Lesson 21 - The Coming of Jesus Christ

[marineland]

I'm into lesson 21 of the Religion 275 class manual.  

Page 101 - Remind students that prior to the Savior’s birth, Samuel the Lamanite foretold the
signs that would accompany the Savior’s birth and death.

Did Samuel ever give a sign of Christ's resurrection?

3 Nephi 8:3-5 says three days of darkness would be a sign of Christ's death. A link
to 1 Nephi 19:10 is referenced. A great storm begins in the fourth day of the first 
month. The storm ends after three hours and then the three days of darkness begins
(3 Nephi 8:19).

"... according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of 
darkness, which should be a sign given of his death".

Nephi in verse 20 says the darkness was on the face of the land.  1 Nephi 19:10 
elaborates on the three days of darkness and mentions the isles of the sea.

What other lands did the three days of darkness impact?

Did the Nephites believe Jesus died on the fourth day or on the seventh day of the 
first month?

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, marineland said:

I'm into lesson 21 of the Religion 275 class manual.  

Page 101 - Remind students that prior to the Savior’s birth, Samuel the Lamanite foretold the
signs that would accompany the Savior’s birth and death.

Did Samuel ever give a sign of Christ's resurrection?

Yes:  Helaman 14:20, "But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead."

The sign was that after the three days of darkness, he would rise again from the dead (resurrection).

4 hours ago, marineland said:

3 Nephi 8:3-5 says three days of darkness would be a sign of Christ's death. A link
to 1 Nephi 19:10 is referenced. A great storm begins in the fourth day of the first 
month. The storm ends after three hours and then the three days of darkness begins
(3 Nephi 8:19).

"... according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of 
darkness, which should be a sign given of his death".

Nephi in verse 20 says the darkness was on the face of the land.  1 Nephi 19:10 
elaborates on the three days of darkness and mentions the isles of the sea.

What other lands did the three days of darkness impact?

The last part of 1 Nephi 19:10 says "...and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel."  (1 Nephi 19:10)

Zenos was an old world prophet who prophesied that those who would "inhabit the isles of the sea" (who are of the house of Israel) would be given that sign.  "Isles of the sea" is a phrase in the Hebrew scriptures that indicates far off lands, or coasts and continents, habitable spots (see verses like Genesis 10:5, Isaiah 11:11 and 24:15).  And in 2 Nephi 10:20–22, Nephi indicates "we have been led to a better land, for the Lord has made the sea our path, and we are upon an isle of the sea."

So Zenos was talking about the land where the Book of Mormon people were living, and perhaps other similar areas.

4 hours ago, marineland said:

Did the Nephites believe Jesus died on the fourth day or on the seventh day of the 
first month?

I think Samuel the Lamanite makes this clear in the verse from Helaman 14:20 I quoted above, combined with what it says in 3 Nephi 8:5.  He died on the fourth day of the month, and rose again on the seventh day (after the three days of darkness).

Edited December 4, 2023 by InCognitus

[Pyreaux]

17 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Yes:  Helaman 14:20, "But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead."

The sign was that after the three days of darkness, he would rise again from the dead (resurrection).

The last part of 1 Nephi 19:10 says "...and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel."  (1 Nephi 19:10)

Zenos was an old world prophet who prophesied that those who would "inhabit the isles of the sea" (who are of the house of Israel) would be given that sign.  "Isles of the sea" is a phrase in the Hebrew scriptures that indicates far off lands, or coasts and continents, habitable spots (see verses like Genesis 10:5, Isaiah 11:11 and 24:15).  And in 2 Nephi 10:20–22, Nephi indicates "we have been led to a better land, for the Lord has made the sea our path, and we are upon an isle of the sea."

So Zenos was talking about the land where the Book of Mormon people were living, and perhaps other similar areas.

I think Samuel the Lamanite makes this clear in the verse from Helaman 14:20 I quoted above, combined with what it says in 3 Nephi 8:5.  He died on the fourth day of the month, and rose again on the seventh day (after the three days of darkness).

