Stone Box

[Palerider]

The straw-man Wikipedia entry is false. The LDS Church did not give any money to the NWAF in order to prove the Book of Mormon true. In fact, before giving any funds, the LDS Church required that formal documents be signed making it clear that they would fund standard archeology without any reference to the Book of Mormon. The NWAF always followed that requirement and never conducted any Book of Mormon research of any kind. Indeed, most of the professional archeologists leading excavations funded by the NWAF were non-Mormon archeologists of note. During the time that the NWAF has been in existence, including its ties with BYU, it has been the foremost excavator in Mesoamerica, and its professional reports are highly regarded worldwide.

As for Tom Ferguson, he was a California lawyer with no training or experience in archeology (and no stomach for it either). His 1975 contribution to the Written Symposium (in which I was a participant) was a 29-page pastiche of cut & paste nonsense which would have garnered an "F" in freshman English class. He embarrassed himself. He did not organize or publish that Symposium. In other comments made by him, it seems clear that his denouement came with his loss of faith in the Book of Abraham -- via misinformation.

Anyone wanting to know how Mesoamerican archeology and the Book of Mormon stack up in comparison will need to read Prof. John L. Sorenson's forthcoming magnum opus, Mormon's Codex (Deseret, Aug 2013). Sorenson was there with Ferguson in Mesoamerica before the founding of the NWAF.

I'm more than willing to accept your information as fairly accurate, but it raises as many questions as it answers.

According to a book written by Stan Larson (Quest for the Gold Plates:Thomas Ferguson's archeaological search for the Book of Mormon) a close friend of Thomas Ferguson's, the church wanted no one to know they might be looking for evidence.

According to a review:

"A lawyer by profession, Ferguson was a man whose ability and passion for defending the BOM attracted notice. J. Willard Marriot became his wealthy patron and apostle John A. Widtsoe his mentor. In 1952 Ferguson single-handedly founded the New World Archaeological Foundation (NWAF), with the vision of doing academically credible archaeological research in Central America to prove the BOM. Initially, his requests to the First Presidency of the LDS church for funding were rebuffed, despite his strong contacts through the likes of Widtsoe and Hunter. After limping along with private funding for the first year, NWAF got $15,000 from the First Presidency in 1953, but with the strict provision that there was to be absolutely no publicity. A break came in 1955 when the First Presidency pledged $200,000 to NWAF to sponsor four years of field work. Then in 1960 the NWAF was re-organized as BYU-NWAF, with Ferguson relegated to the greatly reduced role of Secretary. By the mid-60s BYU-NWAF was gaining recognition in the non-Mormon archaeology community for its contribution to Mesoamerican Preclassic archaeology, but Ferguson was becoming disenchanted. Despite broad conjectures about how the people described in the BOM might fit into the picture of Mesoamerican history, the reality was that no evidence had been uncovered that substantiated the BOM, or resolved the serious discrepancies between the kind of agriculture and material culture described in the BOM, and the very different picture that emerged from archaeology. Findings that once seemed promising evidence for the BOM, had proved fallacious..."

In the first place, I highly doubt that the church would have refused to accept anything that would have been supportive of the B of M. Had it been found it would have been fully and happily embraced.

Secondly this smacks of being more of a CYA tactic, should nothing be found at all. It gives them plausible deniability.

So if the church (who's express mission is to take the restored Gospel to the world) is funding archeaological digs in Central America, wouldn't the logical question be........WHY?

Why be involved with archeaology at all and especially in Central America? It seems to me that if Christ is the central figure of worship and one had a hankering (and the money) to do archeaology, why not at least do it in the Middle East around Jerusalem?

To say, "Well we just like education in general and we like our kids at BYU to be smart" may not cut it here.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Palerider

[blackstrap]

The BoM is another testament of Jesus Christ. It claims that Christ visited the Americas. So, we should only (if ever) do archeology around Jerusalem. Makes perfect logic.

[Palerider]

The BoM is another testament of Jesus Christ. It claims that Christ visited the Americas. So, we should only (if ever) do archeology around Jerusalem. Makes perfect logic.

This is hilarity bordering on insanity.....

According to Robert Smith (and others here), the implication is "the church doesn't do archeaology in order to verify the B of M.

The B of M stands magnificently alone in the face of zero verifiable empirical evidence directly related to it."

Then you completely undermine them by saying, "We do archeology here because Christ visited here."

