New Church Video - Repentance

[manol]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

First question I have is are they doomed to stay in Hell until they are completely purified of sin, past, present, and future….even if they desire to leave so much they become willing to accept Christ as their Saviour?  Since God’s purpose in providing eternal torment and punishment in hell appears to be to turn people to Christ so they can accept him seems likely to me anyone turning to Christ, even if in Hell, is heard.  

Second question I have is if we are capable of turning to Christ at that point (when we are in Hell in the afterlife).

Is our doctrine once someone is in hell, they are stuck there till all sin and desire to sin is purged from them or do we allow for mid process change of heart?  The more personal descriptions of people suffering in hell when alive such as Alma gives indicates at least in mortality clearly suggest that our experience of hell is ended when we reach out to Christ to save us. (Mosiah 27)

I don’t know of any doctrine that teaches our hearts will be so hardened after death those who have rejected Christ as Saviour and are in Hell will never accept Christ.  Anyone else know of any such doctrine?

Alma the Younger's experience tracks the reports of numerous near-death experiencers so closely that the one is arguably independent evidence of the other.  Howard Storm comes to mind, if anyone would like to read (or listen to, on YouTube) an Alma-the-Younger-style NDE. 

My opinion is that hells are experiences the soul chooses to change its trajectory.  And judging by the accounts of Alma the Younger, Howard Storm, and many others, hells serve that purpose very well.

If the worth of souls really is "great", then imo we can reasonably assume that the Good Shepherd never gives up. 

Perhaps there is a divine GPS in play, whereby if you make a mistake and take a wrong turn, the system "recalibrates" so that there is still a route you can take to get back Home.  Even if you make one hell of a wrong turn.

Why would we want anything less for anyone? 

Edited January 23, 2025 by manol

[Nofear]

22 hours ago, Calm said:

What kind of repentance are we talking here?

I think we could say the kind of repentance that leads us to a situation where we don't have to pay the price of justice for sins committed (ie justification). There is a point/time in our progression when the opportunity to partake of the Atonement and be justified is past and the justice of sin will be upon us.

There is also the aspect of repentance that leads to our sanctification, the fundamental changing of our character through the technology of the Atonement (ie sanctification).

For those that don't believe in "kingdom hopping" there is only a finite opportunity for either form of repentance. For those that are open to the idea of "kingdom hopping" the Atonement doesn't have an expiration and only the former has expiration (last judgment). I happen to fall in the latter category. Failure to repent of my mortal sins committed may mean that I will face the justice of my actions and being unclean unable to enter into the presence of God or be a participant of Celestial Society. But, I'm open to the idea that I'm not eternally damned* and unable to progress.

 

* Well, I could still say I'd be or was eternally damned, but as the D&C points out, eternal damnation doesn't necessarily mean endless damnation without end.

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Nofear said:

Atonement doesn't have an expiration and only the former has expiration (last judgment)

I don’t think it’s the last judgment when Justice kicks in because that is when we are assigned to kingdoms of glory so by then we need to be sinless, do we not?  Unless we are Perdition, which few will be.

Since it is likely that God knows our hearts and what we would choose if given the chance, I would not be surprised if we are immediately in hell when we die if that will be what we choose (refusing the Atonement) or in Spirit Prison or Paradise if we have accepted the Gospel to the point necessary to be in either.  At that point, I believe we are only locked into hell until we are purged of sin if we refuse to repent and accept the Atonement.  I don’t see any reason why someone can’t regret even if only because of the pain (suffering caused by guilt and shame imo, we self torture)and could reach out to God to ask to be saved even if at that time they didn’t want to leave sin behind to be good, but still were willing to be obedient to escape the suffering.  And then God helps they move from obedience to love as much as they are capable.

NDEs seems to indicate one is heading off to hell at death if one deserves it.

Edited January 24, 2025 by Calm

[JVW]

On 1/22/2025 at 8:19 PM, manol said:

I think that ideally the teacher meets the student wherever the student is at that time.

For those who are willing and eager students, or even disciples, that will be in a different place from those who are disinterested or otherwise unwilling students.

So perhaps I should have said, “Imo good teachers need not engender fear in their willing and eager students.”

Sometimes fearful language may be the only language that has a good chance of getting through if the student is disinterested or otherwise unwilling (again, D&C 19:6-12).

