3DOP

The dating of books seems irrelevant if Christ isn't risen from the dead. To be more clear, I was saying that if Christ was NOT resurrected, regardless of the dating of Acts and John's Gospel, the events described would not have taken place either. The post-resurrection experiences described in Acts and John's Gospel were lies, regardless of who wrote them and when, if Christ was not resurrected. Am in disagreement with you?

Hey Pyreaux. I had not heard of the "true myth"! It sounds like an appealing idea. Thanks for sharing. I am such a modern westerner. A myth is necessarily deceptive? I have to be a wee bit hesitant with the Gospel of Philip and gnostic thought. My God likes matter. The physical world is no error. Catholics are not in favor of celibacy because the body is bad, or the marital bed is bad, but because they are good, and therefore a worthy sacrifice, but only for those who might be called to it. Fasting which you guys practice too, is the same. Physical food is good and necessary, but self denial in this area is a good sacrifice. Rom 12: 1, 2 tells us to offer our bodies (physical?), a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. Catholics can't be dualistic about matter and spirit. Both are good.

Hi Mr. Shorty. THAT is an excellent way to approach the question of possible "pious fiction". I am bound as a Catholic to certain norms of belief about the Scriptures and you would probably have more wiggle room than me. The main new (to me) truth about the Scriptures which we have to assert as historically precise, historically hyperbolic, or pious fiction must be resolved by Catholics according to principles to which other Christians are not bound but which I find to be advantageous for explaining what we might consider to be "irregularities" in the Scripture by Christian standards. Some common irregularities are often cited by critics of Scripture and faith. They include vindictive Psalms and canticles, approval of slavery, and apparent instructions to leaders among the Patriarchs of Israel to wipe out entire populations with children, women, and sometimes even animals. Mr. Shorty, these have been "problems" for me of late, but never so much so as to make me able to plausibly deny the Resurrection of Christ. If you and others can follow a long passage from the Vatican II document on Divine Revelation called Dei Verbum, I will try to illustrate how it has helped me to be more confident that I can still insist on the sacredness and inspiration of the entire canon of Catholic Scriptures. There are 73 books, of which we share 66 with the LDS. The most important principle for me is found in a section about the Old Testament: 14. In carefully planning and preparing the salvation of the whole human race the God of infinite love, by a special dispensation, chose for Himself a people to whom He would entrust His promises. First He entered into a covenant with Abraham (see Gen. 15:18) and, through Moses, with the people of Israel (see Ex. 24:8). To this people which He had acquired for Himself, He so manifested Himself through words and deeds as the one true and living God that Israel came to know by experience the ways of God with men. Then too, when God Himself spoke to them through the mouth of the prophets, Israel daily gained a deeper and clearer understanding of His ways and made them more widely known among the nations (see Ps. 21:29; 95:1-3; Is. 2:1-5; Jer. 3:17). The plan of salvation foretold by the sacred authors, recounted and explained by them, is found as the true word of God in the books of the Old Testament: these books, therefore, written under divine inspiration, remain permanently valuable. "For all that was written for our instruction, so that by steadfastness and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope" (Rom. 15:4). 15. The principal purpose to which the plan of the old covenant was directed was to prepare for the coming of Christ, the redeemer of all and of the messianic kingdom, to announce this coming by prophecy (see Luke 24:44; John 5:39; 1 Peter 1:10), and to indicate its meaning through various types (see 1 Cor. 10:12). Now the books of the Old Testament, in accordance with the state of mankind before the time of salvation established by Christ, reveal to all men the knowledge of God and of man and the ways in which God, just and merciful, deals with men. These books, though they also contain some things which are incomplete and temporary, nevertheless show us true divine pedagogy. (1) These same books, then, give expression to a lively sense of God, contain a store of sublime teachings about God, sound wisdom about human life, and a wonderful treasury of prayers, and in them the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way. Christians should receive them with reverence. call 16. God, the inspirer and author of both Testaments, wisely arranged that the New Testament be hidden in the Old and the Old be made manifest in the New. (2) For, though Christ established the new covenant in His blood (see Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25), still the books of the Old Testament with all their parts, caught up into the proclamation of the Gospel, (3) acquire and show forth their full meaning in the New Testament (see Matt. 5:17; Luke 24:27; Rom. 16:25-26; 2 Cor. 14:16) and in turn shed light on it and explain it. ---Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, Dei Verbum, Solemnly Promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI on November 18, 1965, paragraphs 14-16. As I understand it, the divine pedagogy emphasizes how God in history leads mankind gradually to the fullness of revelation until we are privileged to know Him face to face in yet another era from the one we now enjoy. It is clear even from the New Testament that God permitted certain activities before which He once "winked at" (Acts 17:30). We only need to remember how Christ explained divorce as being allowed from the times of Moses, before it was a sacrament (according to the Catholic Church), because of "hardness of hearts" and that Jesus is returning us to the strict monogamy of Adam and Eve. I think we have to admit that polygamy, while not lauded, was tolerated during the pre-Christian period. The divine pedagogy is the reason why in a different post, I mentioned that passage in the Gospel where Jesus says that we have heard that we should love our neighbors and hate our enemies. But He (Christ) is bringing an updated calling to love and charity for all. Where in the Psalms one can sometimes read of curses directed towards true enemies, one hears Christ and St. Stephen the proto-martyr, to "forgive them, for they know not what they do." I cannot say I have resolved every "problem". But I am convinced that we have a key through recognizing a divine pedagogy for understanding why behaviors under the Old Law that we find questionable today, should not be cause for any faith crisis. These "problems" occurred during a period of relative ignorance, which God "winked at", according to the New Testament itself. Finally Mr. Shorty, this is why I recommend your approach to "pious fiction" and the Resurrection of Christ as the critically important question to resolve regarding literal salvation history. Of course, someone could object, God could have revealed everything to Moses all at once. That is true. I can think of reasons why it is fitting to teach mankind step by step in the way it has unfolded. But this is already a long post, and I have at least one more to make. I am content for God's wisdom to be fully illustrated at the Last Judgment.