Let's see.......and how would that archeology help you in your claim that Christ visited here.........?

Smooth move.......

Clean up the attitude. If you continue with the mockery you will be removed from the thread.

[mrmendoza]

I find it curious, the opposition to finding factual support for claims made by JS. The reason it perplexes me is because even Jesus said, "³⁷ If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

³⁸ But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." (John 10:37,38)

And to Thomas he showed himself as a proof of his resurrection. So clearly Jesus isn't opposed to verifying truth claims with facts that support them.

While I certanly believe the passage you quote here is true and accurate (Because I believe in the Bible!) still and all, what we have here is the Bible "testifying of itself"! As do all the other accounts of Christ ressurection found therein. What other evedence do you have that He was actualy ressurected, out side of the Bible?

I would hope that your testimony of His ressurection would be based at least as much on a "spiritual" testimony as in the words of a book written over 2 thousand years ago, with no other verafication except the book itself!

Which leads to this concept;

, the BoM does not really help that much, since it pretty much offers "Jesus' words" straight from the Bible. This raises the question, why? If "not one hundredth part of what Jesus said" is contained in the BoM, why spend so much space retelling what we already have?

Consider this: back about twenty years or so, a group of "bible scholars", having put in many years of "scholarly studies" about how the New testiment was put together decided that the words of Christ as found therein were not really His words at all but were added in at some later date by well meaning followers trying to make something more of Jesus then was He really was! These "scholars' even went so far as to put out their own edition of the New Testiment with all the words that they say were not the words of Jesus colored. These amounted to over 80% of the text relating to His words. Including most of the Sermon on the Mount!

Now true believers can just say, "it doesn't matter what others may say,I believe anyway!" and I applaud for that,But! What real evedence do they have outside of the Bible? Are they not in every bit as weak a position as danielwoods believes we are?

Consider this.What would happen to the position of those "scholars" if other writings, coming from another part of the world outside of the Holy Land were to come forth? and what if they showed that other people actualy saw the risen Christ, and He spoke unto them the same words that were found in the NT? Would that not destroy the "wisdom of the wise" ? Would that not show the world that Jesus really rose from the tomb? woild that not show that He is truely the Christ!

The BOM teachings which so closely mirror the Bible are in deed "Another testimony of Christ", and the greatest wittness to the veracity of the Bible!

So even though we havent found absolute proof of the BOM story, and the ressurection of Christ can't be "proved" by the Bible alone, The Bible and The Book of Mormon taken together,verify the truths of each other!

Mike

[Tacenda]

I think Joseph Smith told it exactly as it happened. No need for props, not a pious fraud. He told just what happened. Visitation from God, Jesus Christ and angles. You seem to have been visiting anti sites again.

Like Van Hale, do you think members can remain in good standing if they think the BoM isn't a historical book, but scripture all the same and from God?

Full Text Transcript of Van Hale's Statement on the Book of Mormon:

violation of Fair Use removed

[cursor]

The straw-man Wikipedia entry is false. The LDS Church did not give any money to the NWAF in order to prove the Book of Mormon true ...

Anyone wanting to know how Mesoamerican archeology and the Book of Mormon stack up in comparison will need to read Prof. John L. Sorenson's forthcoming magnum opus, Mormon's Codex (Deseret, Aug 2013). Sorenson was there with Ferguson in Mesoamerica before the founding of the NWAF.

An endnote from the manuscript of John L. Sorenson's soon to be published Mormon's Codex reads:

Endnote: The dig at Santa Rosa was of course under auspices of the BYU-New World

Archaeological Foundation, which was funded by the LDS Church, but neither

[Agusin]

Delgado nor

[Donald]

Brockington were Mormons, nor did they nor anyone else associated with the NWAF attempt to make any Book of Mormon identification of the site

[referring to Santa Rosa]

or the region (or of

any

site or region, for that matter), even a generation later, after I (1985, 152-157) had independently suggested that Santa Rosa could be the ruins of Zarahemla. (Regarding the scientific independence of the NWAF from any LDS church direction see an unambiguous 1959 published statement by J. Alden Mason, emeritus professor of anthropology at the University of Pennsylvania, who was then serving as an archaeologist and editor for the NWAF, averring that there were never

any

attempts to exert church influence on the Foundation’s scientific operations or publications.)

Edited May 20, 2013 by cursor

[ERayR]

Like Van Hale, do you think members can remain in good standing if they think the BoM isn't a historical book, but scripture all the same and from God?

