Bernard Gui Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) Looks like Mormons aren't the only ones withe Temple Preparation classes. TheTemple Institute of Jerusalem has started an instruction program for young Kohanim in preparation for the Third Temple. I will post an informational YouTube video if I can clean up some of the spam links someone has attached... The Nezer HaKodesh Institute for Kohanic Studies: The World's First Institute for Training Kohanim https://www.templeinstitute.org Thoughts? Edited February 17, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1 Link to comment
CV75 Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 The guy on the left looks like he's saying, "Oy veh and for this I should miss kaverte's taylvayz..." Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Looks like Mormons aren't the only ones withe Temple Preparation classes. TheTemple Institute of Jerusalem has started an instruction program for young Kohanim in preparation for the Third Temple. I will post an informational YouTube video if I can clean up some of the spam links someone has attached... The Nezer HaKodesh Institute for Kohanic Studies: The World's First Institute for Training Kohanim https://www.templeinstitute.org .........................................Thoughts? That Institute has been in operation now for several years, and they have been assembling all available information on liturgy, sacrificial equipment & techniques, priestly clothing and regalia, etc. Something similar must have been needed 70 years after the destruction of the Solomonic Temple in 586 B.C., when the new temple went into operation (in 516 B.C.), when no living person likely remained who knew the proper temple procedures from personal experience. I assume that each priestly candidate must be examined to make certain that he is not physically deformed or flawed in some way, as well as able to prove his lineal descent as a kohen. I wouldn't even be surprised if some kohens will attempt to prove their lineal descent (in part) through a DNA test showing the presence of the Cohen Modal Haplotype, although not all kohens have that in their DNA. The ordinary Levites probably have to do something similar. The LDS Church too requires that lineal descendants of Aaron (kohens) must prove their lineage before being ordained by the First Presidency to function as bishop in an LDS ward (D&C 68:21). The LDS may even include the sons of Moses in that rule of descent, since Moses was also of the tribe of Levi (D&C 84:31-34). Edited February 17, 2017 by Robert F. Smith 2 Link to comment
strappinglad Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The LDS Church too requires that lineal descendants of Aaron (kohens) must prove their lineage before being ordained by the First Presidency to function as bishop in an LDS ward (D&C 68:21). The LDS may even include the sons of Moses in that rule of descent, since Moses was also of the tribe of Levi (D&C 84:31-34). Would a patriarchal blessing stating that lineage suffice? I have an uncle whose blessing so declares him. 1 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, strappinglad said: Would a patriarchal blessing stating that lineage suffice? I have an uncle whose blessing so declares him. Possibly. Very interesting. Link to comment
strappinglad Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 My uncle never served as a Bishop , but his eldest son did. His son had the usual counselors. 1 Link to comment
RevTestament Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Looks like Mormons aren't the only ones withe Temple Preparation classes. TheTemple Institute of Jerusalem has started an instruction program for young Kohanim in preparation for the Third Temple. I will post an informational YouTube video if I can clean up some of the spam links someone has attached... The Nezer HaKodesh Institute for Kohanic Studies: The World's First Institute for Training Kohanim https://www.templeinstitute.org Thoughts? I have my doubts whether their third temple will ever be physically built. Certainly the Lord is not going to recognize any animal sacrifices in one. I believe the prophesied temple in Ezekiel is a spiritual outline for the true temple of the Lord. I kinda feel sorry for the Jews that they still believe so strongly in the salvific power of the mosaic law, but I do believe their fairly keen understanding of the law will one day be useful for them. It is interesting to see their interpretation of appropriate dress and so forth. Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 2 hours ago, RevTestament said: I have my doubts whether their third temple will ever be physically built. Certainly the Lord is not going to recognize any animal sacrifices in one. I believe the prophesied temple in Ezekiel is a spiritual outline for the true temple of the Lord. I kinda feel sorry for the Jews that they still believe so strongly in the salvific power of the mosaic law, but I do believe their fairly keen understanding of the law will one day be useful for them. It is interesting to see their interpretation of appropriate dress and so forth. You are mistaken, Rev, and you may recall that about a month ago, Gray called your attention to this from The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Quote It will be necessary here to make a few observations on the doctrine set forth in the above quotation, and it is generally supposed that sacrifice was entirely done away when the Great Sacrifice [i.e.,] the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was offered up, and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of sacrifice in future; but those who assert this are certainly not acquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the Priesthood, or with the Prophets. The offering of sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the Priesthood. It began with the Priesthood, and will be continued until after the coming of Christ, from generation to generation. We frequently have mention made of the offering of sacrifice by the servants of the Most High in ancient days, prior to the law of Moses; which ordinances will be continued when the Priesthood is restored with all its authority, power and blessings.