Teancum

Nothing more or nothing less? Try reading what you wrote. You essentially disparaged and trashed former believers like me and portrayed us in a very ugly way. Your testimony really must be shakey for you to view those who no longer accept the claims of Mormonism in such a vile way.

What a horrible view you have of your fellow humans beings. So self assured, self righteous and smug.

But isn't this due to the leadership and what they teach?

Yes that is a fair summary. But I wonder what damage or misunderstanding may have been avoided had President Kimball said something, The Benson talk is often used to drive home a point that Prophets and Apostles better be followed and one chooses not to follow them at their own peril. Same for McConkie and his book Mormon Doctrine. President McKay did not like the book but let it remain (after revisions) and for decades members viewed it as a fifth standard work.

Nationalism or patriotism. I think the two are different.

Nope. Nada. We have a secular constitution. Worship how, where and what you want. Or not. But keep your religion to yourself and don't legislate it onto others. No we don't need Christian Nationalism in any form in the USA. And frankly, from what I see from Christian Nationalists, they are much of a good Christian anyway. And most the Christian Nationalists don't think Latter-day Saints are Christian anyway. So be careful what you wish for.

Fair enough and a good summary. But Benson's talk is still troubling to me in that it gives the Prophet a lot more authority than it seems the Prophet should have. We know Benson was very political and rather extreme to the right, IMO. Heck, I remember as a kid in the 60s my dad complaining about Elder Benson and his far right John Birch Society activism. And my dad was pretty conservative in his political views. If I recall, in the President Kimball biography by his son, it seem President Kimball was not happy with Benson's 14 fundamentals of the Prophet talk but never did anything publicly about it,.

An LDS Bishop can add what you might term some sort of penance. Not partaking of the LDS Sacrament can be on. Restricting use of priesthood such as doing a baptism or other LDS ordinance is another. Withholding a temple recommend is another. These are are informal forms of discipline.

Remember when Hiram Page and his peep stone? And how fast Joseph received a "revelation" that essentially said that Joseph was the only person to receive revelation for the church? Do the LDS GAs constantly teach that we should "follow the brethren" and that they cannot lead us astray? Did Bruce McConkie scold Eugen England and tell England that it was McConkie's job to declare doctrine stating "It is my province to teach to the Church what the doctrine is. It is your province to echo what I say or to remain silent." https://www.eugeneengland.org/a-professor-and-apostle-correspond-eugene-england-and-bruce-r-mcconkie-on-the-nature-of-god Can a person receive a revelation that contradicts what church leaders state? What happens to them if they do so? How about numerous talks a where GAs equate the words of LDS Prophets and Apostles and if you disagree with them then it is the same as disagreeing with Jesus? I agree with you that the church teaches we all are entitled to revelation but only in our own space and stewardships. One cannot openly disagree with LDS GAs and be considered to be in good standing in the church. So sure, revelation for you personally but if it disagrees with church leadership one needs to be quiet about it. I am sure you are familiar with Benson's 14 Fundamentals in Following The Prophet? This talk has been referenced a number of times in General Conference over the number of years so it still seems popular. What are your thoughts on that talk? https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/ezra-taft-benson/fourteen-fundamentals-following-prophet/ Like I have said before, it seems you and I grew up and participated in a different church.

By the way, we do agree that nobody has some more special access to some God if one exists. But we sure do not agree upon the idea that LDS GAs don't claim some higher access to that God than the average joe.

Really? LDS Prophets and Apostles DO NOT claim to have a unique revelatory relationship with God? Are you really LDS? How about you support that position. You are clearly mistaken. Let's start with Joseph Smith. You know, the one where Jesus says "This generation shall have my word through you."

I find it specious to say some LDS leader was about to lead the church astray so God took him. As you note, it could be applied in many situation. My dad often joked, and not always in jest, that God took Harold B Lee because he was about to lead the church astray. I never liked that line of thinking.

When did it become the apologetic way to approach the revelations these LDS Prophets and Apostles received in such a pedantic and tortured way? Both Taylor and Woodruff could not be correct. But they could have both been wrong.

Or Wilford Woodruff and the other LDS leaders where mistaken. Woodruff didn't last all that long after the manifesto did he? Or more likely, Taylor was adamantly opposed to doing away with plural marriage and so he imagined up and revelation. Woodruff was in that camp I believe right up to the 1890 manifesto. But he realized that the US government was more powerful than the church and that the church would economically at least, be destroyed so he capitulated. Yet there was plenty of post manifesto plural marriage till finally, JFS threw down the gauntlet. The Church leaders, after all was said and done, wanted Utah to be a state. See, what an easy explanation. No god involved. Just humans slogging along. If there was some god involved in all this he did a pretty sloppy job of it and was weaker than the might and power of the US government.

That is right. They are only human. They are not special. They do not have any special communications from some God more than any other human has or does not have.

Ah what a tangled web of suppression and deceit by top LDS leaders of historical facts and documents that cause problems for their prophetic claims. It certainly does not inspire confidence that these men have any special access to some sort of divine guidance more than anyone else.

This was really a great read and full of wonderful principles to build a healthy happy life on. Thank you for sharing it.

I am more curious to understand what storied you think are fake stories.

And what fake stories would that be?

The real story of Joseph Smith? Does that mean all the other stories I have read about him and not the real story? 🙃😃

You won't get anywhere with Teddy. See he knows and his personal testimony trumps anything or any evidence you can share. You cannot discuss things with someone like this.

You do not seem to understand that your testimony about what Mormonism says about early Christianity does not hold water when looking at the evidence we have. There was nothing at all the reflected Joseph's so called restoration in early Christianity. You start with the premise that Mormonism is true and thus attempt to fit into early Christianity something that simply did not exist. Even when I was a teen and a missionary I thouight the picture flip chart that showed the LDS FP and q of 12 and showed that Jesus had the same set up was silly. There was no first presidency of Peter, James and John and it seems pretty clear even from the NT that James, the brother of Jesus, ran the Jerusalem church. Try studying something outside your confirmation bias world of LDS resources and read something scholarly about early Christianity. Start with the Mawell institute recent book on the Apostasy if you really need an LDS source.

That is because Jesus really did not start a church nor did he likely claim to be God. All that came later and the doctrine was developed as the various sects started to grow and take hold. Paul was the most successful missionary to the gentiles and Paul's ideas seems to take hold. The proto-orthodox church eventually became the winner and the other sects tended to fall by the way side. Read Bart Ehrman's book How Jesus Became God. The LDS view that Jesus organized a church that Mormonism mirrors to day is total nonsense. What you and @teddyawareare doing is reading back Mormonism into early Christianity then you claim an apostasy. Even the Former Farms does not agree with that any more based on a book they published a few years ago.

Well I do not need to watch the video to know that is a ludicrous claim. And honestly, in all my years as a hobby apologist, I never ran into that argument that I can recall.

I want to say I really appreciate your approach.