3DOP

Hi bluebell. Everybody only has their own experience. And sometimes it is minimal, but we don't realize it. I would not dismiss your own experience. My anecdotal experience is very limited. As for the Apostles Creed? You guys could accept that. The communion of saints would be happening in baptisms for the dead. Everybody who is ultimately saved by Jesus' work is intimately connected, even if we don't fully realize it. More than that, through the Incarnation, (this is Catholic because we deny that we are the same species as God), we humans have become united in brotherhood, even if we do not accept Jesus, God made man, a creature, made out of something! We are connected to Adam whether we like it or not. Likewise with "the last Adam". Jesus. Made out of pre-existent matter as a man! How we treat anybody, is how we treat Jesus. St. Augustine, whatever anybody despises about his teachings said, "Love, and do what you will." Who can argue with that? And however much I might doubt John Lennon's theology...or his vocabulary..."All you need is love."? That is a Christian idea that preceded the Beatles by two millenia. It is arguably an Old Testament Mosaic idea that was over 3,500 years before the Lennon-McCartney team. God bless. 3DOP, the long winded, going off on his own reveries at night. May God love us all who love His Son, and may we worship together someday.

Thanks Amulek. Not your fault. I figured I had to have misunderstood.

I had gone six years to a Baptist Bible College, and pastored churches for another seven years. I think Navidad might have preached there once! But I wasn't taught about creedal issues, nor did I teach any. After that we visited at Reformed, Anglican, and Lutheran churches which had been historically creedal. I wanted doctrinal clarity for about three more years before becoming Catholic. It was and still is striking to me, that there is such a heavy emphasis on the Trinity in the Catholic Church. Until I became Catholic I would not have believed with confidence in any creed. I was consistently sola scriptura. I possessed a 66 book creed. I still don't believe that the Scripture alone clearly teaches baptismal regeneration, the filioque, the hypostatic union, papal infallibilty, the Marian doctrines, or any other defined Catholic teachings that have become obligatory to Catholics over the centuries.

Interesting. I had heard of that positioning. I think the idea comes from reflection on the fact that the Mass is a community meal. I have not experienced Mass in that setting. What do you think of it?

Hi Amulek. No harm done but... Are you thinking that it is customary for a Catholic priest to celebrate Mass in the middle of the building? I am not saying it is never done. I have never seen it. Above you describe Catholics as having "two rows of benches" in many churches. Benches with no backs to them? Only two rows? I guess those are for folks who aren't able to stand? Maybe I am misunderstanding the picture you were trying to describe? Most of our churches have pews with backs and kneelers and enough of them for the ordinary capacity of the Sunday Masses. I think maybe some of the Eastern liturgies worship standing? Benches would make it especially difficult for many of us older folks. I know I could not kneel longer than about five minutes without being able to support myself from the back of the pew in front of me. This is just a practical thing too. No one is required to, but most of us WANT to kneel at certain times during the liturgy, and perhaps for an extended time after communion, before our Savior (as we believe) is placed in the tabernacle. Carry on with the subject. I find it very interesting to see how different church architecture reflects different beliefs and worship forms...and as you are wisely suggesting, practical logistics. I have enough trouble with distractions at Mass, when we are all facing the same direction. I would be concerned that it would be hard not to be looking at our neighbors if the liturgy was provided while we were all facing each other in a circle. The kids would have to be taught not to wave at their friends. The center of the building can sound like a good idea. You all do well to consider practical problems.

Prayers for Ray, dad of Pyreaux. And prayers for Pyreaux, son of Ray. And when the times comes, consolation for all loved ones of Ray.

