soil in #3 and #4? Isaiah gives us a very similar prophecy in 11:10-16. He describes the events like this: Notice that Isaiah describes a pattern that is identical to Ezekiel. First, an ensign is set up for the nations (very much like Ezekiel's writings of Judah and Ephraim coming together in the hand of a prophet), and the Lord begins to recover the remnant of his people. And notice that the gathering and assembly of the people happens prior to them going back to their lands. They can't start heading back to their lands until they recognize who they are and are gathered. You haven't accounted for that portion of these prophecies. You claim this is "not speaking of gathering Israel into stakes of Zion in countries like Australia, Japan, or China". What evidence do you have that they are not gathered or assembled in one or more of those places prior to them returning to their own lands later on? How does this gathering work in your view? Does one of these scattered people just wake up one morning in China and say to themselves, "Hey, I think I'm of the tribe of Issachar. I feel like migrating, so I'm going to catch a plane to Israel today". Or how do they become recognized for who they are so they can be "gathered" and return to their own lands? What about Russia? Does that count? That's where Sister Nelson was when she said they had identified members of all twelve of the tribes of Israel in a 2018 conference. Recognizing (or self recognition of) who these people are is an important step that needs to happen before they can return to their own lands, don't you think? That happens through their coming to Christ in the gospel. You are putting limits on God's promises to Israel and not taking into account the prophesies that have been given about their lands of inheritance if you assume that Ezekiel is talking only of "the land of their inheritance, like it was at their zenith in the Old Testament." And, I'm not talking about only of the promises made to Joseph. To Abraham God made this covenant, "Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates" (Genesis 15:18). This extends far beyond "the land of their inheritance, like it was at their zenith in the Old Testament." And some of the tribes were given areas that go beyond what was allotted to them in Joshua 19. Take Zebulun for example. In Jacob's blessing to Zebulun in Genesis 49, it says "Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for an haven of ships; and his border shall be unto Zidon." (Genesis 49:13) How many maps of the land allotments to the twelve tribes of Israel show Zebulun having a sea shore with a "haven of ships", let alone a border extending up to Sidon? This map shows Zebulun land locked, with Sidon in the upper sea shore region of Asher: When Zebulun is restored to his own soil, will he still receive the little land locked area shown above, or will he get what the Lord actually promised him in his blessing? Furthermore, in the last two chapters of Ezekiel (47-48), a final vision is shown to Ezekiel of the future restoration of Israel where he sees a new temple and waters issuing forth to heal the land and they even heal the waters of the Dead Sea. Then the boundaries of Israel are completely expanded and realigned, extending way farther north than the prior land area (up to Hamath). So their land of their inheritance, after Christ returns, will be far different than "like it was at their zenith in the Old Testament." But none of the tribes get returned to their own soil until steps #3 and #4 of my breakdown of Ezekiel's prophecy, which I presume will be when Christ returns, since that is the only time they will have "one king" over them. You missed representatives of the tribe of Judah when you excluded the Mulekites and the descendants of Zoram (tribe unknown). It is unclear if all those who departed with Mulek were not a mixture of any other tribes too. Or maybe you believe Mulek and the faithful Mulekites and the faithful descendants of Zoram are not relevant. When I said the people of the Book of Mormon are only a "portion" of those ten tribes that were scattered, I didn't say how many tribes were included, nor did I infer that it was only one tribe. So no, I didn't miss this. Given that the "meek shall inherit the earth" (Psalm 37:9-11, 18-22 and 34, Matthew 5:5), I'd say that covers everything as a land of inheritance when Christ returns.
  4. Or maybe a selfish dream? Shell fish steamed?
  5. I'm sure it varies from ward to ward, but the Stake Patriarch spoke recently in our ward as a companion to the high council speaker (and of course he spoke on patriarchal blessings). And there was an entire talk devoted to the topic at the April General Conference: When to Receive Your Patriarchal Blessing, By Elder Kazuhiko Yamashita. I haven't read mine as often now as I did when I was a young adult, but when I read it now I get a completely different perspective on some of the things said in it and even recognize some fulfillment of blessings made in it (and the reason for some of the warnings). It's like re-reading scripture every year in Come Follow Me (or prior programs). Yeah, I read it before, but maybe this year I get something new from it and find new ways to apply it.
