Who is the Holy Ghost?

[Dario_M]

On 9/1/2023 at 8:33 AM, Calm said:

That is a good description of LDS belief.  He is not the Father nor the Son and we don’t know anything about him, save he is another spirit child of the Father, I believe….though I am not sure if this is revealed doctrine or a reasoned out teaching.  Exactly how his being a spirit allows him to connect with us is not explained, though in John it’s called his dwelling with us and is in us.***  Perhaps because he doesn’t have a resurrected perfected body, we can tolerate his presence without having to be protected as appears to be needed when the Father or the Son shows themselves to mortals.  

 

Yeah Interesting right? Last sunday i had a converstation with a girl about the holy spirit. And i asked her: "what if a person is angry and wanna take ravange on somebody, what will be the roll of the holy spirit in that behavoir?"  And you know what she said: "Nothing. The holy spirit isn't there on those moments." 

What do you think about that? 

 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Yeah Interesting right? Last sunday i had a converstation with a girl about the holy spirit. And i asked her: "what if a person is angry and wanna take ravange on somebody, what will be the roll of the holy spirit in that behavoir?"  And you know what she said: "Nothing. The holy spirit isn't there on those moments." 

What do you think about that? 

 

I don’t think it is so much absent during those moments as we refuse to listen to it.

And I think if someone had lived their life trying to develop as close of a relationship to the Spirit as they could and had been able to be successful, I suspect that they would still have an ear listening just out of habit and maybe the Spirit could and would make its voice heard through the surge of adrenaline and the overload of thought that tends to go along with anger.  I have heard enough stories of people in overwhelming emotional circumstances suddenly shifting mental and emotional gears and getting themselves under control that I believe the Spirit is still present in those moments.  I believe the Spirit leaves eventually when we turn to nurturing selfish and sinful thoughts instead of charitable ones, but he struggles with us first and is always there if we reach out.

That doesn’t always mean we can feel or hear he is there though, unfortunately.  Brain chemistry and all the physical voices we have to listen to coming from our bodies may make it impossible to hear the Spirit.  I may have mentioned before to you how I lived several years without being able to hear the spirit (or feel joy or peace or even pleasure, a sense of stability was about the only emotional sensation I felt that I can remember) due to a couple of medications I had taken at different times that allowed me to get enough sleep in order to function as a mother (I had once panicked when I fell asleep while babysitting a handful of toddlers while their moms went to the temple, that was at the very least dangerous even if it happened again when it was just my own daughter).  One was an antidepressant (I was misdiagnosed as being depressed rather than sleep disorder) where it felt that my skull had a cloud of darkness and weight in a third of it and the other was a Parkinson’s drug where three days after taking it I suddenly started enjoying my shower with the feel of the water hitting my skin, a sensation I love along with all encounters with water as long as it is warm enough.  I realized looking back that the past several years had lacked the usual depths of emotion, but it had also lacked any highs.  It was as if all the mountains and hills as well as valleys and pits of my mental life had been pushed down or up until my interior landscape had become one monotonous infinite plain I trudged along, easy passage but not too fun or meaningful.  
 

These experiences and watching my daughter’s verbal ideas about the Spirit change when her emotions became a roller coaster dependent on blood sugar and hormone levels when she because diabetic at the same time puberty was hitting (she went from talking about feeling the Spirit to believing there was nothing there, though she is open to the possibility that her experience of the Spirit is blocked or she can’t recognize it, she just doesn’t care enough to put in the effort to find out either way) has convinced me the promise that the Spirit will always answer your sincere questions may not be fulfilled in this lifetime, but God being just won’t hold people accountable for something that is not their fault.

[Dario_M]

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t think it is so much absent during those moments as we refuse to listen to it.

So you think that the holy ghost is also with us on those moments?

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

And I think if someone had lived their life trying to develop as close of a relationship to the Spirit as they could and had been able to be successful, I suspect that they would still have an ear listening just out of habit and maybe the Spirit could and would make its voice heard through the surge of adrenaline and the overload of thought that tends to go along with anger.

That makes sense indeed. When someone is so possest with those feelings the holy ghost can not be heard. On that moment only your own angry thoughts can be heard

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

 I have heard enough stories of people in overwhelming emotional circumstances suddenly shifting mental and emotional gears and getting themselves under control

Yeah i had that also. It's possible. But it is only most effective while praying in my case. I don't know how that works with you?  

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

that I believe the Spirit is still present in those moments.  I believe the Spirit leaves eventually when we turn to nurturing selfish and sinful thoughts instead of charitable ones, but he struggles with us first and is always there if we reach out.

 

Yeah. 

