180 replies to this topic

[DBMormon]

Before the Book of Mormon was revealed to young Joseph, he had already been given a seer stone and was known throughout the area as a scryer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrying.

I am curious of what others think of the connection between this activity and the proceeding visits by an angel and reception of the plates.

1.) Was The Lord using this scrying to train a prophet?  Are they interchangeably connected?  Does Joseph see this as the case?

2.) If they are connected then are there other examples of prophets and apostles who have dabbled in this type of stuff?  references and sources?  Also why did a time come when church leaders changed direction and saw seer stones moving forward as a bad thing?  I can see people thinking they're revelations are trumping those of the leadership but that reflects back to the individual.

3.) If not of God, do we see the God ok with this type of activity?  Did he simply ask Joseph to stop or did he call him to repent of this?

4.) Joseph said every person has a right to a seer stone.   Dec. 27, 1841: I met with the Twelve at Brother Joseph's. He conversed with us in a familiar manner on a variety of subjects, and explained to us the Urim and Thummim which he found with the plates, called in the Book of Mormon the Interpreters. He said that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make an evil use of it; he showed us his seer stone. (Brigham Young, Mill. Star 26:118)
Knowing that why do we not actively encourage this today?  Do each of us and should we be actively searching for one?  Would this be frowned upon if members begin using them?  Is the wickedness referred to about the church as a whole or individuals?

6.) What are your general thoughts about things like this (Divining rods, seer stones, tarrot cards, ouija boards, crystal balls, hypnosis)  Please deal with each of these separately as I am aware the church frowns very heavily on ouija boards and also hypnosis when used as entertainment!

Edited by reelmormon, 19 June 2012 - 07:53 AM.

[CA Steve]

I'd also be interested in opinions on whether the stone(s) had specific power(s) or was it just a focal point. If anyone believes the former then a second question would be did those powers 'change' when Joseph started using the stone for religious purposes?

[Log]

This thread cannot help but draw forth our modern hostility towards anything inconsistent with scientific naturalism.  Our enemies have made issues of these things because presentism does the work for them in driving a wedge between Joseph and us.

Does any good come from this?

[Brant Gardner]

Since I have published on this topic, I obviously have opinions. However, I am really interested in the nature of the questions and responses and so I am holding off presenting my opinions so I can see how the thread develops. Please see my lack of posting (for a while) as interest, not disinterest (odd as that might seem).

[Blah]

I don't know if this offers much insight, but I've always found it a striking parallel to the seer stone...

A number of years ago I was in charge of the AV setup for church broadcasts in our stake center. One night there was a broadcast for (if memory serves) Institute and Seminary teachers. Our satellite dish had always been notoriously temperamental, and that night we had audio, but no video. I had set up a TV in the RS room, with the sound piped in through the speakers in the ceiling. Halfway through the meeting, I turned off the TV (which was only displaying a blank blue screen anyway) and removed it from the room. 5 minutes later, one person asked if I could set the TV back up. Without the TV, it seemed, the folks in the room were having trouble focusing. The information was still there (via audio), but without a visual focal point, no one seemed to be getting much out of it.

I suspect the seer stone may have served the same function. The same revelatory information may have been available either way, but the stone provided Joseph with a focal point. Later he received revelation without the stone or the Urim & Thumim.

[rameumptom]

Was there a reason that God would use an Israelite, raised as an Egyptian, to lead Israel out of Egypt?  Perhaps it is because there were some skills required (like leadership skills) that a slave could not learn, but a prince of Egypt would learn.

Is there a reason that God chose to place Jesus in a manger, and not as Herod's offspring to rule Israel? Or to have him from Nazareth, when everyone back then knew nothing good could come from Nazareth?

The Firstborn was important to God and Israel, yet Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and Jacob were technically not Firstborn children.

How about using an anti-Christian like Paul as a missionary to the Gentiles?

Doesn't it seem that God often uses individuals in controversial situations to accomplish his work?

