The Famous or the Infamous Dead

[Metis_LDS]

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

 

I really don't think it'll be that easy.  Not every sin merits perdition.  But all the steps of repentance aren't always possible, like restitution.

Amen to that!  What worries me in the Pre Mortal life as spirits God could not keep about 30% of the spirits happy because I supposed of their freedom to chose.  I work on the thought that we will be free within the 3 kingdoms of glory.  With freedom people could tell others they were displeased about how they were treated on earth.

[Metis_LDS]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

no longer desire to sin, to harm others,

Is it harm to say you suffered because of their actions on earth?

[Metis_LDS]

A general observation about this thread.  I never brought up perdition.  But there have been about three posters talking about perdition.  We will not have to deal with such persons unless you are perdition yourself.

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said:

What worries me in the Pre Mortal life as spirits God could not keep about 30% of the spirits happy because I supposed of their freedom to chose.

That is a different way of describing God’s work in bringing joy to humanity.  Sounds more like placating and babysitting than teaching them how to prepare themselves to receive blessings.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

Is it harm to say you suffered because of their actions on earth?

It is if you are nurturing the sense of being a victim, nurturing resentment or a need to be right rather than at peace in God’s love, dwelling on past sins against one instead of accepting God’s gift to be healed so your own sins and the effects of others’ sins on you are remembered no more (I believe this is talking about the wounds to our souls…our souls are restored as if we were never wounded in the first place). Remember this is about heaven and not hell, spirit prison, or paradise. You are stalling your progression into the future if your head and heart are stuck in the pain of the past.

Why, if you are in heaven, a perfected being, without wounds or traumas, filled with glory and light, surrounded by nothing that is sinful/detrimental to you, why would you need to confront at that point if they had paid for it previously and you had healed from it long ago and it was no longer a burden for you?
 

 Confrontations can be an important part of healing and quite likely imo is part of prejudgment behaviour, but by the time everyone is in heaven, wanting to confront, to shame someone, or have them admit they were wrong…that sounds like someone still having to heal and if so, they wouldn’t be ready for judgment yet because their head is stuck in mortality….so wherever they were, it would not be heaven.

So my guess is you are likely right if you believe confrontations with those who commit evil will happen, as part of the process of being cleansed as they must be, they must recognize the wrong they have done and that likely will involve lots of confrontations and the wicked whose hearts are not yet touched enough will even feel harassed or oppressed by it as part of their suffering for their own sins or softening their hearts to repent….but all such psycholigical and emotional work for both victims and predators will be finished before they come before the final judgment and then begin to dwell in one of three heavens, in my guessing…assuming God’s ways of healing will be following the same sort of paths that we do now…which is a big assumption.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

With freedom people could tell others they were displeased about how they were treated on earth.

What purpose would this serve in heaven in your view?

[Metis_LDS]

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

What purpose would this serve in heaven in your view?

Well the purpose is 1. It proves you are free.  2. It is as close as can be to settling accounts in a civilised way.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Metis_LDS

[Metis_LDS]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

That is a different way of describing God’s work in bringing joy to humanity.

Isn't that what really happened?

[Calm]

9 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

It is as close as can be to settling accounts in a civilised way.

If accounts are already settled, what is civilized about bringing it up again..and again?  In mortality, most people would say it was a sign of unresolved trauma, resentment, or in more minor cases, pettiness to ‘rub’ someone’s nose in it so to speak over and over.

Quote

1. It proves you are free.  

How would that prove freedom any more than making the choice not to confront?

Edited March 18, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

Isn't that what really happened?

I don’t think we know enough about what was going on back then.

And your choice of words is ambiguous enough I am not sure what you mean.

If people turn away from God in this life, do you see it as a failure on God’s part that he couldn’t keep them happy within the limitations of agency?

God’s work is so that man may have joy, but to me that means he sets up the conditions that allow us to experience it by working with him rather than joy being given to us by him.  That would be too much puppetmastering…God turning our emotions on and off for us,

Edited March 18, 2022 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

I'm teaching Dante's Inferno. He had no problem harassing the infamous dead when he got to the lower levels of hell. He even kicked some of them in the head.

(I know it's not analogous -- I just wanted to show off that I'm teaching the Inferno)

[Metis_LDS]

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

How would that prove freedom any more than making the choice not to confront?

Speaking is active, silence is passive and you could fool yourself in thinking that proves freedom.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Metis_LDS

[Metis_LDS]

49 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t think we know enough about what was going on back then.

Are you saying we do not know that about 30% of the spirits did rebel and follow Satan. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Metis_LDS
edited for clarity of thought.

[Metis_LDS]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

What worries me in the Pre Mortal life as spirits God could not keep about 30% of the spirits happy because I supposed of their freedom to chose.

What I was pointing to with this is that we did have freedom in the Pre Mortal.  We have freedom here in this life.  I think we will have freedom in the 3 Kingdoms.  It is okay if people say that all will be nice in the Kingdoms, it irks me when they start to infer that it is because we will have to.

[JAHS]

15 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Same. I strongly suspect that redemption significantly shifts previous mortal perspectives. It will certainly heal us of, for example, vengeance and covetousness. We will be in the presence of God and know each other for who we really are.