I understand what you're saying but I'm not sure whether or not I agree with it. I think its possible that fear can be a powerful motivating tool to assist in those pursuing excellence. Imagine the fear an Olympic athlete has competing at the world level or the pianist trying to get accepted into a prestigious music school as they prepare for their performance exam.

I'd also like to point out what Christ said that's recorded in two of the Gospels:

Quote

Matthew 10:26-31 Fear them not therefore ... And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:4-5 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

I know that LDS church leaders have basically interpreted the word "fear" as a synonym for "respect" but I disagree with that. People don't submit to those who threaten to "kill the body" out of respect, awe, or admiration. They do it because they are afraid. There are many verses across all of the standard works in the LDS church encouraging everyone to fear God. Consider the following:

Quote

Philippians 2:12 ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Mormon 9:27 ... come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him.

Ecclesiastes 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Hebrews 12:28-29 ... we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

I think that there is sufficient evidence to suggest that Jesus wants His disciples, and everyone else, to fear God. But I would also suggest that this is a paradox, because for some reason when someone is afraid of God He takes that fear and replaces it with power and love.

Quote

2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

I think this article is really interesting on the topic of fearing God. https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-based-teaching-from-israel/why-is-it-good-to-fear-god/

In addition to all of this, I'd like to present the idea that something that is fearful for one person may be pleasant for another. Consider these verses from the Book of Mormon:

Quote

Jacob 6:9-13 ... Finally, I bid you farewell, until I shall meet you before the pleasing bar of God, which bar striketh the wicked with awful dread and fear. Amen.

Moroni 10:32-34 ... I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen.

Jacob 3:2-3 O all ye that are pure in heart, lift up your heads and receive the pleasing word of God, and feast upon his love; for ye may, if your minds are firm, forever. But, wo, wo, unto you that are not pure in heart, that are filthy this day before God ...

Judgment day will be a great and terrible day, just as the Second Coming will be both great and terrible. It depends on who someone is as to how great or terrible these events will be for them, or how much fear the concept of a deadline on repentance strikes in one's heart.

 

On 1/22/2025 at 8:19 PM, manol said:

In my opinion accountability is inevitable. Everything we think or imagine, our attitudes, our words and actions, all of that has effects. I am accountable for these words I'm writing, and also for the thoughts I did not write. Imo we are accountable for all of the ripples we radiate out into the pond. That being said, I do not think God inflicts punishment beyond natural consequences. If you flunk the class you flunk the class; you don't need to be tortured too. On the contrary, you probably need a tutor. I'm not saying that's practical, but wouldn't it be nice if our failures were met with sufficient help rather than rejection?

I mostly agree with you here. I don't think God ever rejects anyone, but we reject God and therein lies our punishment.

[manol]

@JVW, thank you for having this conversation with me.  This is arguably some heavy stuff.  I have opinions and am only sure of one of them:  I am highly fallible!!

 

4 hours ago, JVW said:

I'd also like to point out what Christ said that's recorded in two of the Gospels:

Matthew 10:26-31 Fear them not therefore ... And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:4-5 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

I'm not sure what to make of that teaching because, to me, it seems to not be completely consistent with other teachings which I believe come from Christ.  To be more specific, I think “look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not” (D&C 6:36) is a higher teaching.  I think that is where we are supposed to be, rather than in fear.

Now if someone finds genuine utility in fearing God, then it is not my place to interfere... and it is highly unlikely I would be able to change anyone's minds on the subject, as that's the sort of belief people would need a really powerful reason to step away from!  Imo it would probably take a transformational experience, or at least something vastly more compelling than an anonymous post on an internet forum, to shift someone's perception from “I have good reason to fear God” to “I have no reason to fear God”.

My interpretation of the First and Great Commandment is a highly unorthodox one, and I believe it contains a magnificent hidden teaching:

The First and Great Commandment says that we are to love God with all our heart, with all our soul, and with all our mind... in other words, completely and without reservation.  So here is my first question: Can a person love that which they fear?  And the answer is... yes, sometimes, kinda sorta.  So let me rephrase: Can a person love that which they fear with all their heart, all their soul, and all their mind (i.e. completely and without reservation)?  And obviously the answer is, no.