  6. Nephi was explaining that the prophecy by Zenos was to be a sign given unto some which were of the house of Israel and were on an "isle of the sea". Later Nephi explained that his people were in that situation (as he said) in 2 Nephi 10:20–22 ("and we are upon an isle of the sea.") And the prophecy that Nephi quotes in 1 Nephi 19 continues on to explain that the signs will be different in some areas compared to others: "For thus spake the prophet: The Lord God surely shall visit all the house of Israel at that day, some with his voice, because of their righteousness, unto their great joy and salvation, and others with the thunderings and the lightnings of his power, by tempest, by fire, and by smoke, and vapor of darkness, and by the opening of the earth, and by mountains which shall be carried up. And all these things must surely come, saith the prophet Zenos. And the rocks of the earth must rend; and because of the groanings of the earth, many of the kings of the isles of the sea shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The God of nature suffers." (1 Nephi 19:11–12) He also explains that the signs would be different in Jerusalem. Genesis 10:5 was one of the references I gave you, yes. It's not just "the church" that explains them as coasts or continents. That's the Hebrew meaning: And, it's a translation of the word given in many different Bible editions, such as: Gen 10:5 - NKJV: "From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations." Gen 10:5 - ESV: "From these the coastland peoples spread in their lands, each with his own language, by their clans, in their nations." Gen 10:5 - NASB20: "From these the people of the coastlands of the nations were separated into their lands, every one according to his language, according to their families, into their nations." As the Genesis 10:5 verse infers, the coastlines were often used to separate the lands from one another. It's simply a boundary designation. Egypt could have been something else, because in the plagues there are no mention of earthquakes, lightning, and other indicators of a volcanic eruption like those found in the Book of Mormon account.
  7. Have you seen the TV show, "The Irrational"? It's new (on NBC), a 2023 show. You might like it if you haven't seen it (my wife and I are enjoying it).
  8. There's a sequel to that? (I saw the original). What's the sequel? "Once I was a 12 to 13 year old young women group person, formerly known as 'Beehives'"?
  9. The area where the Book of Mormon events are described. Where exactly that happened is still a matter of investigation, although (as we discussed previously) the Mesoamerican region is one possible candidate (see John E. Clark, Revisiting "A Key for Evaluating Book of Mormon Geographies"). And (as I said before), Jerry D. Grover, Jr. has documented as many as six volcanos that were active in the first century AD in the central Mexico and Guatemala regions (see pages 32-49 of Geology of the Book of Mormon). Volcanic eruptions more completely account for the quakings of the earth, the thundering and lightning and thick vapors of darkness that are described in the Book of Mormon (in my opinion).
