Libs Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 Thank you for the response, Dr. Peterson (and the link). I don't think I am familiar with Gordon Kaufman (not that I recall).What are your boundaries, if you don't mind my asking?I agree there must be boundaries of some kind, but I guess mine would be rather broad. I would not want to deny the Christian label to anyone who wants to describe themselves as a Christian. (Okay, I might make an exception for the Westboro group!)..Really enjoyed your last blog post (article), btw, as I almost always do, unless it's on politics. You are an excellent writer and always very thought provoking.
Daniel Peterson Posted June 2, 2012 Author Posted June 2, 2012 I don't have really specific boundaries. But it seemed to me, from listening to Professor Kaufman -- though, not having made a specific study of his writing, I could be wrong -- that he didn't believe in a personal God and, accordingly, probably didn't believe in the deity or resurrection of Christ, and so forth. That puts him pretty far out on the fringes, at the very minimum.
Daniel Peterson Posted June 2, 2012 Author Posted June 2, 2012 "Arabs, Not Islam, Spread by the Sword":http://dcpsicetnon.blogspot.com/2012/06/arabs-not-islam-spread-by-sword.html
Libs Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 A lot of Progressive Christians do not believe in a literal resurrection (although, they may believe in it symbolically). I would say, the determination of whether or not a group is considered "fringe", depends on how we define "mainstream". Orthodoxy is not always mainstream..and in Christianity, as a whole, I think is becoming less so. A lot of changes going on, within this group, at present.Interesting history of Islam. I know little to nothing of this religion. I've studied a lot of religions, but for some reason, Islam just never captured my interest, until more recently.
Storm Rider Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 The moment one abandons a belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, his literal resurrection and the Atonement, then one has created his own religion and left Christianity. This was the message of Jesus; this was his purpose for being: to save mankind.
Libs Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 There are a lot of Christians who believe Jesus was a Savior and "the way", only in different terms. That doesn't mean they are not Christians. Anyone who is a follower of Jesus Christ (even if their beliefs are different from yours) is a Christian, IMO.Btw, I have seen critics of LDS claim that LDS do not believe in the Divinity of Jesus Christ, because they believe he is second fiddle to Heavenly Father, who is the "only" God they worship. The Divinity of Jesus, to an Evangelical, means he is the one and only God, not just a God, but the God. On that basis, many Ev's exclude Mormons from the umbrella of Christianity.I lean towards inclusion rather than exclusion, when it comes to defining Christianity. I try to allow everyone to define themselves.
Storm Rider Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 There are a lot of Christians who believe Jesus was a Savior and "the way", only in different terms. That doesn't mean they are not Christians. Anyone who is a follower of Jesus Christ (even if their beliefs are different from yours) is a Christian, IMO.Btw, I have seen critics of LDS claim that LDS do not believe in the Divinity of Jesus Christ, because they believe he is second fiddle to Heavenly Father, who is the "only" God they worship. The Divinity of Jesus, to an Evangelical, means he is the one and only God, not just a God, but the God. On that basis, many Ev's exclude Mormons from the umbrella of Christianity.I lean toward inclusion rather than exclusion, when it comes to defining Christianity. I try to allow everyone to define themselves.I guess I rely too much on the English language. Any question about the divinity of Jesus would need to focus on is Jesus divine or not. I have read where some anti-Mormons have said LDS do not think Jesus is divine, but I understood them to be idiots and not understand that the LDS Church teaches the divinity of Jesus. I cannot understand any other way to interpret divine.If we move beyond the word divine to the nature of God, etc., then the Pandora's box is open and all else is called into question and everyone gets to disagree with everyone else...and you and I agree.I do like the idea of allowing people to self-identify; however, at some point it would seem logical to draw some parameters. For example, can a Muslim simultaneously be a Christan? No, not unless a Muslim can also accept the Crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus and that Jesus was the Son of God i.e. that he is divine. Can a Christian be a Christian and not believe in the divinity of Jesus? No, I don't think they can be. The only purpose for Jesus to exist is because he was divine; the Bible becomes meaningless if we start throwing out entire chapters and books that proclaim his divinity just in order that the Jesus Seminar can deny the divinity of Jesus, his resurrection, and his Second Coming and still maintain the name Christian. Maybe we do allow everyone to self-identify and then ask what do you mean by saying you are Christian? Well, I believe that he was a good man and was a nice philosopher. In this instance, we do not have a Christian on our hands, but a nice secularist and possible humanist. What we don't have is someone that can relate to any of the original disciples of Jesus.LDS have a problem when people create a definition of Christian that does not exist in the Bible itself. When a new definition is created and attached to the word, then its loses its initial meaning; it becomes something else. Language is only of value when definitions are understood by everyone else. Once everyone gets to create their own definitions, talking and understanding becomes impossible.
Libs Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 Muslims are not asking to be called Christians, and I really don't see why people self identifying as Christian, with a different interpretation of the Bible, from yours, is any problem at all. Everyone I've ever known, who self identifies as Christian, also believes in the Bible, in some way, and considers it scripture.