Next question: Would Christ give us a commandment, in particular a First and Great Commandment, which is impossible for us to keep?  Nephi didn't think so (“he giveth no commandment unto the children of men save he shall prepare a way for them, that they may accomplish the thing that he commandeth them”), and neither do I.

So, in my opinion, the ONLY WAY it could be possible for us keep the First and Great Commandment, and to love God completely and without reservation, would be if we actually have no valid reason to fear God!

Imo this is the great teaching hidden in plain sight in the First and Great Commandment.  Imo this is part of the “good news” of the Gospel... not of the introductory “fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” Gospel; but of the higher “perfect love casts out fear” Gospel .  We still have a ton of work to do!  But from the big picture perspective, imo we have nothing to fear.

To the best of my ability, I see all of the law and the prophets through the lens of the First and Great Commandment (as well as through the lens of the Second, which is like unto it).  BUT I do not expect you or anyone else to adopt this highly unorthodox perspective without having a really compelling reason to do so, and that is something I cannot provide.

Imo that one thought – that we have no need to fear God – may not, in and of itself, transform the world we see. Imo that transformation requires deliberate, consistent, focused, and maintained mental effort, along with making quick correction every time we notice that correction is called for.  Which looks sort of like this teaching: “Look to me in every thought; doubt not, fear not.”

In my (highly fallible) opinion.

[manol]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Since it is likely that God knows our hearts and what we would choose if given the chance, I would not be surprised if we are immediately in hell when we die if that will be what we choose (refusing the Atonement) or in Spirit Prison or Paradise if we have accepted the Gospel to the point necessary to be in either.  At that point, I believe we are only locked into hell until we are purged of sin if we refuse to repent and accept the Atonement.  I don’t see any reason why someone can’t regret even if only because of the pain (suffering caused by guilt and shame imo, we self torture)and could reach out to God to ask to be saved even if at that time they didn’t want to leave sin behind to be good, but still were willing to be obedient to escape the suffering.  And then God helps they move from obedience to love as much as they are capable.

NDEs seems to indicate one is heading off to hell at death if one deserves it.

[initiating speculation sequence] I agree with you that hells are actually temporary, even though they evidently seem to be eternal while they are being experienced.  The impression I get from NDE accounts, and from Alma the Younger, is that hells are extreme teaching devices, highly effective at persuading a person to change their trajectory.  So here is what comes to mind:

Maybe hells are actually safety nets, which are so overwhelmingly unpleasant not for the sake of punishment, but rather to get us to choose to change our trajectory when we otherwise would not choose to do so.  [/speculation]

Edited January 25, 2025 by manol

[Calm]

3 hours ago, manol said:

Maybe hells are actually safety nets, which are so overwhelmingly unpleasant not for the sake of punishment, but rather to get us to choose to change our trajectory when we otherwise would not choose to do so.

I have always consider the purpose of hell is to teach just as is the purpose of spirit prison.

[manol]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

I have always consider the purpose of hell is to teach just as is the purpose of spirit prison.

Yes!!!

The "teaching" part makes no sense if hell is permanent, but if it's not, then imo that's what makes the most sense. 

[let’s roll]

On 1/23/2025 at 10:41 AM, Nevo said:

Yes, it is possible to procrastinate the day of our repentance until it is too late—not because God will ever refuse to accept us, but only because we can eventually, through our own choices, lose all desire.

This.   Too late, I believe has little, or nothing, to do with time and more, or everything to do with the ability to muster the requisite desire to repent.  And while I believe the love of Deity is sufficient to warm even the coldest of hearts, if one ascribes no value to the fruits of repentance, that love may well be eternally unrequited.

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Too late, I believe has little, or nothing, to do with time and more, or everything to do with the ability to muster the requisite desire to repent.

This is how I view the idea of the issue with delaying one’s repentance…we turn ourselves into people who don’t care enough to repent of hurting others.

However, given my own experience of quite a bit of anguish for even relatively minor guilt, though more of not doing enough good rather than sinning, if my experience is a small hint of the potential suffering sin can bring down upon us, I find it very hard to believe that someone could get to the point where they prefer to suffer the type of anguish Alma describes because they can’t muster enough care to repent.  Surely even the most hardened find that level of emotional pain difficult to endure even if their spirit is too deadened to feel shame or guilt at distancing themselves from their God and would look for ways to remove the pain.  When they realize the only way to remove it is to turn to God, it is beyond my imagination to conceive they might refuse.  But I suppose the possibility is there given what some scripture says.