… All Ordinances Restored These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the Priesthood, will, when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchizedek Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by the Holy Prophets be brought to pass? It is not to be understood that the law of Moses will be established again with all its rites and variety of ceremonies; this has never been spoken of by the prophets; but those things which existed prior to Moses' day, namely, sacrifice, will be continued. It may be asked by some, what necessity for sacrifice, since the Great Sacrifice was offered? In answer to which, if repentance, baptism, and faith existed prior to the days of Christ, what necessity for them since that time? The Priesthood has descended in a regular line from father to son, through their succeeding generations. Moreover, you may want to recall also this from our friend halconero in that same thread: Quote Interestingly, the notion that sacrifice will exist in the Millennium isn't purely a notion by Joseph Smith. It's biblical and a number of other Christian denominations, some of them Evangelical, believe it as well: https://gracethrufaith.com/end-times-prophecy/animal-sacrifice-in-the-millennium-2/ https://www.gotquestions.org/millennial-sacrifices.html http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/why-sacrifices-in-millennium http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/millennial-sacrifices.html Malachi 3:1-3, "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. On orders from Joseph Smith, Apostle Orson Hyde traveled to and dedicated Palestine to the Final Gathering of the Jews: His formal 1841 dedication included not only the gathering of the Jews, but also their building of their temple in Jerusalem. Half that prophecy has already been fulfilled. The other half will be as well. We all need to read and take to heart Isaiah 2:1-3 "The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 3 Link to comment
RevTestament Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: You are mistaken, Rev, and you may recall that about a month ago, Gray called your attention to this from The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. On orders from Joseph Smith, Apostle Orson Hyde traveled to and dedicated Palestine to the Final Gathering of the Jews: His formal 1841 dedication included not only the gathering of the Jews, but also their building of their temple in Jerusalem. Half that prophecy has already been fulfilled. The other half will be as well. We all need to read and take to heart Isaiah 2:1-3 "The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. No Robert. It is you who are mistaken. Concerning the last and true temple of the Lord: Zech 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord: 13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. 14 And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the Lord. Quote Moreover, you may want to recall also this from our friend halconero in that same thread: Malachi 3:1-3, "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. I'm not sure what you think those sacrifices are referring to, but they are not animal sacrifices. The Lord made it quite clear in the Book of Mormon, that Israel was to cease animal sacrifice. They will never be reinstituted. Instead it is for them to restore and offer the sacrifices enumerated in the Torah. Zech 12: 6 ¶In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. 9 ¶And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 6 hours ago, strappinglad said: Would a patriarchal blessing stating that lineage suffice? I have an uncle whose blessing so declares him. Tell him to run for the hills. It is not a calling to aspire to! 2 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 3 hours ago, RevTestament said: No Robert. It is you who are mistaken. Concerning the last and true temple of the Lord: Zech 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord: 13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. 14 And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the Lord. I'm not sure what you think those sacrifices are referring to, but they are not animal sacrifices. The Lord made it quite clear in the Book of Mormon, that Israel was to cease animal sacrifice. They will never be reinstituted. Instead it is for them to restore and offer the sacrifices enumerated in the Torah. Zech 12: 6 ¶In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. 9 ¶And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. Your comments and citations here are not relevant to the issue we are discussing, and you are plainly rejecting the word of the Lord from Joseph Smith, and also showing your contempt for the Jews. Watch and pray, brother. You will be enlightened in the own due time of the Lord. Link to comment