Yes indeed Tony. I mention those ideas here in my post to bluebell! Heh. I still haven't answered calm's question which I am saving for last. But isn't it great that we all seem to agree so far? Doesn't it make us want to go to church together? It does me! Alas though, my post to calm will undo the practicality of my sentimental vision of unity. For now. May we never despair of that desire, for which you prayed, Lord. (Jn. 17:11)

You allow for the utility, or necessity (?), of belief in both, as do I. Without beliefs about Christ, we would be experiencing a never ending Lent. We need triumph over death and the grave. We need rejoicing after sorrow. We need the hope of our own resurrections tomorrow in heaven. Without Christ's teaching we have no sense of moral elevation here and now, a change in our universe when we hear Him say, "You have heard it said, Love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say to you to love your enemy." Thanks for that reminder. But what devout young person could be motivated to learning another language and giving up two years of their early 20's to go to a foreign land hoping they will be able to find someone willing to be baptized in the name of this dead man? Jesus claimed to have all authority in heaven and on earth post-resurrection. I don't see the Roman authorities perceiving any threat to the Empire by the introduction of a cult directed to an unresurrected Jewish carpenter. Much less do I see a church being built on the foundation of Apostles and martyrs willing to die for such a cause.

There are many reasons why I agree. Instead of the resurrected Christ entering a house on Easter evening through closed doors where the disciples had huddled in fear, no one would have come. Here is John's recollection about what Jesus said: "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. And when he said this he breathed on them, and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit." ---John 20:21, 22 Without this experience, I see the disciples' fearfulness subsiding fairly quickly. They would have lacked a sense of mission, of being sent by God to preach to the world. In seven weeks, instead of praying together for the Advocate to come ten days after seeing Jesus Ascension (which would not have happened either), for the coming of the Holy Spirit, they probably would have already begun to go their separate ways. They could not have any guilt about failure to carry a message of Christ's resurrection into the world. I think it would be normal to feel a sense of relief perhaps. They certainly shared some extraordinary years. Maybe they would have had a "class reunion" every so often?

