Bernard Gui Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 (edited) On 6/10/2019 at 12:52 PM, SettingDogStar said: I think there is a good point in there. However I would counter with the fact that Joseph openly published it in the newspaper at the time (Times and Seasons right?). It's canonized scripture and should be treated just as equally along side our other scriptures. Though it is often forgotten or pushed to the side because the word "Kolob" is in it and that has become somewhat of either a joke or a swear word in the church haha I think Kolob is one of the greatest things ever...if the Father and Son are truly resurrected beings with bodies of flesh and bone, then it is reasonable to conclude they have a physical location. The implications of this are mind boggling. Edited June 15, 2019 by Bernard Gui 1 Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 (edited) On 6/13/2019 at 11:48 AM, pogi said: Where else? Revelation! The Book of Mormon is nothing more than a record of revelations. Revelation is the beginning, the means, and the end witness of all truths. No scripture would exist without revelation. The BoM's primary purpose is to act as a second witness of Christ. For that reason it is essential, but it does not trump revelation which is the ultimate witness of Christ and the primary source for the truths in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon IS revelation. There is no difference. By asking which is more important, perhaps we are being ridiculous. It is like asking which is more important, revelation or revelation? Without revelation, the Book of Mormon would be useless. We would simply turn into another fallen Book of Mormon sect because we wouldn't be able to properly interpret it. A book of revelations that was intentionally compiled and preserved to be used for specifically stated purposes. That makes it more than just a book of revelations. Edited June 15, 2019 by Bernard Gui Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: Well said. Out of curiosity, what would you say are the main doctrinal differences or clarifications the BoM makes in relation to the Bible? Also curious, when it is said that the BoM is written for our day, what do you feel the BoM provides for "our day" that the Bible doesn't? Among other things.... The purpose, significance, universality, covenant, and mode of baptism. A more comprehensive understanding of the resurrection. A fuller understanding of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The pre-mortal foundation, the significance, and the role of the Holy Priesthood after the order of the Son of God. A confirmation that Jesus organized a church in the Old World. The requirements for authority in administering the gospel. The role of the Apostles in the final judgment. The pre-mortal nature of Christ. The pre-mortal existence of man. The urgency, benefits, and significance of the Fall of Adam. The restoration of Israel and gathering of the Jews. A record of the other sheep. A promise that more records will come forth. A rationale for plural marriage. The significance of the descendants of Joseph of Egypt. The role the Lehites will play in the end times. The Lehite “land of promise” covenant also pertains to us today. Edited June 15, 2019 by Bernard Gui 2 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 6 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I think you're being a bit unfair to Snowflake's point. He didn't say there was no revelation in the Book of Mormon. Only that it doesn't provide very many new doctrines not already found in the Bible. And that's as it should be. It's the second witness of Christ. They should and do mostly contain the same teachings. But we know there are some truths it restored and clarified vs the Bible too. Our focus on the Book of Mormon is a fairly recent thing if we look at Church history. While belief in its restoration and inspired nature have always been a keystone of our faith, the early Church focused on New Testament and D&C for most doctrine. Then why was the focus on duplicating chapters? I would argue that there is a LOT in the Book of Mormon that is not in the New Testament. Also, President Benson basically rebuked the church for not treating the Book of Mormon seriously enough and pointed out the scripture in the D&C where the Lord said the whole church was under condemnation for treating the Book of Mormon lightly. We are hopefully correcting that. 1 Link to comment
Jeanne Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 To the OP...the keystone of your religion is a mess...other wise this board would cease to exist and all would be well in Zion. Link to comment
SettingDogStar Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 32 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Then why was the focus on duplicating chapters? I would argue that there is a LOT in the Book of Mormon that is not in the New Testament. Also, President Benson basically rebuked the church for not treating the Book of Mormon seriously enough and pointed out the scripture in the D&C where the Lord said the whole church was under condemnation for treating the Book of Mormon lightly. We are hopefully correcting that. Yeah he did focus only on what he said 20 chapters and then only highlighted 4 duplicated chapters. The Book of Mormon has new revelation all over it and clarifies the doctrine of the atonement and revelation better then the Bible. Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jeanne said: To the OP...the keystone of your religion is a mess...other wise this board would cease to exist and all would be well in Zion. Seriously? We wouldn’t be discussing the wonders and mysteries of the Kingdom? Edited June 16, 2019 by Bernard Gui Link to comment
changed Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 (edited) On 6/10/2019 at 11:12 AM, pogi said: It seems clear to me that the true keystone of our religion is revelation. Remove the Book of Mormon and the restoration would still have been possible with revelation. Remove revelation, and it all crumbles. Thoughts? “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood... not by an apostle, not by a book... I would think the keystone is God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.... combined with the light of Christ, our conscience, given to everyone. Not faith on a book, not faith in any arms of flesh, but personal guidance - personal light within everyone. Edited June 15, 2019 by changed Link to comment