A members standing is not my call to make. However, I have trouble understanding how one could base life's decisions on something they considered a fairy tale.

[Tacenda]

Like Van Hale, do you think members can remain in good standing if they think the BoM isn't a historical book, but scripture all the same and from God?

Full Text Transcript of Van Hale's Statement on the Book of Mormon:

violation of Fair Use removed Oops, sorry moderators.

[cursor]

Here's an informative article by Dan Peterson (2005), entitled "On the New World Archaeological Foundation." It reviews the book The Mask of Mormonism, by John Ankerberg and John Weldon. Note that the many of the indented bodies of text are wrongly formatted (they should not be indented).

Edited May 20, 2013 by cursor

[Questing Beast]

A members standing is not my call to make. However, I have trouble understanding how one could base life's decisions on something they considered a fairy tale.

What if all of lost, that is to say dead, history is more or less a "fairy tale"? What if pounding on the block of "literal history" is arguing competing phantasms?

Some subjects are copiously covered with evidence, some are almost bereft of any evidence at all. For instance, taking two secular examples, the American Civil War, and the Norman Conquest (two interests of mine): the ACW is so blessed with a wealth of written documentation that no single person can ever sift through all there is; whereas the Norman Conquest is so meagerly supplied with written, that is to say original, documentation, that anyone can read all there is in an afternoon, not hurrying. And if memory serves, we have (maybe) three extant, medieval copies of Julius Caesar's history, well over a thousand years after the purported events, and a handful of Homer's Illiad and Odyssey, also copies many hundreds of years after the related events. Put a collection of witnesses on the stand and have them relate a shared event from memory; no two will ever agree in details. Nobody remembers what actually happened, they only remember what they noticed and what their brain chooses to remember and how it chooses to remember it: this is all based on a subconscious determination of a complex of what is needful, desirable and inescapable, i.e. impressive or troubling, etc. So anyone writing down what they "saw and heard" is at best going to provide only what they remember, which is first of all incomplete, and secondly colored by HOW they remember it. If you take the Book of Mormon to be literally an ancient record from the members of an ancient culture, you still have what? Mormon transcribing and abridging and Moroni adding a bit at the end: and what are they setting down? The written perceptions of individuals, whose collective memories are those of other individuals. In short, "history" is mostly distorted and imaginative, it can't be otherwise.

This reality puts contemporary life into a different perspective, vis-a-vis written history, or that which lies beyond living memory. All such (sic) is equally accessible to interpretation by all now living, and equally valid as interpreted, if "they" say it is. The only issue, then, is to restrict and remove what is unjust. If belief does not produce injustice (and it rarely does so), then believing what you want is okay, go for it.

Arguing religion based on "historical veracity" is pointless. I just didn't know that for many, many, many years....

Edited May 20, 2013 by Questing Beast

[ERayR]

Arguing religion based on "historical veracity" is pointless. I just didn't know that for many, many, many years....

On this you and I can certainly agree.

[Calm]

I never liked those scriptures about doing things first in order to get the blessings, I want to do them because it's the right thing to do. And God is not beholden to us ever, he's in charge,

And what is stopping you from doing them because they are the right thing to do?

But not everyone has that attitude unfortunately or is successful at doing things out of love even when they desire to do them. Do you think God should just leave those people to themselves to deal with their lack of desire to do what is right all on their own? Do you ignore your own children who are not inclined to clean their room, do their homework, take showers, eat properly and just let them live in their own filth? Or do you find a way to bridge the gap between being able to do something and wanting to do something by setting up a system that offers rewards for doing what is right? The reason such works for kids is that they are human just like adults and adults who have not reached the point of being motivated enough to do the right things for the right reason will often do them for the blessings and by doing so, learn the benefit of them, learn of the goodness of God and grow in desire to be one with him and end up doing things out of love.

Ignoring the motivational step between being able to do something right and wanting to do something right is ignoring a stage in humanity's growth in maturity. It is a wise parent who does not ignore such.

Edited May 20, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

The LDS have a heavier yoke to carry then most, because they feel the need to be Saviors, so don't get me wrong, I love them, and still don't know exactly.

If our yoke is Christ's yoke he gave to us, then it is light.

[Calm]

Then you completely undermine them by saying, "We do archeology here because Christ visited here."

He was being sarcastic, I believe.

[ERayR]

The LDS have a heavier yoke to carry then most, because they feel the need to be Saviors, so don't get me wrong, I love them, and still don't know exactly.