RevTestament Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Your comments and citations here are not relevant to the issue we are discussing, and you are plainly rejecting the word of the Lord from Joseph Smith, and also showing your contempt for the Jews. Watch and pray, brother. You will be enlightened in the own due time of the Lord. Perhaps you would care to enlighten me Robert. I am not rejecting the word of the Lord from Joseph Smith at all. I am showing you their true interpretation in light of scripture rather than the traditional mamsy pamsy interpretation so in that sense I could claim you are rejecting the word of the Lord. Isaiah 60:7 7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. Edited February 18, 2017 by RevTestament Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, strappinglad said: Would a patriarchal blessing stating that lineage suffice? I have an uncle whose blessing so declares him. I doubt that would be proof outside of the LDS Church.. Edited February 18, 2017 by Bernard Gui Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 No comments on the movement or the contents of the video? Link to comment
strappinglad Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: No comments on the movement or the contents of the video? You do know where the 3rd temple is supposed to be built don't you ? Any fallout from groups pushing for the construction? Like there needs to be another reason for unrest in the area ! Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, strappinglad said: You do know where the 3rd temple is supposed to be built don't you ? Any fallout from groups pushing for the construction? Like there needs to be another reason for unrest in the area ! The Temple Institute's website is very informative as to their intentions. The Temple will be built when God decides it will be rebuilt. I attended a lecture by a prominent international Jewish scholar at the University of Washington a while back....can't remember his name..... In the Q&A I asked what would be needed for the temple to be rebuilt....he replied that it would not happen yet because there was no prophet to reveal the place to put the cornerstone. Quote The Temple Institute is dedicated to all aspects of the Divine commandment for Israel to build a house for G-d's presence, the Holy Temple, on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem. The range of the Institute's involvement with this concept includes education, research, activism, and actual preparation. Our goal is firstly, to restore Temple consciousness and reactivate these "forgotten" commandments. We hope that by doing our part, we can participate in the process that will lead to the Holy Temple becoming a reality once more. A new era of universal harmony Every prophet of Israel, without exception, prophesized that the Temple would be rebuilt, ushering in a new era of universal harmony and peace unparalleled in the history of man. Thus, the "movement" to rebuild the Holy Temple is not new. It was born almost 2,000 years ago, at the moment of the Second Temple's destruction. For when the Holy Temple stood in Jerusalem, it was the soul of Jewish people... and the entire world... as we believe it will be once again. The reality of the Jewish experience means that the Temple will be rebuilt. Many people who visit the Temple Institute are incredulous and cannot help but exclaim: "Do you really think that you will live to see the Holy Temple rebuilt?" The answer to that question is of little importance. Let us rather recall that Jewish history has a trajectory, which began when the patriarch Abraham smashed his father's idols. That trajectory has spanned the millennia, and it is obvious that we are rapidly approaching climactic times, in which the Holy Temple will once again become the focal point for mankind's spiritual focus. Whether this transpires in our generation or not, we can still choose to be active participants, and not simply spectators, in G-d's bold plan for the Redemption of Israel and all humanity. https://www.templeinstitute.org/statement.htm Edited February 18, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1 Link to comment
strappinglad Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Well, if we are talking anywhere up to 1000 years from now, then go ahead and prepare. If we are thinking about rebuilding the temple within the next 80 years +/- then there will have to be some major political and physical adjustments. On the other hand, it is prophesied that all nations will unite against Israel just before the Second coming. I can think of no better way for this to happen than for a major demolition taking place on the Temple Mount. Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 On 2/18/2017 at 4:13 AM, RevTestament said: Perhaps you would care to enlighten me Robert. I am not rejecting the word of the Lord from Joseph Smith at all. I am showing you their true interpretation in light of scripture rather than the traditional mamsy pamsy interpretation so in that sense I could claim you are rejecting the word of the Lord. Isaiah 60:7 7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. It would help if you could cite relevant Scripture, as I did. Then we might have a mutual understanding. Staying on point is so important. Link to comment