I asked calm about the possibility of the Book of Mormon being ahistorical in a different thread. I wondered if it could be acceptable as what I called "inspired fiction". As a Catholic, I would suggest there is latitude as to historicity in canonical texts while maintaining that the entire canon as well as the "pious fiction" is inspired Scripture. I gave the example of Jonah. It would be miraculous, and I do not say it wasn't miraculous. But I do say it doesn't have to be a miracle story to have great value, and belong in the Catholic Bible. When calm asks if I "feel that way about the resurrection" I understand her to be referring back to my comment about the book of Jonah. I would add that Jesus did refer to Jonah in connection with His resurrection. It could be argued that if Jonah is ahistorical, but teaches a good message, so likewise it could be that way with Jesus. calm Do you feel that way about the resurrection? That it would still have sufficient value to remain Christian even if there was no resurrected Christ, but perhaps a divine being who taught humans valuable lessons using such inspired stories? About not just the stories of Christ’s life where he taught and healed, but that he was God who became flesh, lived and died and rose of Christ again? That such would still have great value as inspired pious fiction? If so, what is there for you in Catholic belief that must be relatively close to how it’s taught in order to have not just moral value (teaching principles), but salvation for those who participate in it? That must be true as taught in order for you to remain Catholic? I hope this doesn’t come across as challenging or disrespecting your faith, you just made me curious about how you look at your faith in this way given what you said. Rory Challenging is good, cal. In over a quarter of a century of interaction in various places, I have never noted that you have ever been disrespectful to anyone, and certainly not me. (I think you scolded me once. I can't remember what it was about. Hopefully I have changed my ways!) ----- To anyone interested...feel free to share your ideas, and of course I intend to be adding mine, but not yet.

Oh cal, you would never be disrespectful of my faith. I would like to answer your questions in another thread. This thread seems very academic (over my head) and a side conversation that is not directly associated might become distracting. Some time this week, I would hope.

Hey calm, thanks for your reply. I would only say that when I suggested "pious fiction", I meant inspired pious fiction. Scripture. I doubt the Jonah story as history. But there are good lessons from the tale. Maybe it IS historical. I tend to THINK it is historical. But either way I have faith that it is Scripture. I thought maybe you all could go that way with the Book of Mormon.

This thread seems to hinge on the notion that the Book of Mormon is necessarily a work of actual history. What if it is more fittingly in the genre of true, but pious fiction? Are the parties here agreed that if the Book of Mormon is ahistorical, that the CoJCoLDS is false? I am a Catholic as most here know. I have been around for a lot of years now mainly to defend my Church against Apostasy theory. I am thinking that most LDS here would not go to any other "church" if they become unbelievers in LDS claims. It seems like, above all, Mormons are thoroughly materialistic. NO substance is immaterial. I wish that I could help Mormons who begin to doubt LDS claims would also question the arguably false metaphysics they have assumed. Analytics, hi. I find your method to be fair and honorable. I don't want to derail here. We should all just want to identify the best explanation for the "Jesus Event". Maybe that should come after this examination? Just wanting to feel relevant here and friendly to all. Happy Easter Monday. Carry on. Rory

Hi Tony, good point about non religious images. I think it is a healthy human instinct to make images of those for whom we love or have deep respect. Imagery isn't good if one's imagination is imagining that the image IS God, or Lincoln or Wellington. But we Catholics even kneel before our images. Sometimes through misunderstanding, Catholics have been accused of replacing God with an image. It is a human trait to have trouble concentrating our imaginations. It takes a lot of discipline which I lack. In the Gospel, we are told that Mary pondered certain events in her heart. It CAN be done without physical images. But must it be? Are we in danger of idolatry if we need visual aids to tame our wild imaginations? There is no question in my mind that images must be used as aids to our meditations. Of course, like Mary, we can limit our images to our own interior imagination without outside help, especially if we fear offending God by the use of an artist's representation. The main thing is to develop a deeper penetration into the meaning of an event.