If our yoke is Christ's yoke he gave to us, then it is light.

And I would add if one is doing it for the right reason.

[Calm]

I never liked those scriptures about doing things first in order to get the blessings, I want to do them because it's the right thing to do. And God is not beholden to us ever, he's in charge,

I have another comment for this post on a slightly different vein.

God is a loving father, he desires to give us blessings. But he, as a loving father, will not give us blessings that would end up harming us, perhaps crippling our spiritual growth (think of a butterfly not being able to fly if helped too much out of its cocoon). So he sets up the world so that we desire the blessings in and of themselves even if we aren't at the point where we will do them for right reason so that no matter what, one way or the other if we are intent on spiritual growth we will get the blessing, learn from that experience and we will move that much closer to having the desire to do things for the right reason.

You see that in children if rewards are done that right way. Initially there is no desire to do something that you know is the right thing to do, that may not appear to have any benefit for them. So you attach a reward to the behaviour and eventually they figure out it would be worth it for them to do, they do it and find that it leaves them with a good feeling as well as whatever reward has been attached to it (one must be careful to make the reward a logical result that is not so huge as to overwhelm the presence of other positive feelings of achievement, etc.). Maybe next time they will do it without the award, just for the sense of accomplishment or because of the joy they see on someone's face when they do it, perhaps they won't...perhaps it will take a few more times or even many more times if they tend to be very self-centered or have a hard time to relate to others...but eventually they have a chance of getting there because as a loving parent you were willing to work with them through their selfcentered stage until they were mature enough to do things for the right reasons, to do them out of love, etc.

Are you more of a loving parent if you create such a world in which they can grow or if you just give them whatever they need and thus leave them without motivation or desire to change at all.

Could this not be one of the ways the Spirit works within us, not just by directly interacting with our own spirits, but with providing us opportunities to exercise our spirits and then helping us recognize how wonderful those positive spiritual feelings are, thus creating in us a desire to do more and do it for the right reason?

We need those blessings in order to grow into someone who can be one with the Father and Son. We need those blessings to be purified of our sin completely. Even if one believes that once one has accepted Christ, one is saved, don't they still have to somehow develop in ways that allow them to be in the presence of God where no impure thing can dwell? Even if one assumes that one is not accountable for sins due to the Grace of God, one cannot commit sin in the presence of God and so one must somehow reach that point...LDS would say (and possibly others) that this change comes upon us through God's blessings and his guidance in how we are to live our lives.

Like the butterfly leaving its cocoon, for those of us who are not strong enough to do it on our own, God is wise and rather than completely free us and thus leave us in an undeveloped state, he gives us small blessings as we need them here and there which allows us to continue in our struggle without completely giving up and then when we reach a point where we need more help or we will stagnate or decay, he supplies just enough to push us that much further...and we have a choice of whether or not to accept that help.

For those of us who embrace God in our lives, the blessings will flow far past just the need to help us struggle over the next obstacle in our growth. But for those that resist or are unwilling to give oneself to God, the blessings are closer to the tiny cuts on the cocoon that encourage a butterfly that it is having enough success to keep it working at getting out.

No one is perfect save God and there are times in our lives when we are less embracing of God and what he desires for us. Do you really want to be left alone on your own if you are at a point where you don't have the desire to do what it right even though you can do it? Do you really think that your life will be better if God just grants you the blessing no matter what, whether or not you even try to struggle for it? Do your children benefit from being given everything they need or desire simply because they love you?

Now it is possible that God uses mechanisms that have no resemblance to how we humans interact and grow here in mortal life with each other. But it makes sense to me that these mechanisms of growth were put in place for a reason and it makes little sense to me that God would create a whole new system when he had already had a very solid and effective one already created for the same purpose (to provide opportunities of growth). If I am right, then we need to look at how learning and maturity and development takes place in mundane situations if we want insight into the spiritual realm. And we can experiment to see if the process works.