Could this be how we get past any selfishness or jealousy for those men who have been sealed to multiple women?

[Calm]

 

5 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

It is okay if people say that all will be nice in the Kingdoms, it irks me when they start to infer that it is because we will have to.

Not my position. 

[strappinglad]

In court we often hear the victim statements of those directly and indirectly affected by the crime. The defendant must listen to these statements. How much more powerful would it be if the perp had to actually ' feel' the pain and damage committed within his own body and soul. One could brush off any verbal recounting like the OP wants but not remove the actual fear, pain and suffering from each and every one damaged by him. That , in my view , will be the punishment in ' Hell '. 

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

One could brush off any verbal recounting like the OP wants but not remove the actual fear, pain and suffering from each and every one damaged by him. That , in my view , will be the punishment in ' Hell '. 

And no escaping 

[Calm]

9 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

Speaking is active, silence is passive and you could fool yourself in thinking that proves freedom.

How would a perfect person who has perfect insight into themselves fool themselves?

You are apparently assuming here that people are choosing to be silent for eternity rather than not needing to speak anymore about something they resolved long before.  If you believe silence is passive and one must speak to choose freedom, does that mean you see the heavenly eternity as us constantly replaying, discussing what we did and what happened to us in mortality?  If so, what purpose does that serve us?  Especially given we have by that point gone through the most effective psychological therapy program ever created that is run by the most perfect psychologist to have ever existed, God and have become perfect in mind and body, our soul. 
 

In heaven all will have been washed cleaned, which implies the emotional and mental baggage 
that weighs us down gets tossed.  Is someone who has a math/physics doctorate silent about the addition/subtraction table they learned in grade one if they never mention it in their work or is it simply irrelevant to their life as a theoretical physicist?  Are they silent about the math they learned when so young because they can’t talk about it or because they see it as not needed in their lives and they would rather spend their time thinking about what is now more meaningful to them even when they recognize that once upon a time the simple facts of math were a big deal in their lives that maybe they even had struggles with.

Do you believe it is heathy for someone who has been abused and gone on to build a life without abuse in it to continue to go back and confront their abuser multiple times throughout their life?  Is that more likely to that show freedom or a captivity to the abuse in their life?

I think we have a lot more freedom in the heavens than now, including freedom from past trauma or negative history so we can choose to truly move on. 
 

As far as the wicked in mortality…they will have had by the time of their final judgment if I understand the timing correctly at minimum the thousand years (or whatever length of ‘long period of time’ that number stands for) of the Millennium to be confronted, either by God or their victims or some other method as they suffer and pay their own debt if they refuse to repent and accept the Atonement.  My guess is that confrontation will be profound, at least as deep as what Alma the Younger went through prior to his connecting with God and being saved.  Any victims or those affected by the wicked’s choices will be, imo, aware of the suffering of the predator as part of their healing process. My guess is we will be able to see the consequences of everyone’s choices as well as the context where those choices took place and the reasoning or lack thereof driving them, premortal and mortal and post mortal up to Judgment as that will be the best way to come to truly comprehend how agency truly works.

If we have done all that work of confronting others and resolving our own issues anf comprehending others before judgment, why would we bother to continue to do so in the eternities of Heaven?  If by chance we spend time reminiscing about our past lives, I don’t see it as matter if the subject happens to come up between acquaintances discussing themselves or even others, but I don’t see it as likely there is a need of anyone to seek out and confront, especially to the point where it might feel like harassment to the one time wicked, now purified Telestial soul.  I suspect we will have far more interesting ideas and events to discuss in the heavenly eternities with each other than our past mistakes, minor or life/world altering.  1000+ years will have given us more than enough time to focus on the wickedness in our lives, our own or others. 

9 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

Are you saying we do not know that about 30% of the spirits did rebel and follow Satan. 

No, though a third part does not necessarily mean 1/3 of spirits. 
 

I am saying we don’t know about our lives before in much detail, including the hows and whys of choosing to follow Satan rather than the love of God or how or why really even Satan rebelled while in the presence of God. Why wasn’t God’s love enough for him?  Pride?  If so, how and why did pride become such a driver of his behaviour?  How could pride have been rewarded enough to become that important to him in an environment that contained the fullness of God?

Edited March 19, 2022 by Calm

[Metis_LDS]

50 minutes ago, Calm said:

And you are assuming here that people are choosing to be silent rather than not needing to speak anymore about something they resolved long before. 
 

Do you believe it is heathy for someone who has been abused and gone on to build a life without abuse in it to continue to go back and confront their abuser multiple times throughout their life?  Is that more likely to that show freedom or a captivity to the abuse in their life?

No, though a third part does not necessarily mean 1/3 of spirits. 
 

I am saying we don’t know about our lives before in much detail, including the how and why’s of choosing to follow Satan rather than the love of God or how or why really even Satan rebelled while in the presence of God. Why wasn’t God’s love enough for him?  Pride?  If so, how and why did pride become such a driver of his behaviour?  How could pride have been rewarded enough to become that important to him in an environment that contained the fullness of God?

I have read everything in your post carefully.  I understand now we do not see the same way.  That is okay.  I see no advancement in trying to convince each other to see differently.

[Calm]

Works for me.