In one of the readings from "the Office" (not Jim and Pam, or Michael, heh) for Palm Sunday we see the familiar prophetic words of Jesus Christ, "When I am lifted up, I will draw all men unto myself." I was meditating on these words a little while gazing at a Crucifix that hangs in our bedroom. It came to mind that this image over my wife's dresser demonstrates why it was necessary for the Lord to suffer as He did, and not only to achieve redemption for our souls. We certainly need forgiveness of sins. I hold that the Cross of Christ is a fathomless mystery, which perhaps no one has fully realized in its depth. Through our imaginations, faithful Christians continually try to realize more profoundly the gift that Jesus gives us on Calvary. He draws all men to Himself. He doesn't force His divine love upon us. Rather He shows it to us, when we picture Him suffering in body, when we hear Him repeat His dying words, when we see the centurion thrust His spear into the side of our dead Savior. When men and women, young and old, have imagined the horrid but sacred scene they have run to this Savior, of their own free will, and offered Him their spirits and souls and bodies for 2,000 years on every continent and in every nation. He draws us to Himself. I am aware that there is a bit of a taboo in some Christian circles against the making of religious art that shows our Lord on a Cross. Perhaps LDS lead the way in this era of time, but they didn't arrive at the conclusion without precedent. Reforming Protestants also disdained the practice centuries before Joseph Smith. Before that there was the iconoclastic movement in the Middle Ages, mostly limited to Eastern Christianity, which was exposed to ideas gained from devout Muslim neighbors. This is not a history lesson. It is try to understand and have sympathy with those who do not like a Crucifix, a rude, garish symbol hanging prominently in Catholic churches, and privately in Catholic homes. I am not suggesting to the Muslim, Protestant Reformer, or Latter-day Saint that they need to start hanging up crucifixes. But I am suggesting that whether one of these should use a physical image such as a crucifix to help them picture the scene at Calvary, or merely use their imaginations to see the event where Christ triumphs over sin and death, that we need to see it in our minds, with or without using our physical vision. However far we may have advanced in our love for God the Father and His Blessed Son, we will always be drawn to a greater love for the Lord Jesus Christ by taking time, and making a point to purposely imagine again what Jesus did for us to make our Easter resurrection and His, a reality of history that shall never fade away. May there be a Blessed Palm Sunday and holy week of preparation for us all. May we be more ready than ever to race to Him, in the glory of His Resurrection, with hearts bursting with love and joy in seven days. May we always be more and more profoundly drawn to Him, using the method He left for us. Rory

Hi manol, It wasn't until 1870 that the First Vatican Council, defined the doctrine of papal infallibility. The pope when acting alone, is almost always fallible. There were some faithful observers of the Council who believed the teaching, but feared that as it was explained, would be misunderstood by non-Catholics and Catholics alike. Sure enough. They had that right!

Just for the record, informed Catholics are aware that in 2,000 years there have been only two times when a pope has certainly spoken infallibly. And even the declaration in 1950 for the Assumption wasn't made until after consultation with the world's bishops. It is much more often that the Catholic Church speaks infallibly through the joint unanimity of the pope and bishops in an ecumenical council.

Jesse! I had been following and thinking how I needed to close the thread by making a post about what times and seasons are about liturgically and catechetically (word?). Heh. I am glad to see you. Still in the Southwest? Teaching? I retired almost a year ago.

Okay, so we get to deduct the gifts we give from our tithing? Brilliant. Who would have thought? This is great news. So in effect, our gifts ARE tithing? That helps, with like 40 children, grandchildren, godchildren, in-laws, and random gifts we have tithed a lot more than we should have over the years. Now the Church owes me! I am probably good for the next twenty years! TitheDOP, who is kidding, but who when very young tithed on gifts received without considering gifts given. The things you do at 29, you just shake your head at that kid 40 years later. We were broke, so friends would do free mechanic work on my car. Of course we tithed 10% of what it would have cost at a shop. Doesn’t everybody?

