Teancum

I have long been puzzled that RFM, who posted here as Consiglieri, has not had his membership withdrawn. He must have especially tolerant local leaders.

Whether one agree or not with the policies and procedures the the Church uses when it comes to disciplinary issues or not does not matter. A member like Brophy most certainly is aware of them. Don' act all surprised when you are a vocal public critic of the church and your membership is withdrawn. For personal reasons, I still valuer my church membership and that is why I do not do podcasts and have never appeared to be interviewed on a podcast. And John Dehlin would be happy to have me. But I have no desire to so such things.

I dunno....comparing the priesthood ban to a bad military order to take a hill that turns out strategically worthless is a stretch. Yes blacks could be baptized but they were restricted from the "blessings" of temple covenants and holding the priesthood. Unless you are arguing that those things really don't mean that much in mortality (because yes I know that the come back is they would have those "blessings" somehow in the afterlife) that seems to be simply brushing it aside. These really do impact salvation. And then there are all the "wonderful" attempts to explain the ban and justify it. And now it is "well never mind, we got it wrong." Wrong for over a hundred years. It doesn't generate much faith in the ability of the LDS leaders to get things right if they can be so wrong on something that is more than a copywrite issue.

You really think one must follow policy even if the top leaders are wrong? Do you really think the comparison to the military is a proper one. And as you note, a member of the military is obligated to disobey illegal orders. Certainly wrong orders may still be legal so yes a member of the military should obey a wrong order. Still I do not like the comparison. Church membership is not the military. The old teaching from I thon Heber J Grant that one will be blessed for following the prophet even if he is wrong, but don't worry, the lord would take a prophet before allowing him to lead us astray. How did that work for the priesthood ban? You admit it was wrong so I guess leader can lead us astray right?

Man you have pretty thin skin. It is simply factually true that the church is only having significant growth in demographics where people are poorer. That has nothing to do with race at all. And you said ignorant not me. So take a hard look in the mirror.

Why? It is factually true.

If you think your world wide activity rate is all hunky dory more power to you. The only one bringing up regions is you.

Whatever happened to @smac97?

Sloppy? Do you have more than one example?

I do not know if you are referring to me. I simply noted my friends experience in Chili and an MP. Feel free to enlighten us on activity rates in other areas.

Fair enough.

Meh. I think he and RFM are pretty bright and knowledgeable about things LDS. I did not expect you or any other LDS apologist to agree. That is quite the stretch of a casual relationship. Is that the criteria of a strong critic now? Interesting take.

So if there is one false revelation how can you trust the others are not false as well?

If this is the case how can it be trusted?

Wow! That is a lot of I do and I do not believe. It is a tough issue to get one's head around and still believe this nonsense was somehow divinely commanded. Ocam's razor seems useful here.

I think this is spot on and I think Dehlin and others have experienced this when they have tried to build a sustainable community of ex and disaffected members. I do not think any have had much success. I could be wrong as I do not follow such groups and where I live there is not a lot of LDS people-active, ex or disaffected so a community is tough to sustain with those low numbers.

A close friend of mine who served as a mission president in one of the Santiago Chile missions focused much of his missionaries time on finding and activating the inactive. Stakes in his mission had many wards that had 1000 members on the list with around 100 members attending. The strength of the wards and stakes were decimated by this and activation seemed a higher purpose than new converts.

I am not sure there is exact data. But the Church has about 17.5 million members of record. Rough estimates put active members at about 30% to 40%. If that is accurate, adding in former members to 60% to 70% inactivity then you have much more in the former inactive camp. I recall Elder Marlin Jensen giving a priesthood leadership training around 2010 to my stake. He said there were 1 million members in the lost members file, meaning they are on the records but they cannot be found. When I was active we periodically would work on the lost member list in our ward to see if we could find address information for the church records. It was hard work with little success.

I am not sure there is exact data. But the Church has about 17.5 million members of record. Rough estimates put active members at about 30% to 40%. If that is accurate, adding in former members to 60% to 70% inactivity then you have much more in the former inactive camp. I recall Elder Marlin Jensen giving a priesthood leadership training around 2010 to my stake. He said there were 1 million members in the lost members file, meaning they are on the records but they cannot be found. When I was active we periodically would work on the lost member list in our ward to see if we could find address information for the church records. It was hard work with little success.

He and Bill Reel can be somewhat strident at times. But I don't think it excessive. But is has been almost a year since I listened to an entire episode.

Who refused to debate RFM.

Well according to @Pyreauxand others who suffer great indignation over the activities of MS or Mormon Discussions it must mean they and us are somehow broken if we support or listen to or interact with such a community because if we had moved on we would not be sucked into such a negative platform as MS or Mormon Discussion. We should just forget about Mormonism and be quiet. This is spite of the fact that most of us devoted our entire lives to the church and most still have a lot of ties to the church. Our friends and family can try to save our benighted souls and such but we apparently have a character flaw by seeking support, community, honest and open transparency about things LDS and so on. The idea is really ludicrous.

I am carious. How many episodes of MS have you watched and listened to?

I looked at the MS website and did not fine and merchandise. Mormon Discussions sales merchandise but non of it Mocks the church.

I am not surprised at all on this. My understand is Michelle Stone, as you noted, took her material down and was basically threatened into silence on the issue and was not given the boot. As for their position, it is total bunk and easily refuted. Bill Reel and RFM did a series on Michelle Stone's stuff and she even may have been on their show. But they destroyed her arguments.