Mystery is what makes knowledge charming to us. The possibility of the hope for the light of discovery is what motivates man to try to grasp the mysteries of creation or the mysteries of God. We are "wired" in such a way as to find delight when light shines on a mystery. "A truth that is easily discovered can neither enchant nor hold [our attention]. To enchant and hold us it must surprise us by its novelty, it must overpower us with its magnificence, its wealth and profundity must exhibit ever new splendor, ever deeper abysses to the exploring eye. We find but slight stimulation and pleasure in studies whose subject matter is soon exhausted and so leaves nothing further for our wonderment. But how powerfully sciences enthrall us when every glance into them suggests new marvels to divine, and every facet of the object imprisons new and greater splendors!" ---The Mysteries of Christianity, Matthias Scheeben, B. Herder Book Co., St. Louis Mo, 1947, p. 5 I am out of town with our daughter's family and this thread was causing me to think about the book on my table at home which I just quoted. It wasn't deep and lasting, but perhaps you can imagine my delighted surprise at finding the very book I have at home here at my daughter's house. It might be a weak illustration of the value of mystery and discovery. But there is little so invigorating to the soul as a pleasant surprise. This is what all those who are aware of their lack of knowledge are searching for as they try to explore and find the new and startling truths that await us because besides Himself, God made all of His world full of mystery...for us!

Okay. Well said. You are right. I have been wrong. My mind is changed. It was a ridiculous looking mascot.

So Wagner ended up having around ten good years with the Cleveland Indians. 25 homers a year. Maybe a little less. But certainly more than 200 home runs. A nice career. I bring that up to scrape the scab that was bleeding somewhere else about name changing. We talked about this Bombay change. So...let's talk about the blankety Guardians who were once supposedly so offensive to Native Americans. Why were American Indians so upset about a baseball team, but everybody is okay with the state of Indiana and its capital, Indianapolis? I propose that we exclude this state from the Union until they drop their racism. Guardianapolis, Guardiana should be acceptable to all sensitivities. I am an old man who remembers Sammy Davis Jr. making jokes about his race with good nature in an era when there was certainly more anti black racism. Now the racism, ageism, and sexism is turned on me. White Boy Boomers are the worst. I sat with the only black kid in our high school at basketball games. But I am a bigot and object of hate because of my age, sex, and race? So just kill me you young people of righteous virtue. Good bye. Sorry for the ranting stream of consciousness...kind of...this is how it feels to be hated...online.

Calm, hi. Don't feel bad about your brain drain. I can't remember things from recent days. But I can't forget my old baseball cards from the 60's! My son must know I like to show off my unforgetfulness of the past. He asked me about Leon Wagner the other day. I gave him the history of how the Giants needed to clear out a young outfield full of phenoms, including Wagner, and two Alou brothers, to make space for Willie Mays, Orlanda Cepeda and Willie McCovey to play every day. My GP, who also can talk old baseball, (which means he must be a good doctor), has a word for our phenomenon, but I have forgotten the word! But anyway, it isn't dementia, (if I remember correctly). Take care calm, 3DOP

So I have been waiting for more LDS input. I thought Ostler was too "classical" for most LDS. Calm, you will remember our friend David Waltz. I just now left a message on his phone. He has a library of LDS books like probably few LDS and no other non-LDS in the world. Ostler is the only recommendation? He is the last word? Surely he is not the only word? Anyway, I will report back if I find out there is any other LDS book that talks about God as an exalted man.

Hi MustardSeed. I apologize for my rant about new words and names of places. It distracted from the discussion and I am sorry if it seemed directed at you personally.

I found out Friday night that the young have changed the name of Bombay, India. I don't need to say the new name. I guess I dislike all the name changes and new vocabularies needed to communicate with the young. But whatever. Enjoy your new schedule and your new words. Sorry that our words (and schedule?) don't work for you.

I know I am giving myself away as old and out of touch. Is it good, or bad, or something else, to be "gobsmacked", according to the current lexicon among our young people?

Best to you too, Navidad. God brings good out of bad, out of weakness. I hope you and Mrs. Navi the best. God knows what that is for each individually. Its a tough life for most. Keep on. We are getting towards the end. Keep on. We still have maybe greater strength than ever we have known, when we are frail in body. God love you and Mrs. Navidad.