Is it true that if I become LDS I need to add up an estimated value to the gifts I receive for Christmas and tithe on that? If yes, I suppose I would also need to tithe on the cost of shipping? Heh. TitheDOP

Hi again InCog. Thanks. I appreciate your reluctance to make firm assertions. Me too. But we are permitted to speculate where revelation is limited to propose plausible scenarios that seem compatible with what we have been given. I think maybe I should take some time off before I offer further speculations on a third question you had asked above about Pope John Paul's Theology of the Body. About speculation. We learn gradually, and especially by corporately pondering and investigating mysteries whether they are mysteries of creation or mysteries of God. God made us this way, and I speculate that it honors and pleases God if when we have faith in Him and His Word of truth, that we are not content without exploring His mysteries to unlock new truths only to discover new mysteries. A delight to be a small part of the exercise. We are made to be speculators! The only problem is that we sometimes have speculations that are not well thought out. Heh. That is why I want to wait a little before I make my speculations public Regards, 3

Hi CV. Do you think it is likely that most of your fellow LDS here, see enough similarity in Catholic ideas on eternal family and heaven to view it in a favorable way if it were true? I would like to believe that. Of course LDS can not believe that the Catholic teaching is true. I am not suggesting that LDS could believe our teaching is true. But I have been trying to demonstrate that it might not be as unappealing as perhaps many think. If you guys feel the teaching as understood is unappealing to the heart, I thought I might be able to explain it in a better light. That is why I ask you and your fellows here the question I pose above. Maybe that is where I should have started instead of assuming that there is an underlying antipathy to overcome? What do you all think? Rory

Hi InCognitus. For context, I will provide something I wrote on the Protestant Apologetics thread to provide the interpretation Pope John Paul II gave: Pope John Paul II, adhering to the ancient teaching of the Church, appeals to Holy Scripture for his authority in affirming that with the Resurrection of the Body, each of us retains the same gender that they had on earth, with the meaning we can learn from the differences and compatibility of the sexes: "When they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage." (Mk 12:25) Those of course are Christ's words to the Sadducees who denied the Resurrection and knew it would be absurd for a woman's seven legitimate husbands to be wife to all of them in any Resurrection. Which is to be the husband? Clearly, none of them. The pope goes on to explain: These words have a key meaning for the theology of the body...All three synoptic Gospels report the same statement, except that Luke's version is different in some details from Matthew and Mark. Essential for them all is the fact that, in the future resurrection human beings, after having reacquired their bodies in the fullness of the perfection characteristic of the image and likeness of God - after having reacquired them in their masculinity and femininity - neither marry nor are given in marriage. In the next paragraph he succinctly states the teaching of the Gospels: As can be seen from these words, marriage, that union in which, according to Genesis, "A man cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh" (2:24) - the union characteristic right from the beginning - belongs exclusively to this age. Marriage and procreation, do not constitute on the other hand, the eschatological future of man. ---The Theology of the Body, Human Love in the Divine Plan, Pope John Paul II, Daughters of St. Paul, Boston MA, 1997, p. 238 (bold mine) I have a comment and a few questions for you if you don't mind: I cannot argue against your position from those words of the Gospels alone. My tradition obviously helps inform my interpretation. I think my position is only plausible from the Scriptures alone. I think I have to agree with you about its not being "black and white" from the Scriptures alone. 1) I often say that the Scriptures alone are ordinarily inadequate to resolve doctrinal controversy because they are subject to multiple interpretations. Do we agree on that? 2) If I understood you correctly...Nobody gets married in what you call the Celestial Kingdom and I call heaven. I think we agree on that? 3) What about procreation? Continuing or ceasing? Thanks IC! Rory

I am sure you are right about what your church teaches CV75. I had thought that there was some clearing up to be done about what my Church teaches. Undoubtedly, each us will tend to like best what our own church teaches. I am trying to illustrate that our beliefs have some significant parallels with yours. Is yours better to you? Of course. But maybe ours is not as bad as perhaps some LDS have thought?