Thanks, I was stuck on "isles" thing. I was pretty sure LDS think the three days of darkness was a local phenomenon. The literary indications that's all explainable by a volcanic eruption; the quaking, the fires, the strange ash-like thick darkness that light couldn't shine through. I was thinking how far reaching could a volcano block out the sun. Some far away isles too? A Bing search says, depending on if the eruption was big, the ash can travel up to 10,000 miles and lasting about 1-3 days.

[marineland]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

I was thinking how far reaching could a volcano block out the sun.

A volcano does not explain 3 Nephi 8:21 >   "And there could be no light, because of the darkness,
neither candles, neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled with their fine and exceedingly
dry wood, so that there could not be any light at all".

[CV75]

19 minutes ago, marineland said:

A volcano does not explain 3 Nephi 8:21 >   "And there could be no light, because of the darkness,
neither candles, neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled with their fine and exceedingly
dry wood, so that there could not be any light at all".

There are articles about post-eruption storms, smoke and heavy fog combinations so wet and damp that the lighting of fires by ordinary means is prevented.

[T-Shirt]

Here is a picture taken in Yakima, WA at 1:30 in the afternoon the day of Mt St Helen's eruption in 1980

[Pyreaux]

53 minutes ago, CV75 said:

There are articles about post-eruption storms, smoke and heavy fog combinations so wet and damp that the lighting of fires by ordinary means is prevented.

Yeah, reading them now. I had thought the volcanic ash, smoke, along with dust and debris rising into the air could have produced thick, what appeared to be, a “mist of darkness”, blocking lights, smothering fires, but a literal "mist" could be water-based, a thick fog, thats stopping wood fires to kindle.

One of the environmental factors I'm in favor of the Mesoamerican model over Heartland, BoM has no talk of cold or snow, some people are mostly naked, and they have seismic activity, plus a volcano erupted in Mesoamerica at that time frame.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Pyreaux

[CV75]

14 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Yeah, reading them now. I had thought the volcanic ash, smoke, along with dust and debris rising into the air could have produced the a thick what appeared to be a “mist of darkness”, but a literal "mist" could be water, a thick fog, that's stopping wood fires to kindle.

One of the factors I'm in favor of the Mesoamerican model over Heartland, BoM has no talk of cold or snow, but they have mists and seismic activity, plus a volcano erupted in Mesoamerica at that time frame.

Yep, my brother had the same experience in upstate NY some 20 years ago on a particularly foggy camping trip when there was a wildfire somewhere quite distant.

[Pyreaux]

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yep, my brother had the same experience in upstate NY some 20 years ago on a particularly foggy camping trip when there was a wildfire somewhere quite distant.

I edited out my comment about mists in Mesoamerica, I just remembered it is called the Smoky Mountains because they are "smoky" due to a fog.

[InCognitus]

7 hours ago, marineland said:

A volcano does not explain 3 Nephi 8:21 >   "And there could be no light, because of the darkness,
neither candles, neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled with their fine and exceedingly
dry wood, so that there could not be any light at all".

I already discussed this with you in September under the posting name of @telnetd.  

The volcanic eruptions definitely can account for the thick darkness, the lightning, the earthquakes, and everything described.

[marineland]

On 12/5/2023 at 8:06 PM, InCognitus said:

The volcanic eruptions definitely can account for the thick darkness, the lightning, the earthquakes, and everything described.

Where did these volcanic eruptions occur?

[marineland]

On 12/5/2023 at 12:54 PM, CV75 said:

There are articles about post-eruption storms, smoke and heavy fog combinations so wet and damp that the lighting of fires by ordinary means is prevented.

What is the location for the geographical area that you are describing?

[marineland]

On 12/5/2023 at 1:57 PM, Pyreaux said:

I edited out my comment about mists in Mesoamerica, I just remembered it is called the Smoky Mountains because they are "smoky" due to a fog.

How can you see the fog when you are in total darkness?