add-on: I have had a friend or two who have rejected God because they just don't think he's interesting enough, he doesn't do things in dramatic ways with the fireworks, etc. They prefer the kind of spirituality they see in Lord of the Rings where the bad guy is obviously the bad guy and the spiritual warfare is between wizards and ringwraiths. (They've also missed the message of the story at that point unfortunately.) They don't want a God who just uses the natural laws to create growth, whether it's biological, mental or spiritual, they want day after day of "let there be light" and then they'll believe....who wouldn't, but there is a good chance they won't have become pure and holy...unless God did his magic on them and turned them into what they were not in a moment of pure creation on his part. They think that would be cool, but when I point out that all that they were would be a result of God's work, that they would be no more than the orcs created in Mordor...just good....well, it's about then they change the subject as they also tend to be the ones who see themselves as the mighty wizards out there converting millions to the ways of peace and justice and hope, etc.....but when I ask them how they are going to get to that place of influence...what will they have done that the masses will listen to them preach the Word, they say 'it will come' and go back to playing their video games. And without a plan they pretty much stay in the same rut for years....or go looking for other easy ways of doing things and end up doing much worse than video games.

Edited May 20, 2013 by calmoriah

[MormonMason]

I never liked those scriptures about doing things first in order to get the blessings, I want to do them because it's the right thing to do. And God is not beholden to us ever, he's in charge,

Tacenda,

It is time to read past the Evangelical proof texts you have been accustomed to reading. Try very carefully reading the New Testament from Matthew to Revelation, and notice just how many passages in the New Testament alone speak of doing things before certain blessings are obtained. Even entrance into the kingdom of God is predicated upon faith, repentance, and baptism, all of which are things that must be done. One cannot make one's calling and election sure without doing certain things. Read the New Testament with no commentaries or input from anyone outside of yourself as you read. Ignore all footnotes. Just come to the texts and let them "speak" to you. Go ahead. Accept the challenge and follow through. There is nothing to fear but fear itself.

To the rest,

As to the reason for why the box washed down the hill, it was because one of the farmers in the area dug out the stone box and broke it up while looking for other treasures. A heavy rain indeed washed the remnants of it down the hill. I know I read that information in a book written by a critic of the Church but I do not recall which one. If I were with my books I could have looked through my collection of anti-Mormon books going back to the 1800s. But, alas, I am not with my books.

Edited May 21, 2013 by MormonMason

[Palerider]

He was being sarcastic, I believe.

I respectfully disagree.

[Palerider]

Tacenda,

It is time to read past the Evangelical proof texts you have been accustomed to reading. Try very carefully reading the New Testament from Matthew to Revelation, and notice just how many passages in the New Testament alone speak of doing things before certain blessings are obtained. Even entrance into the kingdom of God is predicated upon faith, repentance, and baptism, all of which are things that must be done. One cannot make one's calling and election sure without doing certain things. Read the New Testament with no commentaries or input from anyone outside of yourself as you read. Ignore all footnotes. Just come to the texts and let them "speak" to you. Go ahead. Accept the challenge and follow through. There is nothing to fear but fear itself.

To the rest,

As to the reason for why the box washed down the hill, it was because one of the farmers in the area dug out the stone box and broke it up while looking for other treasures. A heavy rain indeed washed the remnants of it down the hill. I know I read that information in a book written by a critic of the Church but I do not recall which one. If I were with my books I could have looked through my collection of anti-Mormon books going back to the 1800s. But, alas, I am not with my books.

We'll wait. Let us know when you get it.

[Tacenda]

Calmoriah, you're right, some people need that reward but I'm not one to give rewards much and I don't need them either. MM, I'll have to try that out using the scriptures. Thanks you two.

I need to pinpoint what exactly I don't like about it. Last week my neighbor was helping her husband landscape their backyard. Apparently a boulder rolled on her foot and she sprained it. She had to wear a large boot and struggled to walk, even had to crawl up her stairs. When I heard what had happened I called to tell her I wanted to take dinner over. She said I didn't need to but maybe if I need the blessings then I should do it. Well I told her I don't care about the blessings, just wanted to help out. Is this a mormon thing? I always hear this said on different occasions. This is basically all I was meaning, I want to do something because it's the nice thing to do, not to get anything out of it.

[Palerider]

I have another comment for this post on a slightly different vein.

God is a loving father, he desires to give us blessings. But he, as a loving father, will not give us blessings that would end up harming us, perhaps crippling our spiritual growth (think of a butterfly not being able to fly if helped too much out of its cocoon). So he sets up the world so that we desire the blessings in and of themselves even if we aren't at the point where we will do them for right reason so that no matter what, one way or the other if we are intent on spiritual growth we will get the blessing, learn from that experience and we will move that much closer to having the desire to do things for the right reason.