Daniel Peterson Posted June 3, 2012 Author Posted June 3, 2012 My point about Gordon Kaufman is that -- although I could be wrong -- based on what I heard from him and on conversations with him, I'm not sure that he even believed in a genuinely-existing God anymore. And once such things as the resurrection, atonement, and deity of Christ are gone -- and the existence of God along with them -- I'm not sure what it means anymore to be "Christian."I try to be inclusive, too. But if the object has no wheels and no engine and is shaped like a duck, I can't see much reason to call it an automobile.
Libs Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 I've been reading a little about Kaufman and he is a fairly typical Progressive Christian. He believes traditional explanations about the origins of the universe and God are inadequate, in light of scientific discoveries of the modern day. He reminds me a lot of John Shelby Spong, who probably appears to border on agnostic/atheism. But, in reality, I think they are both believers, looking for a more realistic view of "God", in this modern age.Dr. Kaufman was a Christian theologian who challenged his students to test and develop their own views instead of preaching the beliefs of others, and he was one of the most influential theology professors at the university, said Francis Schüssler Fiorenza, Stillman Professor of Roman Catholic Theological Studies at Harvard Divinity School.“He encouraged [his students] to be independent thinkers and to really be concerned with the relationship between religious beliefs and concrete practice in terms of politics, environmental and social concerns,’’ Fiorenza said.Dr. Kaufman’s former students relished his teaching.“He was an exceptional teacher and mentor who stimulated discussion and interacted with his students in a way that very few faculty members I’ve had have ever done,’’ said George Rupp, a former student and colleague of Dr. Kaufman.“His relationship with his students was huge,’’ his son David said. “And I will tell you that we are getting wonderful testimonies from people whose lives were really affected.’’Seems that Dr. Kaufman has passed away. The above is from his obituary.http://articles.bost...divinity-school
Kenngo1969 Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 A lot of Progressive Christians do not believe in a literal resurrection (although, they may believe in it symbolically). I would say, the determination of whether or not a group is considered "fringe", depends on how we define "mainstream". Orthodoxy is not always mainstream..and in Christianity, as a whole, I think is becoming less so. A lot of changes going on, within this group, at present.Interesting history of Islam. I know little to nothing of this religion. I've studied a lot of religions, but for some reason, Islam just never captured my interest, until more recently.Yeah, people strapping on bombs and blowing themselves up in the name of religion does tend to pique people's interest, doesn't it?
Libs Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 Ahem...well, yes.But, I don't judge the whole religion based on a few extremists.
Kenngo1969 Posted June 5, 2012 Posted June 5, 2012 Ahem...well, yes.But, I don't judge the whole religion based on a few extremists.Nor, lest you be tempted to think otherwise by the foregoing, do I. I have defended Islam and its non-extreme adherents on this Board from time to time when I feel people start attempting to paint with too broad of a brush in that area. Nonetheless, radicalism and terrorism are two big reasons for an upswing in interest in Islam and its adherents in recent years.
Daniel Peterson Posted July 1, 2012 Author Posted July 1, 2012 Hmmm. I think I've fallen behind on Hamblin-Peterson columns. In any case, here's today's:http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765586940/Monastic-life-in-the-Judean-wilderness.html
Daniel Peterson Posted August 26, 2012 Author Posted August 26, 2012 I've definitely fallen behind on registering Hamblin-Peterson columns here, despite the deafening clamor for me to post regular notifications. (I assume that I'm just not hearing the clamoring because it's really high-pitched, or something like that.) So, anyway, this is the most recent one:http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765599128/Anti-theists-cant-erase-Christianity.html
Damien the Leper Posted August 27, 2012 Posted August 27, 2012 Oh great.......now cue the malevolent stalker getting some key intel from an informant about the ongoing battle between the two for name precedence in the column.Leave the good Doctor from the other board alone.
The Nehor Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 Leave the good Doctor from the other board alone.I said that over six months ago and I don't believe I've thought of him once since then....until now. Well, I guess I need a reminder about the poor pitiful souls who need God every so often. I will pray for him tonight.
Damien the Leper Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 I said that over six months ago and I don't believe I've thought of him once since then....until now. Well, I guess I need a reminder about the poor pitiful souls who need God every so often. I will pray for him tonight.Good call...you do that.
Daniel Peterson Posted September 24, 2012 Author Posted September 24, 2012 I keep forgetting to trumpet the Hamblin/Peterson column here. Anyway, one appeared yesterday. And it's not the worst we've ever written. It's about the suddenly famous papyrus of the so-called "Gospel of Jesus's Wife":http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765605862/Hamblin-and-Peterson-Does-papyrus-prove-Jesus-was-married.html
Pahoran Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 Leave the good Doctor from the other board alone.The malevolent stalker is "the good Doctor?"In what universe?Regards,Pahoran
Daniel Peterson Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 The most recent installment of the biweekly joint Hamblin-Peterson column in the Deseret News:http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765609463/Sacred-stone-one-of-the-most-enduring-metaphors-of-the-holy.html
Calm Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 What made you think of writing on this topic? Just curious.
Daniel Peterson Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 Actually, this one is mostly Bill's. We typically alternate. One writes, the other offers input, and off it goes.
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