Marriage will continue in Heaven, but not in the way it is foreshadowed before the resurrection of the body. Right or wrong, Silin taught Solzhenitsyn (A.S.) that conjugal love is a manifestation of something else! "...a lofty aspiration to Union". A.S. capitalized the word Union, signifying a still greater union than Holy Matrimony. If he is right he is referring to nothing less than deification, to become partakers of a nature that makes us one in Love with Christ and His Father and the Holy Spirit. And one in love with all the Children of the Father, and of course not excluding their families and friends. It is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which is symbolized in what we call Sacramental Marriage. You will recall the unusual reply Jesus gave to some disciples who approached Him while He was with the multitude: And one said unto him: Behold thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking thee. But he answering him that told him, said: Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren. For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother. ---Mt. 12:47-50 The Unifying Marriage takes place after the Judgment. At this time the happy citizens of that glorious city of God will for the first time have intimate knowledge of how each of his "brothers, and sisters, and mothers", did the will of Jesus' Father, and helped to advance the salvation of all through the acts of charity that they performed. Those souls will love each other in the unity of Christ. Everyone will also know every little thing that we (I hope) did for the kingdom of God. If all we did was clean up a mess in the bathroom of the church, not wanting a potential "brother, sister, or mother" to be scandalized, that little act of charity will be remembered. The ripple effects of every act of charity through the centuries will be honored, and God will exalt the humble. And though they will shine like stars, with some brighter than others, no one will be dissatisfied in the One Family of God. I think we will be forever delighted in all of the Saints, each in their unique way, depending on when they lived, and what they did, but each of them our "brother, sister, and mother". We could never exclude our earthly family members, who are also our spiritual mothers, and sisters, and brothers. I am in Grandpa mode and won't see half of the grand kids lives. But they will know if he loved them and prayed for them every day as he should. Of course, I am not saying that LDS believe the same thing, but we aren't as far off as might appear at first glance. I support and honor your desires and expectations for eternal families. We are not made to find our satisfaction in ourselves alone, or even with God alone. He wants us to be a family, modeled after the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We are invited to share in that eternal intimacy. Who could believe such a wonderful thing? None of us except by faith. It would be great if we could be that kind of family here below. It is that which I pray for in my efforts to make my beliefs understood to the LDS and others here. Without forgetting our differences, let us become closer by discerning if we have similar hearts, even when our minds are apart. After all of these years, I cannot fail to see grace in the words that are spoken here by many LDS and others who I admire. We should hope to admire each other. But alas, for the times, (our present distress, eh, InCog? Heh.) there sometimes lingers other and less worthy desires to which none of us are immune. Thanks InCog, I will try to get to the other two questions if time allows. Regards, Rory