  10. I thought I was clear on that when I said: "Gathering literal Israel into the stakes of Zion occurs in #1 and #2." But what is the real difference between "literal" and "spiritual" Israel? Is not a literal descendant of one of the twelve tribes of Israel part of spiritual Israel as well, when they have the law written in their hearts? Literal Israel is being gathered now, from all of the twelve tribes. President Nelson has said, "Those whose lineage is from the various tribes of Israel are those whose hearts will most likely be turned to the Lord". The designation of Ephraim is often given in the Old Testament to represent all of the ten northern tribes of Israel. The people of the Book of Mormon are only a portion of those ten tribes that were scattered, but their record coming forth is important to the gathering, as Ezekiel describes. First, I disagree on #2, the gathering and assembling of the people precedes them being "restored" to their own soil. The KJV puts it this way: "I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land" (Ezekiel 37:21). Second, "the land of their inheritance, like it was at their zenith of the Old Testament" is what #4 is all about, but this will most likely happen primarily after the second coming of Christ. And it's not just limited to the land "at their zenith of the Old Testament", because God's promises to Joseph extends far beyond that (see below). Israel will inherit the lands promised to them, some of them as it is described in Genesis 49 and Deuteronomy 33. Some of those lands go beyond what is described during the Biblical time when there was a northern and southern kingdom. Jacob's blessing to his son, Joseph (Genesis 49:22-26, Deuteronomy 33:13-17), has an interesting promise. Verse 26 of Genesis 49 reads, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren." The Rashi (Jewish Rabbi) commentary on this verse has this to say: "עד תאות גבעות עולם EVEN TO THE BOUNDARIES OF THE EVERLASTING HILLS — Because my blessings have prevailed, extending to the very ends of the bounds of the everlasting hills, for He gave me a blessing that bursts all bounds, one that has no limits, that reaches even unto the four corners of the world, as it is stated, (Genesis 28:14) '[God said to Jacob] and thou shalt spread abroad to the West and to the East [and to the North and to the South]', an unqualified promise that was made neither to Abraham nor to Isaac. For to Abraham He said, (Genesis 13:14) “Lift up thine eyes and look northwards etc. … for all the land which thou seest to thee will I give it”, and He showed him only the Land of Israel. To Isaac He said, (Genesis 26:3) “for unto thee and unto thy seed will I give all these lands, and I will establish the oath [which I swore unto Abraham thy father]”. It is to this that Isaiah alludes when he said, (Isaiah 58:14) “And I will feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father” (Shabbat 118b), and he did not say, “with the heritage promised to Abraham”." So, the land areas that Israel inherits surpasses what they were allowed to have during the land assignments by Joshua. But ultimately they become "one nation" under God and his Christ.
  11. This has been my experience as well (and I have conversed with numerous atheists through the years on message boards, and in religion chat rooms).
  12. I already discussed this with you in September under the posting name of @telnetd. The volcanic eruptions definitely can account for the thick darkness, the lightning, the earthquakes, and everything described.
  13. Ezekiel is not speaking of that. He is referring to the physical land where the house of Israel and the house of Judah occupied. They would be gathered together as they were before they split into two kingdoms. Actually, Ezekiel breaks it down in Ezekiel 37:21-22 like this (from the quote in my prior post): "Then say to them, These are the words of the Lord GOD: I am gathering up the Israelites from their places of exile among the nations; I will assemble them from every quarter and restore them to their own soil. I will make them one single nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and they shall have one king; they shall no longer be two nations or divided into two kingdoms...." Gathering literal Israel into the stakes of Zion occurs in #1 and #2. #3 can happen concurrently with #1 and #2, but won't be completely fulfilled until #4 when Christ returns and "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Revelation 11:15) and the LORD will "set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd." (Ezekiel 34:23)
  14. That seems like a "neener neener neener" kind of title for that video (i.e. "Atheists can't disprove God"). Of course atheists would also say that deists can't prove God. So we're at an impasse. But I would agree that the problem of evil can't (and doesn't) disprove God.
  15. Yes: Helaman 14:20, "But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead." The sign was that after the three days of darkness, he would rise again from the dead (resurrection). The last part of 1 Nephi 19:10 says "...and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel." (1 Nephi 19:10) Zenos was an old world prophet who prophesied that those who would "inhabit the isles of the sea" (who are of the house of Israel) would be given that sign. "Isles of the sea" is a phrase in the Hebrew scriptures that indicates far off lands, or coasts and continents, habitable spots (see verses like Genesis 10:5, Isaiah 11:11 and 24:15). And in 2 Nephi 10:20–22, Nephi indicates "we have been led to a better land, for the Lord has made the sea our path, and we are upon an isle of the sea." So Zenos was talking about the land where the Book of Mormon people were living, and perhaps other similar areas. I think Samuel the Lamanite makes this clear in the verse from Helaman 14:20 I quoted above, combined with what it says in 3 Nephi 8:5. He died on the fourth day of the month, and rose again on the seventh day (after the three days of darkness).