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

That doesn’t always mean we can feel or hear he is there though, unfortunately.  Brain chemistry and all the physical voices we have to listen to coming from our bodies may make it impossible to hear the Spirit.  I may have mentioned before to you how I lived several years without being able to hear the spirit (or feel joy or peace or even pleasure, a sense of stability was about the only emotional sensation I felt that I can remember) due to a couple of medications I had taken at different times that allowed me to get enough sleep in order to function as a mother (I had once panicked when I fell asleep while babysitting a handful of toddlers while their moms went to the temple,

Oh my, now way. 🤪😱 And yes that's dangerous. Did you told the parents that you felt asleep. Or did you kept it a secret? 

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

that was at the very least dangerous even if it happened again when it was just my own daughter).  One was an antidepressant

Oh dear. That stuff is always a struggle, antidepressants. You need to wait a month bevore it finaly works.

I rather take benzodiazepines. Like Lorazepam. Or Xanaxs. Those work really well. I use them now for over 2 years i think. Lorazepam 2'5 mg.

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

(I was misdiagnosed as being depressed rather than sleep disorder) where it felt that my skull had a cloud of darkness and weight in a third of it and the other was a Parkinson’s drug where three days after taking it I suddenly started enjoying my shower with the feel of the water hitting my skin, a sensation I love along with all encounters with water as long as it is warm enough.  I realized looking back that the past several years had lacked the usual depths of emotion, but it had also lacked any highs.

I don't wanna be all to curious though. But life was hard for you, you could say??? It seems to me that you had a though life if i read your storie.

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

 It was as if all the mountains and hills as well as valleys and pits of my mental life had been pushed down or up until my interior landscape had become one monotonous infinite plain I trudged along, easy passage but not too fun or meaningful.  

 

 

Woow. 🥰 What a nice way of saying that. You make the English language even more beautifull. 

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

These experiences and watching my daughter’s verbal ideas about the Spirit change when her emotions became a roller coaster dependent on blood sugar and hormone levels when she because diabetic at the same time puberty was hitting (she went from talking about feeling the Spirit to believing there was nothing there,

That's normal on that age. Don't take that all to serious. 

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

though she is open to the possibility that her experience of the Spirit is blocked or she can’t recognize it, she just doesn’t care enough to put in the effort to find out either way) has convinced me the promise that the Spirit will always answer your sincere questions may not be fulfilled in this lifetime, but God being just won’t hold people accountable for something that is not their fault.

That's hard. Teenagers are mostely not really interested in anything (yeah except parties and drugs). I was also like that. It fits that age. She will change when she get's older. For now...she needs to find out who she is i do believe. And that takes a lot of years. 

Thank you for you interesting post Calm. 

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

you think that the holy ghost is also with us on those moments?

I do indeed.  I think he is always accessible, I just think we lack the tools to communicate with him at times, sometimes because we intentionally threw them away out of selfishness and others because they were taken from us (like when our interactions with other mortals cause us to lose our ability to trust, such as could happen with the abused children I have encountered when they are older) sometimes just dropped out of distraction when we are too busy with other cares, and sometimes our physical weaknesses prevent us from holding them tightly or even at all ( like happened with medication and me).

Edited September 2, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Did you told the parents that you felt asleep

One of the moms woke me up.  I had left the door unlocked and she walked in when I didn’t answer.  The kids were happily playing or asleep upstairs. Thankfully she was a very good friend and just laughed about it.  I did not volunteer to babysit again until got that problem under control.  I can’t remember if I apologized to anyone else or not, I would have been honest if anyone was hurt.  It would have been stupid not to be, I needed help myself for one thing.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

don't wanna be all to curious though. But life was hard for you, you could say??? It seems to me that you had a though life if i read your storie.

My health, my mother’s health and my daughter’s health have been my only long lasting struggles.  I have had an easy life in other ways.  Good education, good family and friends for the most part and my basic needs met and lots of luxuries, though nothing extravagant.  My dad always made a good living and so has my husband and he and my kids have been very supporting even if they and I have made some stupid choices over the years, ignoring it when we shouldn’t have and panicking and acting when we should have examined other options.  I look back and see several places it could have easily been bad because I was naive and too trusting and yet people were kind instead of manipulative.  I feel very blessed in that way.

I tend to talk about my health so much for four reasons…one, I appear to have been very transparent and open from even a kid, I can’t not be as I need to be understood and known for who I really am  (even though as an adult I realize that is wishful thinking, people will always see through their own lenses and therefore it will never actually be me that they see) and my instinct is if I keep explaining, eventually someone will get it/me and second, I didn’t get much attention from people when I was young as I was very quiet and independent from what I have been told and I was very, very, very shy.  I gained enough confidence to open my mouth when I was in college and everything gushes out now, but it appears I have yet to gain the ability to close it except when I run out of steam.  The lack of sleep wiring me up and removing limiters results in extended bursts of concentrated conversation.   I don’t do casual conversation that well.  I don’t seem to be able to just chat, everything is an exploration. 

