A Non-LDS "take" on the Deseret Alphabet, etc

[Stargazer]

The RobWords YouTube channel is a super channel for dealing with linguistic matters. Rob talks about the Deseret Alphabet, but also other attempts to setting forth a better alphabet for the English language, including Benjamin Franklin's, Noah Webster's spelling reforms, Pitman's shorthand, and so on. 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/15/2025 at 12:24 PM, Stargazer said:

The RobWords YouTube channel is a super channel for dealing with linguistic matters. Rob talks about the Deseret Alphabet, but also other attempts to setting forth a better alphabet for the English language, including Benjamin Franklin's, Noah Webster's spelling reforms, Pitman's shorthand, and so on. 

....................................................

Nice video.  Thanks.

Reminds me that my late mother was a reading specialist in the elementary school system in Southern California back in the 1970s, and she taught classes on reading with something like the ITA (44 letters) or Unifon Alphabet (40 letters), which could be used to spell any word a kid knew by sound.  No "wrong spellings" impeded a kid's progress in reading.  According to mom, kids would easily learn the alphabet in 1st grade, and could easily abandon it by 3rd grade -- which she claimed lad to vastly improved reading skills -- which Bill Hoenig of the California Board of Education backs up with stats.

This sort of thing is not necessary for a language which is written as it sounds, like Spanish, but English is such a hodge-podge.

[Benjamin McGuire]

It's missing the other piece of this puzzle though - and that's the restorationist component. That is, Mormonism believed that it was fulfilling the prophecy in Zephaniah 3 of a return to a pure language as part of this endeavor.

And while there is some discussion of George D. Watt, the other early LDS member who was engaged in alphabet creation is missed: Michael Hull Barton, whose newly constructed alphabet was published serially starting in April of 1830, and in its complete form in 1833. Barton became a Mormon in 1831. He did not last terribly long. But, it seems likely that he provided some influence, and his letters tend to have some of the same characteristics as Deseret letters. These experiments would seem to have played a role (in my opinion) with the EAG documents from Kirtland, and Joseph's earlier mentions (along with samples) of the pure language.

[Mfbnew]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Nice video.  Thanks.

Reminds me that my late mother was a reading specialist in the elementary school system in Southern California back in the 1970s, and she taught classes on reading with something like the ITA (44 letters) or Unifon Alphabet (40 letters), which could be used to spell any word a kid knew by sound.  No "wrong spellings" impeded a kid's progress in reading.  According to mom, kids would easily learn the alphabet in 1st grade, and could easily abandon it by 3rd grade -- which she claimed lad to vastly improved reading skills -- which Bill Hoenig of the California Board of Education backs up with stats.

This sort of thing is not necessary for a language which is written as it sounds, like Spanish, but English is such a hodge-podge.

IMO an absurd idea!

So what do we do about different accents as spoken in different countries?   This guy is himself obviously British- and we know that because of his pronunciation.

And Australians ?  Gasp!   It would totally fragment English- for better or worse.

 "Romance" languages?  Italian, Spanish, Romanian, and on and on all evolved from Classical Latin.

No biggy- but what if Alabama and New York had different alphabets??   How would one effectively communicate to BOTH states in one message?  What alphabet would a hypothetical future President of the US use?

Different transliterations for each state?   And how about racial accents, and even our new neighbors from different countries with different pronunciations in their "accents"?  Which alphabet do they use, or use one for each pronunciation that happens to work best for their individual accents?  Even simply among say, the Latinos, differ in Spanish- so what?  Different transliterations for each accent?

This fragments the utility of English itself world wide.

I don't get it.

Symbols are symbols.   It's not like the change would help kids spell- they would just need to learn multiple spellings for each pronunciation!

That's the opposite of making it easier to learn reading!

And how many different dictionaries do you have to use to get the "correct" spelling or develop a NEW UNIFIED alphabet for all accents?

Uh, we already have that!

Edited February 17, 2025 by Mfbnew

[Mfbnew]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

"There is actually no room in Mormonism for philosophy as distinct from theology."  Thomas F. O'Dea

(In Robert's quotes)

Absolutely true!

We need to realize that it is ALL philosophy and no "theology".

Of course it is inspired- so what?  Is it impossible for "theology" to be revelation?

God is an embodied man?   What does that do to the way he thinks- or is his human brain no long operable? 

[Stargazer]

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Nice video.  Thanks.

Reminds me that my late mother was a reading specialist in the elementary school system in Southern California back in the 1970s, and she taught classes on reading with something like the ITA (44 letters) or Unifon Alphabet (40 letters), which could be used to spell any word a kid knew by sound.  No "wrong spellings" impeded a kid's progress in reading.  According to mom, kids would easily learn the alphabet in 1st grade, and could easily abandon it by 3rd grade -- which she claimed lad to vastly improved reading skills -- which Bill Hoenig of the California Board of Education backs up with stats.

This sort of thing is not necessary for a language which is written as it sounds, like Spanish, but English is such a hodge-podge.