In terms of the life of the Church, not at all! Less than two millenia. I tried to emphasize that dreadful settings, necessarily endured with our Lord are wonderful. You might have missed my edit? The importance has to do with necessity. When it became unnecessary to celebrate our faith in ancient tombs, it seemed to be inoffensive and even pleasing to God if we should celebrate in a more congenial atmosphere. I am saying that it might be good if none of God's people assume that a particular of worship, imposed by particular circumstances should be thought to be normative for all times and places. I was giving an approval, for what my approval is worth, if the Latter-day Saints are being led towards a worship space that welcomed a more visual experience of God as well as the auditory. I am not forgetting that "faith that cometh by hearing". But I am thinking that all of our senses can come into play in our worship. PS: I see you changed your mind about posting. That's fair. I did not take your remark in an adversarial way. I hope that my reply clarifies my thoughts in a way that you and our LDS friends find to be reasonable.

Maybe my church's best days were underground (the catacombs of Rome). Today we can still see the primitive images of biblical stories painted on the walls. Thank God for our fathers and their best efforts under their circumstances. But when we could freely come out, it would have been unreasonable for my fathers to argue for continuing to worship in a truly dreadful and undesirable setting. Skeletons and skulls in the dark with a candle and Jesus where we gather, can be wonderful when persecuted. But when we can, the truths of the faith of the catacombs has inspired beautiful human art and architecture which in a different culture is an aid to worship too. Thank God for my later fathers who recognized that the Church adapts to every circumstance, and especially with our best efforts to honor and glorify the One that we worship.

I was thinking about Dario today! People come and go. It seems like many have gone. I thought you might be one of those, Dario. Anyway Dario, what is on your mind?

Navidad, For what it is worth, LDS who are familiar with Ostler have seemed to me, in my limited experience, to be much more understanding and less dismissive about my belief in an unchanging God.

Thanks Tony. I will be praying for you as well. Teddy hi. Do you recommend the same calisthenics every day? Is your six day the same every day? I don't know if my knees could handle deep squats. I know you are not a therapist, and I'll do more research, but would you recommend going down as far as my knees permit, or would some other substitute accomplish the same thing? Thanks

I have a friend about my age, 70, who happily mentioned that he broke a personal record on "the elliptical", (whatever that is) of burning over 600 calories in either a half hour or an hour. When it isn't religion or sports, we talk fitness. I retired over a year ago and have put on weight. I have started walking, and like Teddy, my friend says that we need more. I don't think it is realistic to do an elliptical. I just want to see my grandkids grow up, and not die early because I have abused the Lord's temple. I have returned one notch on my belt. I have a way to go and we can do it. I am only walking regularly and fasting one or two days a week. I count mowing my overgrown big lawn as a walking day too. I am looking for some reasonable way to start with the goal of feeling like Teddy and my friend do...after 70. I know God gave us bodies that endure a lot of mistreatment, and have amazing recuperative responses as well. I think I need to add some form of resistance training like Teddy said. Let us begin by being encouraged. Not waiting, figuring out the right way to start to add what's needed to what we are already doing. I don't recommend the 36 hour Friday or Wednesday fasts that I try to practice, unless you know how to break that long fast. But the benefit is great. I chose those days as a Catholic because they have become a custom over the centuries, as it corresponds with the betrayal of our Lord on Wednesday and His Passion on Friday. We can offer up our fasts to the Lord as a spiritual penance as well as pleasing Him with taking regard for "our body" which he gives to us as "His temple" to glorify Him. But Catholics should not fast unless we feast! After 1st Vespers for Sunday around five, Saturday evening, we can enjoy a special beverage, and on Sunday as well, with our best healthy feast of the week. With a freely chosen resolution, we can rejoice in every waking hour of the next week as we do our physical and spiritual exercises, which support each other. We are encouraged by our knowledge that if we keep our resolutions until the Vigil on Saturday, we will rejoice more than ever as we restfully enjoy the Sunday feast, the Day of the Lord. The above is my ideal. I don't always make it. Pray for me, Tony. We can help each other! God bless. Rory

Excellent webbles! Thanks.