Third, when I talk to people, people talk back rather than wandering off as used to happen when I was too shy to say much.  And I am fascinated by people and what they think and why they do what they do.  My degree ended up being psychology when I was convinced physics wouldn’t give me a very good chance at getting a good job by my dad as he wanted me to be like him, an engineer (boy, was he wrong about the job opportunities, he wasn’t keeping up with equality quotas).

And fourth, I talk a lot about my health here and elsewhere because I could have really used people sharing their experiences when I was younger so I knew it was okay (Mom’s health experiences helped, but I also knew she was disconnected to the faith community in many ways and was completely disconnected from any other social life in and I didn’t want to be) and so I could have known who to ask for advice on my options.  And to get confidence to be my own advocate with doctors so I could get the right help.  Having access to a community of fellow sufferers in the late 90s online was life changing for me.  Unfortunately it came a few years too late as it took time to  build my confidence to speak up when I knew something wouldn’t be the best and I meekly took a medication that cranked my disorder up to severe.  I want to open the door for anyone who wants to ask for advice or pointers (and lots have) as well as to help others not feel as odd and out of step as I did when younger.  I want something good to come out of my one major tragedy, which never needed to happened.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

She will change when she get's older. For now...she needs to find out who she is i do believe. And that takes a lot of years. 

We celebrated her 33rd birthday last month.    Unfortunately she couldn’t join us as she was stuck in bed with a migraine. Pretty typical for her.  She still experiences the roller coaster (though since her thyroid was removed two years ago, it’s better), but she understands the process now, so she protects us from most of it.  Her health picture is so much more complicated than mine.  And she has no memories of ever being close to normal, so it is hard for her to even know what life could be and whether something is worth sacrificing for, whether she should take the risk for the bigger payoff or the safer route.

[manol]

11 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Last sunday i had a converstation with a girl about the holy spirit. And i asked her: "what if a person is angry and wanna take ravange on somebody, what will be the roll of the holy spirit in that behavoir?"  And you know what she said: "Nothing. The holy spirit isn't there on those moments." 

What do you think about that?

I think we are like radios that can be tuned to different stations [and I love that you wrote "converstation" when you meant "conversation"!].  When we are tuned to the radio station of anger and revenge, we are not tuned in to the radio station of the Holy Spirit.   It is impossible to be tuned in to anger and revenge and tuned in to the Holy Spirit at the same time.  Those are very different radio stations. 

Forgiveness can re-tune our station from anger and revenge to the station of the Holy Spirit.  And we forgive by simply letting go of everything that prevents us from forgiving. 

In my opinion.

6 hours ago, Calm said:

I don’t think it is so much absent during those moments as we refuse to listen to it.

Agreed.  The radio station analogy is another way of saying what you said.  Actually I think @Dario_M's friend was saying essentially the same thing, again with different words. 

5 hours ago, Calm said:

I think [the Holy Spirit] is always accessible, I just think we lack the tools to communicate with him at times... [emphasis manol's]

I think your observation about us lacking the tools to communicate with the Holy Spirit at times is spot on. 

Often we are willing to progress, we are willing to change, we want to but we don't know the specifics of how.  We don't have the the tools needed to effectively take the next step(s).  We have wonderful scriptures and a good grasp on the theory, but are often at a loss when it comes to putting theory into practice.

Do you have any thoughts on some tools, some specifics, for connecting with the Holy Spirit for the person who wants to and is willing but who doesn't know how?  

[nuclearfuels]

On 8/24/2023 at 8:11 PM, Bassil said:

Jesus is our eldest brother. Is the Holy Ghost another brother, too?

@Pyreaux said it best:

 

 

[Dario_M]

22 hours ago, Calm said:

One of the moms woke me up.  I had left the door unlocked and she walked in when I didn’t answer.  The kids were happily playing or asleep upstairs. Thankfully she was a very good friend and just laughed about it.  I did not volunteer to babysit again until got that problem under control.  I can’t remember if I apologized to anyone else or not, I would have been honest if anyone was hurt.  It would have been stupid not to be, I needed help myself for one thing.

Impressive. You must have had a very nice good friend back then. Most people would be super mad if they would find out. 

On the other hand. You're only a human. And those things can happen.

[Dario_M]

On 9/2/2023 at 10:18 PM, manol said:

I think we are like radios that can be tuned to different stations [and I love that you wrote "converstation" when you meant "conversation"!].  When we are tuned to the radio station of anger and revenge, we are not tuned in to the radio station of the Holy Spirit.   It is impossible to be tuned in to anger and revenge and tuned in to the Holy Spirit at the same time.  Those are very different radio stations. 