RevTestament Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: It would help if you could cite relevant Scripture, as I did. Then we might have a mutual understanding. Staying on point is so important. I have. Let me try to be more direct. Zech 4: 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. - Now what do you think the two golden pipes refers to? May I suggest looking at the implements in the Holy of Holies? Rev 4: 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [where is your physical altar or physical temple building Robert?] 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. - this is a resurrection event. This will usher in the completion of the sacrifice of the lamb in accordance with the Torah, and the Tanakh. I don't really have anything more I wish to add at this time... Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 9 hours ago, RevTestament said: ............................................................ - Now what do you think the two golden pipes refers to? May I suggest looking at the implements in the Holy of Holies? ....................................................... [where is your physical altar or physical temple building Robert?] ................................................ I don't really have anything more I wish to add at this time... You are confusing the end time with interim events, Rev. Moreover, you have yet to deal with the Scripture and revelations I have already cited -- to either deny their relevance or to accept them as legitimate -- and you seem unable to discuss the specific issues. In any case, you speak loosely of Torah and Tanakh, without being able to read either one in Hebrew. Link to comment
hagoth7 Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) On 02/18/2017 at 0:05 AM, mfbukowski said: Tell him to run for the hills.... ...because the hills are where many sheep are grazing..and where others are temporarily lost. One can function as a Levite bishop beyond the modern LDS paradigm. I happen to be a son of Levi (and of Joseph...). Edited February 20, 2017 by hagoth7 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 7 hours ago, hagoth7 said: ...because the hills are where many sheep are grazing..and where others are temporarily lost. One can function as a Levite bishop beyond the modern LDS paradigm. I happen to be a son of Levi (and of Joseph...). Wow dude! Get that old typewriter greased up and go for it!! I know you have some interesting ideas! That's quite a bunch of genes you have! Link to comment
RevTestament Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: You are confusing the end time with interim events, Rev. Moreover, you have yet to deal with the Scripture and revelations I have already cited -- to either deny their relevance or to accept them as legitimate -- and you seem unable to discuss the specific issues. In any case, you speak loosely of Torah and Tanakh, without being able to read either one in Hebrew. Robert, do I sense a dig? You read Hebrew and yet don't seem to fully understand the scriptures - how does that help anything? No, these events are not "end time." May I refer you to the beginning of the 7th thousand years ie the millenium in Revelation 5-11? As each of the 7 angels sound the millennium progresses. These events are in our immediate future - not at the very end. I am not saying that the Levites won't build a LDS temple at some point in the future. I am saying there won't be a "Jewish" temple built(ie the Ezekiel temple is not a physical one) and there will not be a restoration of animal sacrifice. It is amazing to me how the Gentiles of the court of the Gentiles just don't see this even when shown. I have no problem with the scriptures you cite. I believe them completely. Cheers Link to comment
notHagoth7 Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Wow dude! Get that old typewriter greased up and go for it!! I know you have some interesting ideas! That's quite a bunch of genes you have! ? What is it that you feel needs to be written? My most pressing writing project is one whose aim is to reunite the sons of Abraham...with the intent to end most/much of the endless enmity/distrust/bickering between Christian, Jewish, and Muslim peoples. A bridge, if you will. Remains to be seen how many opt to cross. (And as to your comment about my heritage/genes, tens of thousands of men, women, and children share similar genes.) Everybody, everywhere has a fascinating family history. Because everyone is a child of God. Can't wait for the family reunion. Edited February 20, 2017 by notHagoth7 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 51 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Robert, do I sense a dig? You read Hebrew and yet don't seem to fully understand the scriptures - how does that help anything? No, these events are not "end time." May I refer you to the beginning of the 7th thousand years ie the millenium in Revelation 5-11? As each of the 7 angels sound the millennium progresses. These events are in our immediate future - not at the very end. I am not saying that the Levites won't build a LDS temple at some point in the future. I am saying there won't be a "Jewish" temple built(ie the Ezekiel temple is not a physical one) and there will not be a restoration of animal sacrifice. It is amazing to me how the Gentiles of the court of the Gentiles just don't see this even when shown. I have no problem with the scriptures you cite. I believe them completely. Cheers If that is true, then why did you cite end-time prophecies, instead of interim prophecy (as I did)? Why then do you call Joseph Smith and Orson Hyde liars in their claim that the Jews will in fact build a real temple? At which there will be real blood sacrifice by the Levites? Instead, you cited Scripture not related to those events, and not dispositive. A real conversation involves give and take, with real responses to specifics. You seem incapable of that. Why? Why would I have any reason to believe you when you say that "I have no problem with the scriptures you cite. I believe them completely"? Everything you say tells me the opposite. Link to comment
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