I have already replied to the first paragraph, and leave it now for context. Maybe someone else that is LDS might want to try to answer the second paragraph for BlipBlap? The Catholics here have obviously gotten off on the wrong foot with this person. Maybe she/he would listen if it was explained by a non-Catholic at least, or better, a Latter-day Saint. I might suggest that you look up the meaning of consubstantial according to Catholic theology. Then go to the Vatican web page for the Council of Chalcedon and find what it says about who Jesus is consubstantial with. Combine that with what Catholics mean by the hypostatic union and there is our answer. It doesn't prove anything against the LDS position. It just shows that we are consistent with our own beliefs, contrary to what BlipBlap wants to think. No obligations obviously! I have never seen anything like this around here. In a way it has been fun, but it also brings out the worst in me. I waited almost a week before an earlier post to BlipBlap because my opinion of her/him was so negative that I could feel some malice stirring. But now it is just getting distasteful. Pray for me. I have to love everybody here. I may have mentioned this before. But one of my favorite quotes from our last Council is paraphrased "Through His Incarnation, Christ has, in a certain sense, united Himself with every man." Pray that I may be true to that belief. I will reply later if anyone else expresses curiosity about anything she/he has raised. But I will consider myself relieved from any further fruitless interaction with BlipBlap, for the sake of my own soul. I am sorry BlipBlap. I should have more love and patience. I truly wish you every grace and heavenly blessing in this world and in the next. I do. God make us be friends in heaven. God love you. Rory McKenzie

At our parish, we try to have adoration of the Blessed Sacrament 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. This means that someone volunteers to keep our Savior company as He shows Himself in His chapel under the appearance of consecrated bread for each of the 168 hours of every week. I think most of us do it once a week. That is what I do. My hour is 3:00 every Wednesday morning. It seems like the least I can do as a retired guy who can grab a nap any time almost every day. One main idea behind this practice is to remember how it seemed like Jesus desired fellow company with some of His Apostles during His agony in the Garden. The Heart of Jesus is unfathomable. He doesn't need us...and yet He expresses these desires for us. Before the Last Supper, wherein Catholics believe that Christ celebrates the first Mass He says, "With desire I have desired..." What? I guess that means He wants to do this thing with an intensity that we might find hard to relate to? "...to eat this Passover with you before I suffer." (Luke 22:15) This is why the Mass is also named the Paschal (Passover) Mystery. The time went so quickly this morning. I could not get over the idea of God who creates out of nothing is about six feet away, out in the open, easy to see. The same eternal God has been waiting for me this morning in this humble manner, so unimposing? There is a natural doubt that man can attain to a union with a Being so far above us. I understand the appeal of God being a man. But I also understand the appeal of God being infinitely more. The Incarnation of Christ gives us both. One author puts it this way speaking of Christ assuming our nature: "...it strengthens our hope all the more since it brings the excellence of our nature home to our consciousness, and shows us that we, elevated as we are above all creatures, can and ought to achieve perfect happiness in closest union with God." ---The Mysteries of Christianity, Matthias Scheeben, B. Herder Book Co., St. Louis, MO (1947), p.417 Sometimes my differences of opinion with my LDS friends can make me ponder delightful beliefs, as happened this morning in pondering over again some of the beliefs that we agree upon and those we don't. At the end of my hour, I was thinking about how different it might be if mfb were here. I might be frustrated, but I miss him very much. I hope Mark is okay. He made me think so much harder than I ever would have without his opposition to my transcendent God. I would be happy if he could poke his head in here, and offer his misgivings...and then I would probably get angry! Heh. May the good Lord bless our absent, but well remembered friend/adversary Mark Bukowski, and may God draw him to his His loving heart, even if God created ex nihilo. Yeah, I know Mark, it doesn't make sense unless God has a heart. (I am speak anthropomorphically. Of course. That is the only way we know how to express ourselves, and that is why God speaks to us that way too, Mark!) Sorry for taking the last word, my friend. I know you would have more to say.

Okay. Much appreciated.