International Lds Scouting

[gkearney]

With scouting in the U.S. being so much in the news of late I thought it would be interesting to people here to consider international scouting.

I am an LDS member and scout leader in Scouts Australia. I recently served as the LDS Jamboree chaplain at the Australian National Scout Jamboree. My background is in international scouting and in how LDS youth, both boys and girls interact with scouting outside of the LDS/BSA environment. My website for this is http://sites.google.com/site/intldsscouts/

First off the church does not, with rare exceptions, sponsor scouting in Australia or New Zealand or for that matter in most nations outside of the U.S. and some part of Canada. This state of affairs has really nothing to do with gays as most national scouting bodies never had any policy on such matters. It just isn't an issue which we address. Rather we focus on teaching citizenship, leadership and self reliance.

At one time church sponsored scouting was commonplace here. The idea that the church could run any kind of a program of the quality and depth as scouting is, in my opinion a fiction. Perhaps it might have the resources in Utah and a few other locations in the American west but in most of the world it would not be effective. The attempts to do so here in Australia prove this point and the activity rate of the young men reflect that. As one of the few LDS scout leaders in Australia and one that holds a national post I speak with men all the time who tell me that when the church closed up scouting that marked the day that their inactivity in the church began.

So take it from someone who lives with the decision to abandon scouting in the church, such a decision will have long lasting and unforeseeable consequences.

I have attached a report I did on International LDS scouting it addresses a wide range of issues including the very interesting topic of young LDS women in scouting and increasingly common situation as most world scout organisations, even those in Muslim nations are now co-ed.

I welcome you comments on this topic.

lds_Scouting.pdf

[Paddy]

gkearney

I grow up in Sydney and remember with fondness the time I spent in Cubs and Scouts when it was sponsored by the Church. When the Church pulled away from scouts in Australia it left a significant gap in the young mens program that I still don't think has been filled. The young women, at least in our stake, have had a strong culture of Personal Progress, however the young men never took off with the Duty to God program and has suffered for many years.

Your article brings up some good point and some interesting history. I could not see it in the article, but do you know why the church pulled from scouts in Australia?? I remember that it had to do with girls being allowed in Scouts and the Church not liking it....but I could be wrong..?

I share your passion about scouts but in my opinion it's time has now passed in Australia for scouting to be an effective supplement to the young mens program. However I am not sure what we can do for our youth. Culturally Australians do not fit with the American youth programs that get sold out here. For example Trek was good, I have done it twice now, but Australian youth have very little ties with American pioneers. We need something but what, I dont know...

Paddy

[gkearney]

Paddy

I do know the reason for the demise of scouting in Australia and it was not the admission of girls as is so often believed to be the case. Indeed Scouts Australia still permits single gender groups but such are today very rare.

I don't think it wise to attempt to clone the LDS/BSA system in Australia or anywhere else. Rather we must look to an Australian solution. Scouting can be part of that but only if we can work with in the modern program as it exists.

If you or others would care to communicate with me in private my email address can be found on the website I mentioned above.

[Bikeemikey]

grew up in new zealand and we never had a scout program that I can recall.

[gkearney]

There was church scouting in New Zealand. 1988 marks the year when church scouting went into decline through out the Pacific area. Unlike in Australia where church scouting seems to have all but vanished in New Zealand some church scout groups converted themselves into community groups and continued on with LDS leaders and youth. Becoming in effect de facto church units. As these groups were no longer sponsored by the church they no longer were required to be part of the young man's program and so became co-ed over time.

[CV75]

Perhaps it might have the resources in Utah and a few other locations in the American west but in most of the world it would not be effective.

Was there an explanation as to why the Church was not effective and pulled out of Scouting? When you speak of resources, do you mean to include member support?

[gkearney]

When I speak of resources I mean both human as well as physical. Scout s Australia has physical assets that were given to the scouts many times by royal grant which would be impossible for the church to ever come close to. The cost of trying to duplicate scouting in both human and financial capital prevent the church from ever being able to archive that end in my opinion.

[CV75]

When I speak of resources I mean both human as well as physical. Scout s Australia has physical assets that were given to the scouts many times by royal grant which would be impossible for the church to ever come close to. The cost of trying to duplicate scouting in both human and financial capital prevent the church from ever being able to archive that end in my opinion.

I see. So the Church is recognizing that the program can be effectively accomplished through other means, like when a Bishop ensures a needy person is enrolled in community social and welfare services rather than drawing off Church fast offerings.

How much encouragement comes from Church leadership for members to particpate in Scouting? In the USA, it is promoted as essential to the proper functioning of the Aaronic Priesthood quorums.

[Hamba Tuhan]

For what it's worth, we had a boy in our ward -- non-member dad, less-active mum -- who used to miss Mutual because it was on the same evening as his Scout troupe met, but in the end he gave up on Scouting because, he said, he has learnt so much more at quorum activities and has had more adventure.

[gkearney]

Here it is a bit different. Generally I have found members to be supportive if a bit concerned over the coed nature of the modern program. In fact coed scouting is not the issue that some imagine it to be. I was the first LDS chaplain at a jamboree here in many years.

One approach I have taken is the idea of embedding LDS leaders into community scout groups so that LDS youth have support and can be shown how work in one can advance the other.

Edited January 30, 2013 by gkearney

[ERayR]

When I speak of resources I mean both human as well as physical. Scout s Australia has physical assets that were given to the scouts many times by royal grant which would be impossible for the church to ever come close to. The cost of trying to duplicate scouting in both human and financial capital prevent the church from ever being able to archive that end in my opinion.