You see that in children if rewards are done that right way. Initially there is no desire to do something that you know is the right thing to do, that may not appear to have any benefit for them. So you attach a reward to the behaviour and eventually they figure out it would be worth it for them to do, they do it and find that it leaves them with a good feeling as well as whatever reward has been attached to it (one must be careful to make the reward a logical result that is not so huge as to overwhelm the presence of other positive feelings of achievement, etc.). Maybe next time they will do it without the award, just for the sense of accomplishment or because of the joy they see on someone's face when they do it, perhaps they won't...perhaps it will take a few more times or even many more times if they tend to be very self-centered or have a hard time to relate to others...but eventually they have a chance of getting there because as a loving parent you were willing to work with them through their selfcentered stage until they were mature enough to do things for the right reasons, to do them out of love, etc.

Are you more of a loving parent if you create such a world in which they can grow or if you just give them whatever they need and thus leave them without motivation or desire to change at all.

Could this not be one of the ways the Spirit works within us, not just by directly interacting with our own spirits, but with providing us opportunities to exercise our spirits and then helping us recognize how wonderful those positive spiritual feelings are, thus creating in us a desire to do more and do it for the right reason?

We need those blessings in order to grow into someone who can be one with the Father and Son. We need those blessings to be purified of our sin completely. Even if one believes that once one has accepted Christ, one is saved, don't they still have to somehow develop in ways that allow them to be in the presence of God where no impure thing can dwell? Even if one assumes that one is not accountable for sins due to the Grace of God, one cannot commit sin in the presence of God and so one must somehow reach that point...LDS would say (and possibly others) that this change comes upon us through God's blessings and his guidance in how we are to live our lives.

Like the butterfly leaving its cocoon, for those of us who are not strong enough to do it on our own, God is wise and rather than completely free us and thus leave us in an undeveloped state, he gives us small blessings as we need them here and there which allows us to continue in our struggle without completely giving up and then when we reach a point where we need more help or we will stagnate or decay, he supplies just enough to push us that much further...and we have a choice of whether or not to accept that help.

For those of us who embrace God in our lives, the blessings will flow far past just the need to help us struggle over the next obstacle in our growth. But for those that resist or are unwilling to give oneself to God, the blessings are closer to the tiny cuts on the cocoon that encourage a butterfly that it is having enough success to keep it working at getting out.

No one is perfect save God and there are times in our lives when we are less embracing of God and what he desires for us. Do you really want to be left alone on your own if you are at a point where you don't have the desire to do what it right even though you can do it? Do you really think that your life will be better if God just grants you the blessing no matter what, whether or not you even try to struggle for it? Do your children benefit from being given everything they need or desire simply because they love you?

Now it is possible that God uses mechanisms that have no resemblance to how we humans interact and grow here in mortal life with each other. But it makes sense to me that these mechanisms of growth were put in place for a reason and it makes little sense to me that God would create a whole new system when he had already had a very solid and effective one already created for the same purpose (to provide opportunities of growth). If I am right, then we need to look at how learning and maturity and development takes place in mundane situations if we want insight into the spiritual realm. And we can experiment to see if the process works.

add-on: I have had a friend or two who have rejected God because they just don't think he's interesting enough, he doesn't do things in dramatic ways with the fireworks, etc. They prefer the kind of spirituality they see in Lord of the Rings where the bad guy is obviously the bad guy and the spiritual warfare is between wizards and ringwraiths. (They've also missed the message of the story at that point unfortunately.) They don't want a God who just uses the natural laws to create growth, whether it's biological, mental or spiritual, they want day after day of "let there be light" and then they'll believe....who wouldn't, but there is a good chance they won't have become pure and holy...unless God did his magic on them and turned them into what they were not in a moment of pure creation on his part. They think that would be cool, but when I point out that all that they were would be a result of God's work, that they would be no more than the orcs created in Mordor...just good....well, it's about then they change the subject as they also tend to be the ones who see themselves as the mighty wizards out there converting millions to the ways of peace and justice and hope, etc.....but when I ask them how they are going to get to that place of influence...what will they have done that the masses will listen to them preach the Word, they say 'it will come' and go back to playing their video games. And without a plan they pretty much stay in the same rut for years....or go looking for other easy ways of doing things and end up doing much worse than video games.

Calmoriah,

I appreciate what you are trying to say here but I think Mormons are literally so indoctrinated to this, that they can't or they fail to see where being or trying to be obedient to God's commandments can become something quite different when men take it unto themselves to set up something that is BEYOND what God requires of us.