[Pyreaux]

37 minutes ago, marineland said:

How can you see the fog when you are in total darkness?

If the fog is the darkness, you probably saw it role in and again when it dissipates, unless they woke up to it. They might see it if visibility is simply very poor due to fog. They called it a "mist", mere darkness won't stop fire from kindling, but moisture can. Volcanic ash is made of tiny fragments of rock and glass. Unlike wood ash, it does not dissolve in water. Volcanic ash can mix with fog creating "vog". Ash can spread over large areas of sky, turning daylight into complete darkness and drastically reducing visibility, often accompanied by thunder and lightning. It can mix with rainfall, the volcanic ash can turn into a heavy, cement-like sludge that is able to collapse roofs. 

[CV75]

39 minutes ago, marineland said:

What is the location for the geographical area that you are describing?

These articles mention events from a variety of volcanic regions across the globe. Sorry, I can't provide any samples other than my brother's experience (which was wildfire/super fog related) at this time.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

How can you see the fog when you are in total darkness?

I think this passage from 3 Nephi 8 is interesting: 20 And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could ^afeel the ^bvapor of darkness; 21 And there could be no light, because of the darkness, neither candles, neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled with their fine and exceedingly dry wood, so that there could not be any light at all; 22 And there was not any light seen, neither fire, nor glimmer, neither the sun, nor the moon, nor the stars, for so great were the mists of darkness which were upon the face of the land. 23 And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen;

It refers to "thick darkness" that was tangible as "vapor" and "mists" (mists indicating some variability in the physically discerned properties including motion and temperature as well as density). The resulting lack of light was described in two ways: the result of the inability to kindle fire, and the inability to see the sun, moon, stars, etc. 

10:13 refers to "the vapor of smoke and of darkness," so "darkness" -- many ancients viewed darkness not as the absence of light, but as its own independent substance apart from light (in which case it may well have been interpreted as the direct cause of not being able to kindle fire). The word may be also used in a metaphorical sense to convey a more internal and psychic experience than describing the external environmental (the phrase "skins of darkness" may reflect this usage).

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by CV75

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

Where did these volcanic eruptions occur?

The area where the Book of Mormon events are described.

Where exactly that happened is still a matter of investigation, although (as we discussed previously) the Mesoamerican region is one possible candidate (see John E. Clark,  Revisiting "A Key for Evaluating Book of Mormon Geographies").  And (as I said before), Jerry D. Grover, Jr. has documented as many as six volcanos that were active in the first century AD in the central Mexico and Guatemala regions (see pages 32-49 of Geology of the Book of Mormon).

Volcanic eruptions more completely account for the quakings of the earth, the thundering and lightning and thick vapors of darkness that are described in the Book of Mormon (in my opinion).

[marineland]

On 12/8/2023 at 3:26 PM, InCognitus said:

Where exactly that happened is still a matter of investigation, although (as we discussed previously) the Mesoamerican region is one possible candidate

 

On 12/8/2023 at 1:34 PM, CV75 said:

These articles mention events from a variety of volcanic regions across the globe. Sorry, I can't provide any samples other than my brother's experience (which was wildfire/super fog related) at this time.

The tail end of 1 Nephi 19:10 says "... concerning the three days of darkness, which should 
be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially 
given unto those who are of the house of Israel".

What are "isles of the sea" and what is meant by "the house of Israel"?

I saw a reference to "isles of the Gentiles" in Genesis 10:5, where the church explains them as
"OR coasts, continents" in note 5b.

Why would "coasts" be inferred here?  Wouldn't darkness also impact areas that are not adjacent
to water?  

Was Egypt also impacted by a volcano for their 3 days of darkness?

[CV75]

45 minutes ago, marineland said:

 

The tail end of 1 Nephi 19:10 says "... concerning the three days of darkness, which should 
be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially 
given unto those who are of the house of Israel".

What are "isles of the sea" and what is meant by "the house of Israel"?

I saw a reference to "isles of the Gentiles" in Genesis 10:5, where the church explains them as
"OR coasts, continents" in note 5b.

