"Be fruitful and multiply" for people who are infertile

[The Nehor]

“I have no doubt but concubinage will yet be practiced in this church, but I had not thought of it in this connection. When the nations are troubled good women will come here for safety and blessing, and men will accept them as concubines.” -Lorenzo Snow

Oh boy…..

[telnetd]

On 4/3/2024 at 12:13 PM, Pyreaux said:

Polygyny wasn't necessarily abolished in the New Testament; it was outlawed in Roman law. I'm not actually suggesting bringing it back as the solution to infertility, I'm saying it definitely was a solution. A barren wife fulfilled the commandment by going to lengths to find a surrogate mother, and therefore any like-examples of Surrogate Parenting surely must fulfill the commandment also. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't believe Christians are under an obligation to have a surrogate mother or father.
Getting married and having children is not God's plan for everyone in the New Testament.
There are blessings and advantages to remaining single.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

I don't believe Christians are under an obligation to have a surrogate mother or father.
Getting married and having children is not God's plan for everyone in the New Testament.
There are blessings and advantages to remaining single.

I think the New Testament can be read to say that getting married and having children is God's ultimate goal for everyone. The practical teachings indicate that marriage and children may not be attained in this life for various reasons, and there are times in our lives when we are not ready or able to marry and have children. We are thus advised to serve Him under our present circumstances rather than to serve ourselves by marrying and having children at the wrong time or for reasons related to cultural expectations or lack of faith.

[Pyreaux]

5 hours ago, telnetd said:

I don't believe Christians are under an obligation to have a surrogate mother or father.
Getting married and having children is not God's plan for everyone in the New Testament.
There are blessings and advantages to remaining single.

Jesus forbid divorce by repeating the command of Adam to marry.

Matt 19:

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

He even makes exceptions for to those born deformed, were involuntarily castrated or if a Jew made a religious/Nazarite (temporary) vow of celibacy (as literal castration is forbidden for Jews [Deut. 23:2]), those able to marry should marry.

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Those who are not able to receive it are not obligated to abide such a strict law. The same goes for us today.

Christ renewed the everlasting covenant of Abraham, which is the covenant of Adam. God command His people to reproduce and then rule over the land that He gives them. 

Adam’s Royal Covenant Offspring

When God placed Adam and Eve in the garden, He commanded them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion” over all creation (Genesis 1:28). This command is known as the Cultural Mandate. As those made in the “image of God,” Adam and Eve were God’s vice-regents. (“Image” is tied with “dominion” in Genesis 1:26-28). They were to fill the earth with godly offspring and rule on the earth (Psalm 8:5-6).

Abraham’s Offspring

God repeatedly promised Abraham offspring and a land for them to dwell in (Genesis 12:7; 13:15; 15:18; 17:8). Abraham was promised dominion in that he would be “the father of a multitude of nations” and have “kings” come from him (Genesis 17:4-6). "I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. (Genesis 22:17-18).

God made Ishmael “fruitful” (Genesis 16:10; 17:20; 21:13). God reaffirmed the Abrahamic covenant to Isaac and his offspring (Genesis 17:19; 26:3-4, 24) and then to Jacob and his offspring (Genesis 28:4, 13-14; 35:12). Israel is told "Be fruitful and multiply. A nation and a company of nations shall come from you, and kings shall come from your own body. The land that I gave to Abraham and Isaac I will give to you, and I will give the land to your offspring after you" (Genesis 35:11-12).

David’s Offspring

David's covenant (Psalm 89:3-4) was a royal promise that built on the Abrahamic covenant, again promising land (2 Samuel 7:10) and offspring: "When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom" (2 Samuel 7:12).

Christ the Offspring

The New Testament emphasizes, Jesus is the offspring of both Abraham and David (Matthew 1:1). The Baptismal rebirth is how Jesus adopts us, Paul therefore concludes that those who belong to Christ “are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise” which includes offspring (Galatians 3:29). As Jesus commands His church to “make disciples of all nations” (Matthew 28:18-20) Christ is the biggest surrogate parent of all.

You might agree, covenant marriage remains a Christian institution, a covenant intended for the raising of godly offspring (Malachi 2:14-15). Children are a covenant blessing (Psalm 127:3-5) and raising them “in the discipline and instruction of the Lord” remains one of the best ways for the church to produce disciples of Christ (Ephesians 6:4). There are other ways to be fruitful in the eyes of God.