I have considered the possibility that one could become so uncaring that one no longer experiences guilt or feels shame when one hurts others, but if that is so, then would the suffering that the wicked who reject Christ as Saviour even exist?  What would then cause the anguish of the soul, the pain of hell that Alma describes?

Edited January 25, 2025 by Calm

[let’s roll]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

This is how I view the idea of the issue with delaying one’s repentance…we turn ourselves into people who don’t care enough to repent of hurting others.

However, given my own experience of quite a bit of anguish for even relatively minor guilt, though more of not doing enough good rather than sinning, if my experience is a small hint of the potential suffering sin can bring down upon us, I find it very hard to believe that someone could get to the point where they prefer to suffer the type of anguish Alma describes because they can’t muster enough care to repent.  Surely even the most hardened find that level of emotional pain difficult to endure even if their spirit is too deadened to feel shame or guilt at distancing themselves from their God and would look for ways to remove the pain.  When they realize the only way to remove it is to turn to God, it is beyond my imagination to conceive they might refuse.  But I suppose the possibility is there given what some scripture says.

I have considered the possibility that one could become so uncaring that one no longer experiences guilt or feels shame when one hurts others, but if that is so, then would the suffering that the wicked who reject Christ as Saviour even exist?  What would then cause the anguish of the soul, the pain of hell that Alma describes?

Thanks for your thoughtful response.  I don’t pretend to have all the answers, I ponder many of the same questions you set out above.  What follows is my understanding of those questions in its current state of refinement, I expect it to be further refined over time.

13 hours ago, Calm said:

 

The desire and quest for love, comfort and power motivate many decisions and actions of God’s children.  Almost everyone is an amalgamation of all three…for example I relate to your description of your experience which to me reflects someone principally motivated by a love of God, whose quest to continually experience that love occasionally bumps up against the pull of comfortable surroundings and activities that make difficult the sacrificing and stretching attendant to consistently deepening discipleship.

13 hours ago, Calm said:

given my own experience of quite a bit of anguish for even relatively minor guilt, though more of not doing enough good rather than sinning, if my experience is a small hint of the potential suffering sin can bring down upon us, I find it very hard to believe that someone could get to the point where they prefer to suffer the type of anguish Alma describes because they can’t muster enough care to repent.

Alma’s description seems to me to come from one in whom the light of Christ is still alive, who recognizes the benefits of the influence of Holy Ghost, and is familiar with Divine love and nature…in short, he was not beyond feeling the Divine.  In fact his experiences with the Divine had left such a deep impression that turning away from those experiences resulted in a darkness so different than the light he had experienced, that he was highly motivated to change.

But one whose experience with Deity hasn’t left exquisite memories may see Deity as more intimidating than welcoming. For them, comfort may become their chief motivator.  And for those who don’t in this life come to recognize that joining God in His work means an eternity filled with both Godly joy and Godly sorrow, will see that clearly in the world to come.  And while His reality and love will no longer be in dispute…if lesser kingdoms offer the equivalent of an eternity on a beach in Maui with likeminded comfort seekers, that may well prove a stronger draw.  For them, the depth of the love they have for, and the love they feel from, God isn’t enough to overcome their fear and anxiety about what they would need to do and what they would experience if they join God in His work…the familiar more appealing than the unknown.

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I have considered the possibility that one could become so uncaring that one no longer experiences guilt or feels shame when one hurts others, but if that is so, then would the suffering that the wicked who reject Christ as Saviour even exist?  What would then cause the anguish of the soul, the pain of hell that Alma describes?

I think Lucifer is the prototype for this group…sociopathic tendencies remove all the guilt and shame.  What remains is an unquenchable lust for power.  Satan may have some remnants of pain and sorrow from his estrangement from his Father, but I believe his most exquisite pain is knowing that he will never prevail…his victories will never be sufficient…he has perfect knowledge that he will never become what he wants so desperately to become.  Those who follow him will know the same.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2025 by let’s roll

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

.  For them, the depth of the love they have for, and the love they feel from, God isn’t enough to overcome their fear and anxiety about what they would need to do and what they would experience if they join God in His work

I can see that for rejection of the Celestial Kingdom and quite possibly the Terrestial Kingdom.  It is hard for me to see it as a reason to accept just enough of the Atonement, of Christ’s sacrifice for us, to escape the pain of Hell.  I would think the fear and anxiety of the suffering to come would be greater than the fear and anxiety of accepting the minimal ‘requirement’ of God’s love to get his help with repentance and thus escape the pain/anguish of Hell.