  16. I think the so called natural "evil" can have a totally different take (in my opinion) if one considers the possibility that God created the earth through a somewhat natural evolutionary process, where events (including genetic defects) really do occur (for the most part) quite naturally. God may make some adjustments or corrections along the way, but he primarily lets nature run its course. And when we were sent down to this fallen world, we also knew the risks of the natural order of events. But apparently it is worth it for our experience and the development of our social connections with mankind. I think the response that God gives to Job in the in the last few chapters of the book of Job (38-41) for why bad things happen to good people, also reflects this methodology. In those chapters all the phenomena of nature are discussed, from mountain goats giving birth to the winds and lightning and the ordinances of heaven. God shows Job how all of creation is interrelated in complicated and complex ways. But the message is that in all the suffering and bad things that can happen to people in mortality, we are not alone, and God is there to help us through it all.
  17. And to make matters worse, Dehlin (and other people) take small snippets or edited portions of the four and five hour interviews and make them into Youtube "shorts" (like he did with his Dan McClellan interviews), which if you watch out of context can convey a much different understanding of what is being said by the person being interviewed.
  18. Seventies are handled similar to apostles. When Elder James J. Hamula (an area seventy) was excommunicated, the church news article said it was "disciplinary action by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles."
  19. Then I would take webbles advice and just let it drop, because you did your part. It's out of your hands. And if it is that much more complicated, then there may be complications for which you are not aware as well.
  20. If your stake president acknowledged that neither he or any other stake president has jurisdiction in this, then your issue is with your stake president, because "Salt Lake" should have nothing to do with this. From the General Handbook: As it says above, "only the stake president decides if a council should be held to address the conduct". It's all on him, according to the Handbook. This is true even if the person was in a different ward or stake when the serious sin was committed:
  21. Yes, but a "Mormon" has to be holding it.
  22. "They" was Joseph Smith. He changed that in the 1840 edition of the Book of Mormon (see page 115, third to the last paragraph at the end of the paragraph). Unfortunately, subsequent editions of the Book of Mormon were copied from the 1837 edition, so the change that Joseph Smith made to the 1840 edition wasn't fixed and put back to the way he intended it until the 1981 edition.
  23. I always ask how long they want me to speak, even if it's a request from the bishopric for a regular sacrament meeting talk. And I did that especially one time when I was scheduled to be the companion speaker for a high councilman several years ago. I was aware of the speaking assignment several months ahead of time because of my particular calling, and the high councilman called me the week prior to the talk to confirm that I would be speaking, and I asked him how long I should take. He told me twelve minutes! (And let me tell you that was a tough talk to edit down to twelve minutes given the topic, but I timed it out perfectly). I think it's important for whoever schedules a person to speak to let them know how much time they should take, and the speaker should respect that. Your comment reminded me of a "story" that was told by a high counselor speaker when I was on my mission (I wrote it down). This is how it went: "I knew two boys that were about 12 years old and were of different religions. One boy was a Catholic and the other a Latter-day Saint. These boys became curious about each other's religions, how they differed, and what kind of things they believed in and taught. So, they decided to attend each other's meetings to see what they were like. "The first week they went to the Catholic boy's church. The LDS boy was very curious about what was going on, and every time a candle was lit or something happened, the LDS boy would lean over to the Catholic boy and ask, 'What does that mean?', and the Catholic boy would explain it to him. "The next week the two boys went to the LDS meeting and it just happened to be the high councilman week to speak in church. Well, the meeting progressed and the high councilman got up to speak and took his watch off of his wrist and set it on the pulpit beside him so he could watch the time as councilmen do sometimes. And the Catholic boy leaned over to the LDS boy and asked, 'What does that mean?' And the LDS boy replied, 'ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.'"
  24. Originally the Word of Wisdom was "not by commandment or constraint", so whatever Joseph Smith or other members of the church did at the time is irrelevant. They drank wine while in the Carthage jail. So what? But the topic of this thread is not about the Word of Wisdom, it's about tithing (so we return now to our regular program).
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