English's problem is similar to French's. I don't know if the source of French's problem is the same as English's, though. English spelling was largely settled at a point before there was a major pronunciation shift. And there has been a gradual and continual shift ever since them. For example, blood and food used to be rhymable. And there's another RobWords video talking about that!

 

[Stargazer]

15 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

IMO an absurd idea!

So what do we do about different accents as spoken in different countries?   This guy is himself obviously British- and we know that because of his pronunciation.

Yes, he's British (English, actually), but lives and works in Germany.

15 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

And Australians ?  Gasp!   It would totally fragment English- for better or worse.

 "Romance" languages?  Italian, Spanish, Romanian, and on and on all evolved from Classical Latin.

No biggy- but what if Alabama and New York had different alphabets??   How would one effectively communicate to BOTH states in one message?  What alphabet would a hypothetical future President of the US use?

Different transliterations for each state?   And how about racial accents, and even our new neighbors from different countries with different pronunciations in their "accents"?  Which alphabet do they use, or use one for each pronunciation that happens to work best for their individual accents?  Even simply among say, the Latinos, differ in Spanish- so what?  Different transliterations for each accent?

This fragments the utility of English itself world wide.

I don't get it.

Symbols are symbols.   It's not like the change would help kids spell- they would just need to learn multiple spellings for each pronunciation!

That's the opposite of making it easier to learn reading!

And how many different dictionaries do you have to use to get the "correct" spelling or develop a NEW UNIFIED alphabet for all accents?

Uh, we already have that!

You seem to think he was advocating for an alphabet more suitable for English than our current one. He wasn't. In fact, in the video he commented specifically upon the issue of the different accents in the English-speaking world. He was simply commenting on the various attempts that others have made.

But nice straw man you got going there!  

[Stargazer]

20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Nice video.  Thanks.

Reminds me that my late mother was a reading specialist in the elementary school system in Southern California back in the 1970s, and she taught classes on reading with something like the ITA (44 letters) or Unifon Alphabet (40 letters), which could be used to spell any word a kid knew by sound.  No "wrong spellings" impeded a kid's progress in reading.  According to mom, kids would easily learn the alphabet in 1st grade, and could easily abandon it by 3rd grade -- which she claimed lad to vastly improved reading skills -- which Bill Hoenig of the California Board of Education backs up with stats.

This sort of thing is not necessary for a language which is written as it sounds, like Spanish, but English is such a hodge-podge.

Are you the Bob Smith on Quora with profile at https://www.quora.com/profile/Bob-Smith-3106 ? If so, I am the Mike Clark with profile at https://www.quora.com/profile/Mike-Clark-153 ! And I'm one of your followers on Quora.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/16/2025 at 7:07 PM, Mfbnew said:

IMO an absurd idea!

So what do we do about different accents as spoken in different countries?   This guy is himself obviously British- and we know that because of his pronunciation.

And Australians ?  Gasp!   It would totally fragment English- for better or worse.

 "Romance" languages?  Italian, Spanish, Romanian, and on and on all evolved from Classical Latin.

No biggy- but what if Alabama and New York had different alphabets??   How would one effectively communicate to BOTH states in one message?  What alphabet would a hypothetical future President of the US use?

Different transliterations for each state?   And how about racial accents, and even our new neighbors from different countries with different pronunciations in their "accents"?  Which alphabet do they use, or use one for each pronunciation that happens to work best for their individual accents?  Even simply among say, the Latinos, differ in Spanish- so what?  Different transliterations for each accent?

This fragments the utility of English itself world wide.

I don't get it.

Symbols are symbols.   It's not like the change would help kids spell- they would just need to learn multiple spellings for each pronunciation!

That's the opposite of making it easier to learn reading!

And how many different dictionaries do you have to use to get the "correct" spelling or develop a NEW UNIFIED alphabet for all accents?

Uh, we already have that!

Accent doesn't matter, since there is no "correct" spelling.  A kid can write whatever he likes in whatever spelling makes sense to him, which is not how you and I probably learned how to read and write.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/16/2025 at 7:26 PM, Mfbnew said:

Absolutely true!

We need to realize that it is ALL philosophy and no "theology".

Of course it is inspired- so what?  Is it impossible for "theology" to be revelation?

Pure pragmatism, which is all that matters in the universe.  Which is why the Brethren don't think that Latter-day Saints need a university-level theological seminary.  My grandad had degrees from Ohio Wesleyan and from Boston University School of Theology (also MLK Jr's school), but then he wanted to be and did become a Methodist Minister.

On 2/16/2025 at 7:26 PM, Mfbnew said:

God is an embodied man?   What does that do to the way he thinks- or is his human brain no long operable? 

I like to think of God as an enhanced human -- the final stage of human evolution.

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, Stargazer said:

English's problem is similar to French's. I don't know if the source of French's problem is the same as English's, though. English spelling was largely settled at a point before there was a major pronunciation shift. And there has been a gradual and continual shift ever since them. For example, blood and food used to be rhymable. And there's another RobWords video talking about that!