But perhaps there is an awareness of exactly how much suffering they will have to undergo in Hell before becoming sinless.  And that awareness makes it bearable.  Seems unlikely, but could be I guess.

Your summary of Lucifer does seem the most likely option of not choosing Christ as one’s Saviour, if only enough to leave Hell…and that is because one cannot leave Hell even if one accepted Christ in some fashion because that would require letting go of the desire for power and that has become part of one’s being…or always was, it just couldn’t be expressed in the limited beings we were before.

[JVW]

On 1/24/2025 at 7:56 PM, manol said:

@JVW, thank you for having this conversation with me.  This is arguably some heavy stuff.  I have opinions and am only sure of one of them:  I am highly fallible!!

Likewise. It's enjoyable to chat with you.

On 1/24/2025 at 7:56 PM, manol said:

I'm not sure what to make of that teaching because, to me, it seems to not be completely consistent with other teachings which I believe come from Christ.  To be more specific, I think “look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not” (D&C 6:36) is a higher teaching.  I think that is where we are supposed to be, rather than in fear.

I'm not sure how to reconcile this either. Maybe different kinds of fear are implicit in the context. In the Gospels he is talking about responding to someone out of a fear of being killed. In the D&C 6 verse he may be talking about being afraid to trust out of fear of being hurt. For the record, there are at least two instances in the D&C that I believe are not God's word and are contradictory to passages in the Bible and/or Book of Mormon, so I place higher value on the NT than I do the D&C. This is not one of those cases, but if the same contextual fear is spoken of I will believe the Gospels over the D&C. It is also worth noting that, as far as I can tell, there's no JST for the NT verses.

You mentioned a "higher teaching" I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that there's some teaching that are only applicable to new converts and then as someone becomes closer to Jesus those teachings don't apply anymore or get superseded?

On 1/24/2025 at 7:56 PM, manol said:

Now if someone finds genuine utility in fearing God, then it is not my place to interfere... and it is highly unlikely I would be able to change anyone's minds on the subject, as that's the sort of belief people would need a really powerful reason to step away from!  Imo it would probably take a transformational experience, or at least something vastly more compelling than an anonymous post on an internet forum, to shift someone's perception from “I have good reason to fear God” to “I have no reason to fear God”.

I personally am not afraid of God. The reason I am no longer an atheist is because God revealed Himself to me and so I personally know the truth that God is love. But fearing God is something I desire to feel. Approaching God's throne with fear and trembling would make receiving mercy and love that much more beautiful of an experience.

This is probably not reality, but I feel like conceptually, someone who isn't afraid of God doesn't feel like God will punish them for their sins. Or that the sins they've committed aren't wrong or aren't a big deal. As I reflect on how I feel about God and my own journey, I think I treat my misdeeds in a very light manner and overly focus on God's love and mercy instead of the justice that is surely coming my way if I don't repent. But I'm just speaking for myself here. I tend to focus much more on the good that I do than the bad and consequently rarely approach God in humility seeking forgiveness.

On 1/24/2025 at 7:56 PM, manol said:

The First and Great Commandment says that we are to love God with all our heart, with all our soul, and with all our mind... in other words, completely and without reservation.  So here is my first question: Can a person love that which they fear?  And the answer is... yes, sometimes, kinda sorta.  So let me rephrase: Can a person love that which they fear with all their heart, all their soul, and all their mind (i.e. completely and without reservation)?  And obviously the answer is, no.

That's a good question. I don't know whether or not I agree with your conclusion because we may have different definitions of complete love without reservation. For example, I would say that my kids love me. I don't know if it's completely and without reservation because they are selfish, but they are unconditional in their affection. Yet I can imagine any of my kids in a scenario in which a friend tempts them to do something dumb and they think in their mind "if my dad found out I would get in so much trouble" and they'd feel some guilt and fear about getting caught. That sort of thing. But if they did have those thoughts would their love be in the "complete" category? IDK. The question you present is an interesting one to consider.