[robuchan]

The peepstone and related issues are a top five issue for me in my strikes against Mormonism list.  ie found using another peepstone borrowed from friend Sally Chase, the whole treasure hunting thing, the reports about how the treasure was found but sunk further in the ground, the very nature of using a peepstone to translate, the gold plates not being present during translation, the treasure seeking/Captain Kidd/Moroni connection, Oliver being encouraged to use his diving rod to translate, etc.  All of it just comes across extremely sketchy.

[Jaybear]

Log, on 19 June 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

This thread cannot help but draw forth our modern hostility towards anything inconsistent with scientific naturalism.  Our enemies have made issues of these things because presentism does the work for them in driving a wedge between Joseph and us.

Does any good come from this?

Presentism?    Modern hostility?   I am curious what leads you to think that society today is more hostile than in Smith's time, to those who make money from their ability to tap into the supernatural.   Glass looking got Smith into trouble with the law.  Today its easy to locate and use the services of psychics, palm readers,  tarot cards readers, astrologists, and water witches.  

No,  I don't think you can blame presentism for the discomfort you feel when discussing Smith's use of his seer stones to locate buried treasure.

[mapman]

Mark Ashurst-McGee's thesis A Pathway to Prophethood is very interesting and deals with some of your questions.  You can read it online if you have access to Proquest.  He argues that the seer stones and rods were part of his preparation for becoming a prophet.

[DBMormon]

Quote

The peepstone and related issues are a top five issue for me in my strikes against Mormonism list.  ie found using another peepstone borrowed from friend Sally Chase, the whole treasure hunting thing, the reports about how the treasure was found but sunk further in the ground, the very nature of using a peepstone to translate, the gold plates not being present during translation, the treasure seeking/Captain Kidd/Moroni connection, Oliver being encouraged to use his diving rod to translate, etc.  All of it just comes across extremely sketchy.

And yet the Divining Rod similar in concept to a seer stone is still used today.  There are numerous people, honest hardworking normal people who use them today.  I just spoke to a missionary in our area who used on his farm and swore by them.  We don't know why but somethings work without any current explanation.

[DBMormon]

It certainly seems weird to us, but i agree that there is truth around us that we are completely unawre of it being there and how it works

[Brant Gardner]

robuchan, on 19 June 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

the treasure seeking/Captain Kidd/Moroni connection,

This reference tells me that you have been very selective in your reading. I would recommend Ashurst-McGee, Mark. “Moroni as Angel and as Treasure Guardian.” FARMS Review 18, no. 1 (2006): 34-100 (written prior to the Ronald Huggins article you are referencing).

After the Huggins article Larry Morris responded: Morris, Larry E. “‘I Should Have an Eye Single to the Glory of God’: Joseph Smith’s Account of the Angel and the Plates.” FARMS Review 17, no. 1 (2005): 11-81.

Both Ashurst-McGee and Morris are excellent historians. As with many historical issues, the best advice is to keep reading history.

[JAHS]

I don't think each person really needs a seer stone in this life but the Doctrine and Covenants mentions that all who come in to the Celestial kingdom will receive a "white stone", perhaps similar in purpose to the seer stone Joseph Smith had.
D&C 130:10-11
10. Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11. And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

In the mean time I think we can get what we need in this life through prayer and personal revelation through the Holy Ghost.

[DBMormon]

Brant Gardner and any others who wish to chime in,
I don't want to derail my own thread but Brant, What do you make of the accounts of Joseph dealing with Moroni and receiving the plates that come from a third party source.  Ex: Joseph Capron, Joseph Knight, Howe testimonies, Leman Copley, Willard Chase, ect....?

Do you in your mind simply strike this up to an effort to either ruin Jospeh's charachter or a bunch of heresay or do you think there are a lot of odd details and information that do not make it into any of the first hand accounts from Joseph's own words?

there are common odd threads woven into the multiple stories even given by two unrelated people or groups of people years apart.
- Toad like creatures riminding us where Hoffman got the idea
- the angel being covered in blood with his throat cut ear to ear
-

Edited by reelmormon, 19 June 2012 - 09:48 AM.

[Nathair]

reelmormon, on 19 June 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

Before the Book of Mormon was revealed to young Joseph, he had already been given a seer stone and was known throughout the area as a scryer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrying.