That's what my church member also told me. 

On 9/2/2023 at 10:18 PM, manol said:

Forgiveness can re-tune our station from anger and revenge to the station of the Holy Spirit.  And we forgive by simply letting go of everything that prevents us from forgiving. 

In my opinion.

Agreed.  The radio station analogy is another way of saying what you said.  Actually I think @Dario_M's friend was saying essentially the same thing, again with different words. 

Yes she did.

On 9/2/2023 at 10:18 PM, manol said:

I think your observation about us lacking the tools to communicate with the Holy Spirit at times is spot on. 

In my case it's indeed a probleem. Sadly. I wish i could do a better job at that. 😓

On 9/2/2023 at 10:18 PM, manol said:

Often we are willing to progress, we are willing to change, we want to but we don't know the specifics of how.  We don't have the the tools needed to effectively take the next step(s).  We have wonderful scriptures and a good grasp on the theory, but are often at a loss when it comes to putting theory into practice.

Do you have any thoughts on some tools, some specifics, for connecting with the Holy Spirit for the person who wants to and is willing but who doesn't know how?  

No. I'm trying to figure it out myself. 

[manol]

7 hours ago, Dario_M said:

That's what my church member also told me. 

Yes she did.

In my case it's indeed a probleem. Sadly. I wish i could do a better job at that. 😓

No. I'm trying to figure it out myself. 

My question that you quoted was directed at @Calm, so I hope she will see your post and reply.  She has a strong LDS background, a great deal of wisdom and experience, and her "default mode" is kindness and helpfulness. 

Edited September 8, 2023 by manol

[manol]

@Dario_M, I haven't been LDS for over twenty years so my thinking has evolved along different lines, and according to LDS doctrine I do not have the Gift of the Holy Ghost anyway.  

If @Calm doesn't reply with her thoughts on "on some tools, some specifics, for connecting with the Holy Spirit for the person who wants to and is willing but who doesn't know how ", then I'll post mine, but I think she would be a much better resource for you than I would be.

Edited September 8, 2023 by manol

[Dario_M]

2 hours ago, manol said:

@Dario_M, I haven't been LDS for over twenty years so my thinking has evolved along different lines, and according to LDS doctrine I do not have the Gift of the Holy Ghost anyway.  

 

There was a time that you had it though. 20 years ago. 😇

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Dario_M

[manol]

Hi @Dario_M, my reply to you ended up being longer and more involved than I had anticipated so I decided to post it as a separate thread:

I think this way we are more likely to get others to contribute their ideas on how to connect with the Holy Spirit. 

 

[Tacenda]

On 9/2/2023 at 10:14 AM, Calm said:

We celebrated her 33rd birthday last month.    Unfortunately she couldn’t join us as she was stuck in bed with a migraine. Pretty typical for her.  She still experiences the roller coaster (though since her thyroid was removed two years ago, it’s better), but she understands the process now, so she protects us from most of it.  Her health picture is so much more complicated than mine.  And she has no memories of ever being close to normal, so it is hard for her to even know what life could be and whether something is worth sacrificing for, whether she should take the risk for the bigger payoff or the safer route.

My sister in law's thyroid was removed too and her daughter suffers from thyroid issues and allergic to so many things. She has to wear these huge sun goggles anytime she's in the sun, I feel for her sooo much. We both can't drive some freeways because of anxiety and I think it could stem from thyroid issues, the thyroid can cause a whole multiple of problems out there sadly, along with diabetes and sounds like your daughter suffers from both.  

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My sister in law's thyroid was removed too and her daughter suffers from thyroid issues and allergic to so many things. She has to wear these huge sun goggles anytime she's in the sun, I feel for her sooo much. We both can't drive some freeways because of anxiety and I think it could stem from thyroid issues, the thyroid can cause a whole multiple of problems out there sadly, along with diabetes and sounds like your daughter suffers from both.  

Yeah, my anxiety went way up during the same time I started needing some supplement, though I take a low dose.  A little goes a long way for me.

Thyroid issues are very common with diabetes.  My memory is we were told when she was 13 or 14, our first appointment with her first diabetes specialist we should expect it needing to be removed, but it was fine for 15 years so when it started going wonky we were surprised.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Calm

[Dario_M]

9 hours ago, manol said:

Hi @Dario_M, my reply to you ended up being longer and more involved than I had anticipated so I decided to post it as a separate thread:

I think this way we are more likely to get others to contribute their ideas on how to connect with the Holy Spirit. 

 

Aawh nice. That's a good idea actually. I also wanna post in that topic. 

I can't find your topic though. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Dario_M