I had pretty much decided to discontinue the discussion on marriage in heaven, even though I had been asked to start a new thread. If you haven't followed, there have been discussions that took place on at least two threads. I had been hoping to kind of pull everything together. But it seemed too hard and time consuming. 1) I want to be on record for commending the LDS teaching on eternal marriage and families. If I correctly understand the teaching of my church (Roman Catholic), we concur that the citizens in heaven will experience the greatest joys of family unity while retaining their genders. 2) I also hold that the Scriptures teach that after the resurrection of the body, that it is revealed in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, that marriage and procreation are for this age only. 3) I reconcile points 1 and 2 by affirming the teaching of Pope John Paul II called the Theology of the Body. In that work he repeatedly refers to the nuptial meaning of our bodies. I can't write a book. But I had even made myself comfortable with abandoning the idea of starting a little thread here. That was until I came across the subject in a most unexpected place. A Soviet prison camp. Popularly known as the Gulag Archipelago, a history and literary work of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn that recalls the prison camp system which was populated by political prisoners who had often been guilty of nothing more than being captured by Germans in World War II. Not everyone fit this category of prisoner. Solzhenitsyn himself was "guilty" of corresponding with a friend and expressing doubt about Comrade Stalin's leadership. After the fall of Germany, and the liberation of Russian prisoners from German camps, instead of having a heroes welcome, they were usually treated as traitors. It is over-simplification, but there was fear that while in the camps of the west they had imbibed anti-Soviet ideas. In at least one case it was true that anti-Soviet ideas had been conceived by a prisoner in a German camp. In his Gulag Archipelago, Solzhenitsyn recalls his friendship with Anatoly Vasilyevich Silin. Born around 1910, Silin had been an orphan, raised as an atheist in a children's home, and was fighting against the Nazis, like all good Soviet citizens. But after being captured by the Germans, while imprisoned he had come across some religious literature for the first time, and was reportedly carried away, and converted to Christianity. When Solzhenitsyn knew him, it appears that he had never even had the freedom to visit a church. I am afraid we do not know if he ever survived the prison system. Here is what we read about him and marriage in a biography of Solzhenitsyn by Joseph Pearce: Since he had spent the entire period since his conversion in prisons of one sort or another he had never had the benefit of further spiritual reading. Instead he gleaned the truth through his own perceptions, expressed in verse. According to Solzhenitsyn, Silin knew some twenty thousand lines of verse by heart at the time they met, reciting many of them to his younger fellow poet. Like Solzhenitsyn, Silin looked upon his verse as a 'way of remembering and of transmitting thoughts'. For the Gulag Archipelago, Solzhenitsyn gleaned a few precious memories of their time together in the camp. He recalled Silin bending over one of the rare blades of grass growing in the barren camp. 'How beautiful are the grasses of the earth,' he exclaimed. 'But even these the Creator has given to man for a carpet under his feet. How much more beautiful, then, must we be than they!' I wanted to share that, and this: Silin's theological mysticism was distinctly unpuritanical, and he asserted to Solzhenitsyn that 'even earthly, carnal love is a manifestation of a lofty aspiration to Union'. ---Solzhenitsyn, A Soul in Exile, by Joseph Pearce, Baker Books (2001), p. 121, (bold mine) I will try to explain how I understand Silin if there is any interest. If not, I hope you find the little look inside the prisons inspiring.

Its okay ZealouslyStriving. Next time I will try to remember to wait until my wrath subsides, hopefully before nightfall.🤪

On the contrary, if this is a question that is unsettled for Catholics, I have nothing to say except that I apologize for my haste, and retract my comments on the subject. I didn't want to start a new thread anyway. On the other hand, I was quoting authentic teaching from a canonized Pope St. John Paul II. What level of ecclesiastical authority was being cited by those Catholics at New Oxford Review who disagree with the pope? Did they quote papal bulls or encyclicals, doctors of the Church, church fathers, ecumenical councils, bishop's conferences, etc.? How do they explain the question the Sadducees asked of Jesus about people who are married multiple times? To which will they be married in heaven? Catholics are free to marry again after the death of a spouse. The question must be answered. I am not sure, but I think LDS can only marry one spouse "for time and eternity"? How would a Catholic deal with that? Articles in a respected periodical like New Oxford Review are only slightly more weighty than letters to the editor. I have a feeling that this "Hold on let's explore this" crowd are well-meaning people, perhaps widows and widowers happily married once for many years. Maybe they are kids remembering their good parents? Perhaps the Church can be blamed for failing to teach them about how marriage is a sacramental symbol of the marriage that will be perfected in Heaven between Christ and His Church, where all will be family as sons and daughters of the Father? I suspect that these are fine people whose understandable sentimentalism about the subject is misplaced. But my main point is still valid even if I have to retract what I mistakenly wrote. Either way my main point was that we are in much more agreement with LDS than a lot of people seem to think.