.....................................

Yeh.  French is just bad Latin.

We also see vowel shifts in proto-Semitic and Semitic languages.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Are you the Bob Smith on Quora with profile at https://www.quora.com/profile/Bob-Smith-3106 ? If so, I am the Mike Clark with profile at https://www.quora.com/profile/Mike-Clark-153 ! And I'm one of your followers on Quora.

Yep, you got my number, Mike.  I am now following you as well.  If you were not in Sussex, I'd have asked whether you were one of my Clark cousins here in the USA.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yep, you got my number, Mike.  I am now following you as well.  If you were not in Sussex, I'd have asked whether you were one of my Clark cousins here in the USA.

He started in the States, but moved to England awhile back for marriage.  Also a convert.

Testing my memory, he was either in Washington or Oregon before he moved….leaning towards Oregon.

Edited February 18, 2025 by Calm

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yep, you got my number, Mike.  I am now following you as well.  If you were not in Sussex, I'd have asked whether you were one of my Clark cousins here in the USA.

It's possible we're cousins. As to how close, who knows? 

4 hours ago, Calm said:

He started in the States, but moved to England awhile back for marriage.  Also a convert.

Testing my memory, he was either in Washington or Oregon before he moved….leaning towards Oregon.

Washington, actually. Specifically Olympia, from 1984 to 2017, although I was born in Los Angeles. 

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

It's possible we're cousins. As to how close, who knows? 

Washington, actually. Specifically Olympia, from 1984 to 2017, although I was born in Los Angeles. 

Blast it, so close…. 😛 

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yep, you got my number, Mike.  I am now following you as well.  If you were not in Sussex, I'd have asked whether you were one of my Clark cousins here in the USA.

My wife tells me that everyone seems to be my cousin. When I moved to England after our marriage, I found that our bishop at the time was a distant cousin. In fact, King Charles III is a 14th cousin three times removed. I'm still waiting for my invitation to court.

According to RelativeFinder.org (through FamilySearch.org) every single LDS church president is a cousin of mine in one degree or another. Joseph Smith, for example, is a 5th cousin 5 times removed. I'm also a cousin to 42 out of 45 US presidents, including George W. Bush, Barack Obama, and Donald Trump. When I say 45 US presidents, there may be some confusion because Trump is numbered as 47. This is because presidential numbering counts one president twice if he had two terms that were interrupted by a different president. Before Trump, only Grover Cleveland had two terms that were so interrupted. In Cleveland's case, it was Benjamin Harrison.

[Kenngo1969]

On 2/18/2025 at 3:17 AM, Calm said:

Blast it, so close…. 😛 

Can't help observing, here, (so forgive the irrelevant [irreverent?  ] diversion), that that's what one of my law professors used to do: He would ask a yes-or-no, a-or-b, two-option question, and, if-and-when we picked the wrong one, he would say, "So close!"   But he was funnier than heck, so when I figured out that my grades in law school were going to suck regardless, I decided to take more classes from him for the entertainment value alone.  If I was going to pay a fortune to get marginal grades in law school, I figured I might as well be entertained in the process!    

Edited February 19, 2025 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

On 2/18/2025 at 5:40 AM, Stargazer said:

My wife tells me that everyone seems to be my cousin. When I moved to England after our marriage, I found that our bishop at the time was a distant cousin. In fact, King Charles III is a 14th cousin three times removed. I'm still waiting for my invitation to court.

According to RelativeFinder.org (through FamilySearch.org) every single LDS church president is a cousin of mine in one degree or another. Joseph Smith, for example, is a 5th cousin 5 times removed. I'm also a cousin to 42 out of 45 US presidents, including George W. Bush, Barack Obama, and Donald Trump. When I say 45 US presidents, there may be some confusion because Trump is numbered as 47. This is because presidential numbering counts one president twice if he had two terms that were interrupted by a different president. Before Trump, only Grover Cleveland had two terms that were so interrupted. In Cleveland's case, it was Benjamin Harrison.

Could you correspond with the King?  (I'm sure that would only breach about fifteen different protocols, but ... )  "Your Highness, what, with such a vast empire to run, I'm sure it simply has slipped your mind ..."    

[Stargazer]

26 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Could you correspond with the King?  (I'm sure that would only breach about fifteen different protocols, but ... )  "Your Highness, what, with such a vast empire to run, I'm sure it simply has slipped your mind ..."    

Actually, I did this a few years ago when he was just Prince of Wales. Just for the fun of it. Of course I got a form letter in response, thanking me for my communication. My Dad actually met him back in 1970 at an aviation event (a press conference about the Concorde aircraft). He told us that he was surprised at the insightful questions the Prince asked the presenters. Dad expected him to be a royal ignoramus, I think. 

There's no protocol, as such. I gather that he gets correspondence from people all over the globe.