Why would "coasts" be inferred here?  Wouldn't darkness also impact areas that are not adjacent
to water?  

Was Egypt also impacted by a volcano for their 3 days of darkness?

"Isles of the sea" refer to the various places where remnants of the house of Israel were led beyond their inheritance in the Southern Levant or their captivity in the much broader Levant/Middle East region accessible by land. These coasts may have been islands, coastal areas beyond the sea(s), or inland settlements beyond the coasts of disembarkation. The term was probably borrowed/appropriated by Nephi and the Nephites from Isaiah, and so would include any affected area, island, coastal or inland. The "especially" in 1 Nephi 19:10 indicates this particular sign was given ahead of time ("should" being a modal verb, future tense) by prophecy to unspecified remnants of the covenant people ("house of Israel") through their prophets, but at the very least those who recorded them in the records that eventually became the Book of Mormon. 

The house of Israel: Israel (churchofjesuschrist.org) -- the covenant people from any tribe or remnant of Israel.

RE: Egypt: I do not know; I don't read the Bible that way. But perhaps plagues 7 and 9 were preceded by a volcano that affected weather (7) and sunlight (9), but the scriptural passages testify that these were of miraculous origin.: Plagues of Egypt - Wikipedia 

 

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, marineland said:

The tail end of 1 Nephi 19:10 says "... concerning the three days of darkness, which should 
be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially 
given unto those who are of the house of Israel".

What are "isles of the sea" and what is meant by "the house of Israel"?

Nephi was explaining that the prophecy by Zenos was to be a sign given unto some which were of the house of Israel and were on an "isle of the sea".  Later Nephi explained that his people were in that situation (as he said) in 2 Nephi 10:20–22 ("and we are upon an isle of the sea.")

And the prophecy that Nephi quotes in 1 Nephi 19 continues on to explain that the signs will be different in some areas compared to others:

"For thus spake the prophet: The Lord God surely shall visit all the house of Israel at that day, some with his voice, because of their righteousness, unto their great joy and salvation, and others with the thunderings and the lightnings of his power, by tempest, by fire, and by smoke, and vapor of darkness, and by the opening of the earth, and by mountains which shall be carried up.  And all these things must surely come, saith the prophet Zenos. And the rocks of the earth must rend; and because of the groanings of the earth, many of the kings of the isles of the sea shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The God of nature suffers."  (1 Nephi 19:11–12)

He also explains that the signs would be different in Jerusalem.

3 hours ago, marineland said:

I saw a reference to "isles of the Gentiles" in Genesis 10:5, where the church explains them as
"OR coasts, continents" in note 5b.

Genesis 10:5 was one of the references I gave you, yes.  It's not just "the church" that explains them as coasts or continents.  That's the Hebrew meaning: 

And, it's a translation of the word given in many different Bible editions, such as:

Gen 10:5 - NKJV:  "From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations."

Gen 10:5 - ESV: "From these the coastland peoples spread in their lands, each with his own language, by their clans, in their nations."

Gen 10:5 - NASB20:  "From these the people of the coastlands of the nations were separated into their lands, every one according to his language, according to their families, into their nations."

3 hours ago, marineland said:

Why would "coasts" be inferred here?  Wouldn't darkness also impact areas that are not adjacent
to water? 

As the Genesis 10:5 verse infers, the coastlines were often used to separate the lands from one another.  It's simply a boundary designation.  

3 hours ago, marineland said:

Was Egypt also impacted by a volcano for their 3 days of darkness?

Egypt could have been something else, because in the plagues there are no mention of earthquakes, lightning, and other indicators of a volcanic eruption like those found in the Book of Mormon account.

Edited December 11, 2023 by InCognitus

[marineland]

On 12/11/2023 at 2:22 PM, InCognitus said:

Nephi was explaining that the prophecy by Zenos was to be a sign given unto some which were of the house of Israel and were on an "isle of the sea".  Later Nephi explained that his people were in that situation (as he said) in 2 Nephi 10:20–22 ("and we are upon an isle of the sea.")