On 1/24/2025 at 7:56 PM, manol said:

Next question: Would Christ give us a commandment, in particular a First and Great Commandment, which is impossible for us to keep?  Nephi didn't think so (“he giveth no commandment unto the children of men save he shall prepare a way for them, that they may accomplish the thing that he commandeth them”), and neither do I.

I think there is a caveat here. A commandment may be impossible to keep *without being one with Christ*. I cannot have perfect love for God or my fellowman without being one with Christ, I believe it is impossible as the natural man is an enemy to God, and even with my best efforts my love would not be pure. So it may be that the fear of God leads to Christ, and then Christ purifies and blesses His disciples with Charity which perfect love casteth out all fear. But no disciple is perfect, so there would always be an element of fear that motivates one to seek Christ.

I attended a fireside last night and the general sentiment expressed was that wounds/suffering/addiction are what lead to Christ. I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. It is only the broken that can be repaired and I view a lot of Christ's ministry in the NT as trying to help people see just how broken they are. The thing with being hurt is that the scar that's left tends to come with some baggage of fear.

On 1/24/2025 at 7:56 PM, manol said:

So, in my opinion, the ONLY WAY it could be possible for us keep the First and Great Commandment, and to love God completely and without reservation, would be if we actually have no valid reason to fear God!

Here is how I would rephrase this statement "So, in my opinion, the ONLY WAY it could be possible for us keep the First and Great Commandment, and to love God completely and without reservation is through unity with Christ!"

On 1/24/2025 at 7:56 PM, manol said:

Imo this is the great teaching hidden in plain sight in the First and Great Commandment.  Imo this is part of the “good news” of the Gospel... not of the introductory “fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” Gospel; but of the higher “perfect love casts out fear” Gospel .  We still have a ton of work to do!  But from the big picture perspective, imo we have nothing to fear.

The Gospel = the good news that Christ conquered death and sin and will advocate for anyone who follows Him. So adding my view to your words we have nothing to fear if we are sincerely seeking Jesus Christ.

On 1/24/2025 at 7:56 PM, manol said:

To the best of my ability, I see all of the law and the prophets through the lens of the First and Great Commandment (as well as through the lens of the Second, which is like unto it).  BUT I do not expect you or anyone else to adopt this highly unorthodox perspective without having a really compelling reason to do so, and that is something I cannot provide.

I think your view is not entirely unorthodox and I like your view on it.

On 1/24/2025 at 7:56 PM, manol said:

Imo that one thought – that we have no need to fear God – may not, in and of itself, transform the world we see. Imo that transformation requires deliberate, consistent, focused, and maintained mental effort, along with making quick correction every time we notice that correction is called for.  Which looks sort of like this teaching: “Look to me in every thought; doubt not, fear not.”

In my (highly fallible) opinion.

Nice opinion. I enjoyed reading it.

[manol]

On 1/27/2025 at 1:45 PM, JVW said:

You mentioned a "higher teaching" I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that there's some teaching that are only applicable to new converts and then as someone becomes closer to Jesus those teachings don't apply anymore or get superseded?

Yes, something like that.

D&C 19:6-12 introduces the idea of lower and higher teachings, though it doesn't use that wording. These verses say that terminology such as “eternal punishment” and “endless punishment” is used for effect, but the higher truth is that the punishment itself is not actually “endless” or “eternal”, and this higher truth was something Christ taught to his apostles. 

The book of Proverbs teaches that “fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” (or “of knowledge”, depending on which verse we're looking at). First John teaches that “perfect love casts out fear”, so fear and perfect love are mutually exclusive; they do not co-exist. My conclusion is that “fear of the Lord” is only the beginning; it's a starting-point on the path. It is a useful lens to see the world through in order to get one started in the right direction. But imo it is not the destination the path ultimately leads us to. Imo “perfect love casts out fear” is descriptive of what the path leads us to, and is a lens though which we begin to see a very different world than the one which fear showed us.

Here is another example of there being a lower versus a higher teaching on a subject:  The LDS Church teaches that Jesus' reply to the Sadducees about the woman who was married seven times (he said that “in the heavens they neither marry nor are given in marriage”) was a lesser law, and that Celestial Marriage is the higher law.

Edited January 29, 2025 by manol