The Savior was very sensitive to this:

As is recorded in Luke 11:45-46:

45 Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also. 46 And he said , Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

And also Romans 10: 1-4:

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is , that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth .

In my honest opinion the LDS faith, for whatever reason ( I think I know but I won't share it here) has gone beyond the mark and evolved into someting that is very similar to what the Rabbi's did with the Law of Moses. They couldn't leave it as it was, they had to turn it into something that became grievous to be born.

We become justified before God as we accept and have faith in His Son. We go through a process of sanctification as His Spirit influences our lives and we turn away from sin. But in the final analysis it is Christ's righteousness that He brings to bear through His propitiation that makes us truly acceptable to the Father.

At that time I don't believe anyone will be asking for any signs or tokens, and I say that with the utmost respect. I'm not being sarcastic here.

I think the Savior's yoke is even lighter than you imagine..........

[MormonMason]

We'll wait. Let us know when you get it.

Still going to be a while yet. I keep hoping my ordeal will end and I can be at home with my books again.

[Calm]

Calmoriah, you're right, some people need that reward but I'm not one to give rewards much and I don't need them either.

If this gets too personal, please tell me to back off...but you have stated a few times that you are having a hard time praying and other things. You appear to be dissatisfied with how you are proceeding on your spiritual path. If so, if I have read you correcting and not completely misunderstood, it doesn't appear that simply doing things for the right reason is currently getting you where you want to be. The scriptures are full of instructions about life going through seasons where different things are expected of us or given us and perhaps that includes the best way to learn new spiritual wisdom. So perhaps it is time to look at another method?

[Calm]

Calmoriah,

I appreciate what you are trying to say here but I think Mormons are literally so indoctrinated to this, that they can't or they fail to see where being or trying to be obedient to God's commandments can become something quite different when men take it unto themselves to set up something that is BEYOND what God requires of us.

Of course it can become that way. The way to avoid that is to seek God's will in all things and listen to the Spirit telling us what we should or shouldn't do.

Or do you believe we should ignore the Spirit if it tells us to do something because we just might cross over from being obedient into something else?

I think the Savior's yoke is even lighter than you imagine..........

I find the Saviour's yoke exceedingly light actually, nothing he asks of me is a burden, but a blessing.

Your comment really had nothing to do with mine, which was about how the Lord helps us grow spiritually.

Edited May 21, 2013 by calmoriah

[Storm Rider]

Calmoriah,

I appreciate what you are trying to say here but I think Mormons are literally so indoctrinated to this, that they can't or they fail to see where being or trying to be obedient to God's commandments can become something quite different when men take it unto themselves to set up something that is BEYOND what God requires of us.

The Savior was very sensitive to this:

As is recorded in Luke 11:45-46:

45 Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also. 46 And he said , Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

And also Romans 10: 1-4:

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is , that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth .

In my honest opinion the LDS faith, for whatever reason ( I think I know but I won't share it here) has gone beyond the mark and evolved into someting that is very similar to what the Rabbi's did with the Law of Moses. They couldn't leave it as it was, they had to turn it into something that became grievous to be born.

We become justified before God as we accept and have faith in His Son. We go through a process of sanctification as His Spirit influences our lives and we turn away from sin. But in the final analysis it is Christ's righteousness that He brings to bear through His propitiation that makes us truly acceptable to the Father.

At that time I don't believe anyone will be asking for any signs or tokens, and I say that with the utmost respect. I'm not being sarcastic here.

I think the Savior's yoke is even lighter than you imagine..........

I don't think I disagree with you here. I think there are examples where the Church has created policy not by revelation, but because it appealed to the leader of the Church at the time. Organized religion too often falls into the trap of following the dictates of man rather than following, strictly, the dictates of God. This per se is not bad unless these policies are given priority and those more important things of the kingdom are put aside or de-emphasized. On the reverse side, it is far too easy for followers to conclude, God does it, I don't have to do anything really hard. For these, the refrain, "depart from me...I never knew you" is too clear. This world is about becoming like our Savior; to learn to hunger after righteousness so much that God is our whole focus. It is this focus that becomes a trap for too many leaders. I have concluded that every time we create a new rule, a new law, and new policy, we take one step away from Jesus Christ and his gospel. I still believe it is true. The whole law is summed up in the two great commandments; there is no need for any other. Some will fall; some will not make the same choices as others, but as we all strive to follow the Savior, we will become of one mind, one heart, and one Spirit.