I would disagree with your use of the phrase "unto some which were of the house of Israel".

Let me quote verse 10 again, as you had added 11-12 in your previous reply.

"... concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto 
those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of 
the house of Israel".

"Some" of the house of Israel is not implied there. Instead, it is "all".

Another thing is that the sign of the 3 days of darkness is for all peoples who live on the 
isles of the sea (all around the world), but especially it is for those of the house of Israel. 
Verses 11-12 do not negate verse 10 but instead gives a little more detail.
 

On 12/11/2023 at 2:22 PM, InCognitus said:

Egypt could have been something else, because in the plagues there are no mention of earthquakes, lightning, and other indicators of a volcanic eruption like those found in the Book of Mormon account.

Could one explain the 3 days of darkness in the Book of Mormon without one or more volcanoes
for those Nephites?
 

On 12/11/2023 at 1:59 PM, CV75 said:

"Isles of the sea" refer to the various places where remnants of the house of Israel were led beyond their inheritance in the Southern Levant or their captivity in the much broader Levant/Middle East region accessible by land.

See comment above. Thanks.

[CV75]

3 minutes ago, marineland said:

See comment above. Thanks.

I tried but have no idea what you are trying to communicate here. Please restate the point you wish me to see, and why. Thank you.

[InCognitus]

15 hours ago, marineland said:

I would disagree with your use of the phrase "unto some which were of the house of Israel".

Let me quote verse 10 again, as you had added 11-12 in your previous reply.

"... concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto 
those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of 
the house of Israel".

"Some" of the house of Israel is not implied there. Instead, it is "all".

The "some" applies to those of the house of Israel that are on the Isles of the sea (i.e. other continents).  Not all of the house of Israel were scattered to other continents.  In other words, the three days of darkness are a sign unto his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, specifically to those (who inhabit the isles of the sea) who are of the house of Israel.

15 hours ago, marineland said:

On 12/11/2023 at 12:22 PM, InCognitus said:

Egypt could have been something else, because in the plagues there are no mention of earthquakes, lightning, and other indicators of a volcanic eruption like those found in the Book of Mormon account.

Could one explain the 3 days of darkness in the Book of Mormon without one or more volcanoes
for those Nephites?

The clues that indicate that the three days of darkness were related to one or more volcanoes goes way beyond the darkness.  Volcanoes would also explain the "thunderings and the lightnings of his power, by tempest, by fire, and by smoke, and vapor of darkness, and by the opening of the earth, and by mountains which shall be carried up" (1 Nephi 19:11)

Edited December 21, 2023 by InCognitus

[CV75]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:35 AM, InCognitus said:

The "some" applies to those of the house of Israel that are on the Isles of the sea (i.e. other continents).  Not all of the house of Israel were scattered to other continents.  In other words, the three days of darkness are a sign unto his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, specifically to those (who inhabit the isles of the sea) who are of the house of Israel.

The clues that indicate that the three days of darkness were related to one or more volcanoes goes way beyond the darkness.  Volcanoes would also explain the "thunderings and the lightnings of his power, by tempest, by fire, and by smoke, and vapor of darkness, and by the opening of the earth, and by mountains which shall be carried up" (1 Nephi 19:11)

I found the phrase "mountains...carried up" interesting, and it is fulfilled as follows: 3 Nephi 8: "And the earth was carried up upon the city of Moronihah, that in the place of the city there became a great mountain." The phrase is also used in Luke 24: 51 describing the ascension of Christ. When volcanoes blow, the mountain and cinder cone's constituents (layers of earth and vegetation, volcanic bombs and blocks and finer particlized components) get "carried up" into the sky.

[marineland]

On 12/20/2023 at 7:41 PM, CV75 said:

I tried but have no idea what you are trying to communicate here. Please restate the point you wish me to see, and why. Thank you.

Oops.  See https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75666-lesson-21-the-coming-of-jesus-christ/?do=findComment&comment=1210171729