I am curious of what others think of the connection between this activity and the proceeding visits by an angel and reception of the plates.

1.) Was The Lord using this scrying to train a prophet?  Are they interchangeably connected?  Does Joseph see this as the case?

2.) If they are connected then are there other examples of prophets and apostles who have dabbled in this type of stuff?  references and sources?  Also why did a time come when church leaders changed direction and saw seer stones moving forward as a bad thing?  I can see people thinking they're revelations are trumping those of the leadership but that reflects back to the individual.

3.) If not of God, do we see the God ok with this type of activity?  Did he simply ask Joseph to stop or did he call him to repent of this?

4.) Joseph said every person has a right to a seer stone.   Dec. 27, 1841: I met with the Twelve at Brother Joseph's. He conversed with us in a familiar manner on a variety of subjects, and explained to us the Urim and Thummim which he found with the plates, called in the Book of Mormon the Interpreters. He said that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make an evil use of it; he showed us his seer stone. (Brigham Young, Mill. Star 26:118)
Knowing that why do we not actively encourage this today?  Do each of us and should we be actively searching for one?  Would this be frowned upon if members begin using them?  Is the wickedness referred to about the church as a whole or individuals?

6.) What are your general thoughts about things like this (Divining rods, seer stones, tarrot cards, ouija boards, crystal balls, hypnosis)  Please deal with each of these separately as I am aware the church frowns very heavily on ouija boards and also hypnosis when used as entertainment!

I don't see the issue with most of these things.  Joseph in Egypt divined using a cup (most likely scrying.)  I don't recommend untrained individuals using Ouija boards.  Most likely nothing will happen, but they can tap into your "shadow side" which can be dangerous for the unprepared.  Tarot, I Ching, Rune stones and my preferred Ogham sticks simply facilitate access to ones intuition.

Yours under the divine oaks,
Nathair /|\

[robuchan]

Brant Gardner, on 19 June 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

This reference tells me that you have been very selective in your reading. I would recommend Ashurst-McGee, Mark. “Moroni as Angel and as Treasure Guardian.” FARMS Review 18, no. 1 (2006): 34-100 (written prior to the Ronald Huggins article you are referencing).

After the Huggins article Larry Morris responded: Morris, Larry E. “‘I Should Have an Eye Single to the Glory of God’: Joseph Smith’s Account of the Angel and the Plates.” FARMS Review 17, no. 1 (2005): 11-81.

Both Ashurst-McGee and Morris are excellent historians. As with many historical issues, the best advice is to keep reading history.

Yes, I've read the Ashurst-McGee article.  It does not sway me from my perspective that the whole thing is extremely sketchy.

[Ron Beron]

Having studied ancient and modern shamanism to some degree it is evident from all resources that the shaman used items to focus his "powers" on his pronouncements.  Joseph, not unlike his ancient counterparts, used the stone as means of drawing in the spirit.  Why a stone?  Culturally it was something he was used to again not unlike Joseph's divining cup in Genesis.  Later, when he felt comfortable and more sophisticated in his abilities realized that his stone wasn't the source, but God Himself.

[cinepro]

reelmormon, on 19 June 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

We don't know why but somethings work without any current explanation.

Somethings don't work without any current explanation too.

[cinepro]

Log, on 19 June 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

Our enemies have made issues of these things because presentism does the work for them in driving a wedge between Joseph and us.

It is not our enemies who have done this.  The Church itself has moved away from many of the gifts given to our early leaders and members, such as the use of seer stones and speaking in tongues.  It is not our enemies who are preventing President Monson from using a seer stone to receive revelation or new scriptures and publicly acknowledging his method.

The only "wedge" driven between Joseph and us is the gap created by our moving away from the parts of his history we are embarrassed by.

[cinepro]

Blah, on 19 June 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

I suspect the seer stone may have served the same function. The same revelatory information may have been available either way, but the stone provided Joseph with a focal point. Later he received revelation without the stone or the Urim & Thumim.

The difference between "scientific naturalism" and "scientific unnaturalism" is that if someone bought a TV that worked like a seer stone, they would ask for their money back.