Calm Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: what do you feel the BoM provides for "our day" that the Bible doesn't? My opinion...huge in your face examples of what selfish pride and setting oneself apart as better than others can do to a society. It shows the need for us to avoid ‘caste’ systems of any kind if in the end we want a true community. The sons of Mosiah teach us how to become one while lots of examples what not to do. Edited June 15, 2019 by Calm Link to comment
Calm Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 2 hours ago, Jeanne said: To the OP...the keystone of your religion is a mess...other wise this board would cease to exist and all would be well in Zion. Because people are never known for taking a great thing and screwing things up anyway? Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 3 hours ago, changed said: “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood... not by an apostle, not by a book... I would think the keystone is God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.... combined with the light of Christ, our conscience, given to everyone. Not faith on a book, not faith in any arms of flesh, but personal guidance - personal light within everyone. That’s Simon Peter and Jesus speaking with each other in the flesh. How would we know this if an apostle didn’t write it down and if people hadn’t preserved what was written? 2 Link to comment
changed Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: That’s Simon Peter and Jesus speaking with each other in the flesh. How would we know this if an apostle didn’t write it down and if people hadn’t preserved what was written? God has seen fit to leave most people through history without books, and without apostles. It appears, that God does not want most people to have the Bible or apostles - would rather everyone just rely on their own conscience. Link to comment
changed Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Calm said: My opinion...huge in your face examples of what selfish pride and setting oneself apart as better than others can do to a society. It shows the need for us to avoid ‘caste’ systems of any kind if in the end we want a true community. The sons of Mosiah teach us how to become one while lots of examples what not to do. How to avoid a caste system... like how to avoid giving some people temple recommends, and not giving them to others, and separating families? Like giving some people the priesthood, and not to others, and telling everyone they can only be saved by someone who holds the priesthood? Like telling people God only wants a small little flock of chosen people to live with Him in Heaven, and most people will be left in lower kingdoms for eternity? Yes - such teachings certainly can do horrible things to a society. Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, changed said: God has seen fit to leave most people through history without books, and without apostles. It appears, that God does not want most people to have the Bible or apostles - would rather everyone just rely on their own conscience. Would that be the God whose Son is Jesus Christ, or some other being? Link to comment
changed Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Would that be the God whose Son is Jesus Christ, or some other being? He is supposed to be the God of the whole world right? So - knowing the vast majority of the world through history and currently does not have access to scriptures or apostles or the priesthood - and knowing God is loving and just ... put the two together, must not be loving or just to make people learn from apostles or from books. Edited June 16, 2019 by changed Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, changed said: He is supposed to be the God of the whole world right? So - knowing the vast majority of the world through history and currently does not have access to scriptures or apostles or the priesthood - and knowing God is loving and just ... put the two together, must not be loving or just to make people learn from apostles or from books. I think it’s great that we have a God and a gospel that takes all this into consideration. Are you saying that it must be a God who is not the Father of Jesus Christ? What you are saying is not compatible with what He has revealed about himself and his Son....which is written by prophets and found in the scriptures. Edited June 16, 2019 by Bernard Gui Link to comment
Damien the Leper Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 On 6/14/2019 at 11:40 PM, 3DOP said: Valentinus...long time...good to see you... Yes, you are off base. "Patently false" is too strong. Your evidence is a little weak. Those unfamiliar with true Catholic history won't be persuaded by the survival of "Christianity". They aren't overly fond of the "Christianity" that survived to the times of the Restoration. Let me recommend a book. The Liturgical Year, Easter, Part 3, Dom Prosper Gueranger. We are in the octave of Pentecost right now. Yesterday was Friday in the Octave. Great stuff on the fecundity of the Three Persons and how the Holy Ghost does outside the Godhead what the Father and Son did inside the Godhead. I don't have time to flesh it out. I love you for the sentiments...but...sorry for the conclusion. God love you, Rory No worries. I'm willing to learn. Link to comment
esodije Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 As I recall, the whole notion of the BoM being the keystone of the LDS religion is based on what it proves or doesn’t prove about Joseph Smith’s prophetic calling. If the book is what it purports to be, we may reasonably conclude that JS was what he purported to be. And if the book is a fictional concoction based on cribbed biblical passages (viewed through a prism of 19th Century thought) and containing various historical anachronisms, we may reasonably conclude that JS was a fraud. Backing away from the BoM as a historical record, while simultaneously trying to maintain belief in the Restoration and JS’s pivotal role in it, doesn’t really work. I think the Community of Christ is proving that quite amply. Link to comment
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