IMNSHO scouting's physical assets in this area are very expensive for church related scout programs. Local LDS units are assessed large FOS assessments while non church related unit assessments are minimal.

[gkearney]

The funding methods between the BSA and international scouting differ greatly. We have no such thing as the US Freinds of Scouting here. Our national and branch (state) offices are much smaller with a minimum of staff.

[volgadon]

The Scouts in Israel are terrible. There are hardly any groups except in the centre of the country, and they are an embarrasment, seems like each time they haave an outing, someone gets killed.

[jana at jade house]

Hi Greg! Glad to see you.

You might remember our conversations some years back about the Scouting program in the Netherlands.I was shocked and amazed by the huge differences her compared to the States. My elder boy was in US Church Scouting and did Brownsea, Oder of the Arrow, and finally Eagle Scout. He benefited greatly. My other boy now nearly 20 is still very active in Dutch Scouts- he is part of a team that leads 20 8 to 11 year old girls. Yes, girls. They LOVE him. And the parents particularly asked he be assigned this group. His Dutch Scouting group is many layered. Both boys and girls start at about 6 in a specialized group and split along gender for the 8-16 years, then come together again until 18 when they become the next generation of leaders. Some stay on until they become administrators for the group. When you are a leader for the younger set, the children call you by a name from the Jungle Book, David is Bagheera.

I can't speak for other Dutch groups- I know I have seen achievement badges in the Scouting shop. Usually groups are themed. One group is directed towards flight and air. One group is all about sailing and water. Our group is mainly woodcraft and outdoor activities, camping, swimming. There are theme days and theme campings.

I am glad I got over my dismay. Even though David never will be Order of the Arrow, nor an Eagle Scout, his group has made all the difference for a boy with PDDNos. He learned social and physical skills that are crucial to his development.

I wish his Dutch Priesthood examples had been half as invested as David grew. Despite my very best efforts, I am only one. If Scouting had been a church sponsored thing-it would have been even more tragic. At least David is still active in Scouting.

He comes home every weekend from Medical School just to lead his girlies.

I wish all leaders, LDS and not, would be as dedicated.

[gkearney]

Another couple of question to consider. Let's say that the church were to end its scouting program taking with them about 1/3 of the youth members. Would this result in the BSA following the route of most other national scouting programs and become coed across the program? Girls are really the only large untapped pool of new youth members.

Also what happens to the LDS scouts and leaders. Do they walk away from scouting as well, join other troops or as happened with some such groups in NZ continue on as community troop independent of the church?

[Saints Alive]

I have a hard time seeing many US 11-18 year old girls flocking to scouting if it ever became co-ed unless they significantly changed the program. Perhaps the BSA and GSA could merge?

[ERayR]

Also what happens to the LDS scouts and leaders. Do they walk away from scouting as well, join other troops or as happened with some such groups in NZ continue on as community troop independent of the church?

Yes to all of the above. However, my guess is that most LDS scouts and leaders would be engaged in the Churches youth program.

[gkearney]

I have a hard time seeing many US 11-18 year old girls flocking to scouting if it ever became co-ed unless they significantly changed the program. Perhaps the BSA and GSA could merge?

I never thought of US girls being that different from their Canadian or Australian counterparts.

[gkearney]

Yes to all of the above. However, my guess is that most LDS scouts and leaders would be engaged in the Churches youth program.

Well one hopes they would have a better program to put in place than what happened in other places where church scouting ended. The history of this is not good however.

[Paddy]

Another factor limiting the church's involvement in international scouts is cost. I would suspect that scouts would not be subsidized by the church and would then place an additional financial burden on families.

Additionally it would take some time for the church to have a significant influence on the scouting policy makers internationally. They seem to have some influence in the US. If they do not have some control or influence I don't see them wanting to associate with them.

Paddy

[gkearney]

I'm don't know about costs. Why would the church be willing to cover that expense for families in the US but not willing to do so overseas?

[gkearney]

This whole matter of the gays in the BSA is starting to make some in the international scouting community question the wisdom of holding the 2019 world jamboree in the United States. There is a worry that the BSA might fall apart into two or more groups each claiming to be the sole national scouting organization a situation that the WOSM would have a very hard time addressing.

[Saints Alive]

... two or more groups each claiming to be the sole national scouting organization a situation that the WOSM would have a very hard time addressing.

Why would that be an issue? Isn't the point of the world jamborees to bring all scouts together? Why wouldn't both fractions be allowed to participate if they desired?

[Calm]

Why would that be an issue? Isn't the point of the world jamborees to bring all scouts together? Why wouldn't both fractions be allowed to participate if they desired?

I would think there might be a logistic problem...who runs what...for one thing. There is a lot of property and such and if there is a splitting off of groups, there may be legal issues involved...lawsuits over who owns the camps, etc.

And if the International Scouts choses a certain group to run it, then that would be giving official recognition to one group and their policies...but the group that they agree with the most (if they were okay with taking a position) may not be the best group to handle the jamboree itself.

I can see why they might want to wait a decade or so for the dust to settle.

Edited February 7, 2013 by calmoriah

[BCSpace]

The Scouts in Israel are terrible. There are hardly any groups except in the centre of the country, and they are an embarrasment, seems like each time they haave an outing, someone gets killed.

You need to borrow some of our Scouts. Seems like every time they have an outing, it rains.