Edited April 5, 2024 by Pyreaux

[telnetd]

On 4/5/2024 at 3:23 PM, Pyreaux said:

Matt 19:

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

He even makes exceptions for to those born deformed, were involuntarily castrated or if a Jew made a religious/Nazarite (temporary) vow of celibacy (as literal castration is forbidden for Jews [Deut. 23:2]), those able to marry should marry.

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Those who are not able to receive it are not obligated to abide such a strict law. The same goes for us today.

What did you mean by appending (temporary) to the Nazarite vow? Is that an indication
you believe Christ had physical offspring in the past or will do so in the future or both?

Some single people are not able to receive that strictness of marriage so they choose to
remain single.  They are a blessing too.  That is why Christ did not condemn the eunuchs
who chose to remain celibate for the kingdom of heaven's sake.  Same way Paul said it
would be better for single men or women or widows to remain single as he was.

 

On 4/5/2024 at 3:23 PM, Pyreaux said:

You might agree, covenant marriage remains a Christian institution, a covenant intended for the raising of godly offspring (Malachi 2:14-15). Children are a covenant blessing (Psalm 127:3-5) and raising them “in the discipline and instruction of the Lord” remains one of the best ways for the church to produce disciples of Christ (Ephesians 6:4).

What about all those Christians whom Joseph Smith said were told by God to have many
wives and concubines?

[telnetd]

On 4/5/2024 at 11:25 AM, CV75 said:

I think the New Testament can be read to say that getting married and having children is God's ultimate goal for everyone. The practical teachings indicate that marriage and children may not be attained in this life for various reasons, and there are times in our lives when we are not ready or able to marry and have children. We are thus advised to serve Him under our present circumstances rather than to serve ourselves by marrying and having children at the wrong time or for reasons related to cultural expectations or lack of faith.

Is getting married and having children a present or future goal for Jesus?

[CV75]

15 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Is getting married and having children a present or future goal for Jesus?

How do you mean, a goal for Him personally or for you personally?

[Stargazer]

On 4/3/2024 at 7:20 PM, The Nehor said:

“I have no doubt but concubinage will yet be practiced in this church, but I had not thought of it in this connection. When the nations are troubled good women will come here for safety and blessing, and men will accept them as concubines.” -Lorenzo Snow

Oh boy…..

Then we're safe here in the UK.

[Stargazer]

You know, something occurred to me in connection with this topic.

It was: "Run and not be weary; walk and not faint" for people who were born without legs.

[Pyreaux]

On 4/8/2024 at 9:23 AM, telnetd said:

What did you mean by appending (temporary) to the Nazarite vow? Is that an indication
you believe Christ had physical offspring in the past or will do so in the future or both?

Some single people are not able to receive that strictness of marriage so they choose to
remain single.  They are a blessing too.  That is why Christ did not condemn the eunuchs
who chose to remain celibate for the kingdom of heaven's sake.  Same way Paul said it
would be better for single men or women or widows to remain single as he was.

What about all those Christians whom Joseph Smith said were told by God to have many
wives and concubines?

I was saying there were no Jews castrating themselves for God, but Nazarites sometimes made celibacy vows, but Nazarite vows were almost always temporary. Lifetime vows from birth like Sampson's were freak rare. A Nazarite who vows not to bath or cut his hair would be absolved of Jewish laws about washing.

There is historic lore of Mary Magdalene and her brother Lazarus fleeing to Egypt for 8 years, then arriving on the shores of France with an 8-year-old girl in tow who was called Sarah the Egyptian (not because she's an Egyptian, its where she was born/from), who became Sarah the Black Queen of the Franks (black, not because she was necessarily black, but historically she's assumed to be an Egyptian), she is served by the Knights Templar. This goes into Holy Grail lore that Sarah is the holy grail, the vessel that holds the blood of Jesus. But I digress.

However, I will assume the common belief that Jesus was an exception to his own commandments and remained single and childless. Or he has fulfilled it in alternate ways. That he's married to the church, and every baptism is Jesus adopting a new child. Therefore, according to the Law of Adoption he has begotten many children. A long way just to say, missionary work is an alternate way of fulfilling the commandment, and you are excused if you are a eunuch.

Lam say-say eunichy... snip snip.

Edited April 10, 2024 by Pyreaux

[telnetd]

On 4/8/2024 at 10:45 AM, CV75 said:

How do you mean, a goal for Him personally or for you personally?

I meant for Jesus.  Is marriage required for his exaltation and for that of the Holy
Spirit?

[CV75]

21 minutes ago, telnetd said:

I meant for Jesus.  Is marriage required for his exaltation and for that of the Holy
Spirit?

Yes, I believe so, by extrapolation from other teachings of the Church.