Catholic evangelism

[poptart]

Since we have Catholic scholars here thought I'd ask, do you guys evangelize anymore?  With so many either growing up or becoming nones, do you even care?  Mainlines are tanking and well, a lot of us really do feel out of place, unwanted and in some cases hated.  I'd think a growing secular people would be of concern especially with how things are nowadays. 

Your replies are appreciated, thank you.  Hope your lent is going well.

[Navidad]

13 hours ago, poptart said:

With so many either growing up or becoming nones,

What is your definition of a "none?" Someone without faith or without a formal group affiliation? Or something else? Thanks!

[poptart]

31 minutes ago, Navidad said:

What is your definition of a "none?" Someone without faith or without a formal group affiliation? Or something else? Thanks!

My definition would be those who don't really believe in much of anything.  They may have grown up in a religious household, a marginally religious household or one with no religious tradition at all.  Many things and affect people growing up, a few friends I know were kinda shunned by their religious communities when their parents divorced, and they lost their middle class status so as adults they very much identify as nones.  They have respect for the church but want nothing to do with it.  I know for me when we came down here from Alaska in addition to being poor since we didn't fit the mold here in the lower 48s we weren't exactly liked, mom being a POC made it especially hard.  You've served in missions in Mexico haven't you?  Not sure if you've worked with Native and/or Asian populations, they're not always liked by people.  A good LDS friend has an Asian spouse, they ended up going to the Asian ward because he was tired of how his wife was treated.  Add in with how the USA is quickly becoming a very, very diverse country and well, a lot of people aren't happy with the "traditional American" take on the Christian religion and are walking away.  That's the best I can come up with right now.   Here's something a bit more concrete and well thought out.  

A closer look at America’s rapidly growing religious ‘nones’ | Pew Research Center

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by poptart

[Navidad]

Thanks for your great reply. My experience with "nones" is mostly with those who have maintained a strong faith in Christ and spiritual things, but for one reason or another (most often rather personal) have rejected linking up with any formal institution. It seems in my world that most folks like this reject the formal institution, but retain a strong faith in core Christianity. Sometimes they reject the institution so that they can maintain their faith without experiencing the negativity that may then lead to folks rejecting their faith as well.

As much as "the church" is so very central and essential to LDS faith and testimony, I would think that loss of faith in the "church" might more often result in loss of faith period. I don't know that - it is just my instinct. I have attended many churches of many different formal groups, mostly because we have made many moves in my childhood and adult life. The pros and cons of each have never negatively influenced my Christian faith which is Christ-centered with any formal organization miles and miles and miles behind in any potential impact on my life. I can testify that my church is true - but I simply refer to the broad church community of Christ in the world. I have drawn insight and growth from all with which I have been involved. No one organization stands out above any other. I am a big fan of the Christian & Missionary Alliance group but have never belonged to any of their churches. I greatly admire the writings of A. W. Tozer, one of their founders. I live in Mexico and did my mission in Benin, Africa on the border with Nigeria. I saw many of the negative impacts of tribalism. That is probably why I reject belonging to any "tribe" in my own life. I think most of the various church groups/institutions/denominations, etc., inclusive of the LDS church are quite tribal in themselves. I never have seen myself as a none! Thanks again for the reply.

[poptart]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Thanks for your great reply. My experience with "nones" is mostly with those who have maintained a strong faith in Christ and spiritual things, but for one reason or another (most often rather personal) have rejected linking up with any formal institution. It seems in my world that most folks like this reject the formal institution, but retain a strong faith in core Christianity. Sometimes they reject the institution so that they can maintain their faith without experiencing the negativity that may then lead to folks rejecting their faith as well.

As much as "the church" is so very central and essential to LDS faith and testimony, I would think that loss of faith in the "church" might more often result in loss of faith period. I don't know that - it is just my instinct. I have attended many churches of many different formal groups, mostly because we have made many moves in my childhood and adult life. The pros and cons of each have never negatively influenced my Christian faith which is Christ-centered with any formal organization miles and miles and miles behind in any potential impact on my life. I can testify that my church is true - but I simply refer to the broad church community of Christ in the world. I have drawn insight and growth from all with which I have been involved. No one organization stands out above any other. I am a big fan of the Christian & Missionary Alliance group but have never belonged to any of their churches. I greatly admire the writings of A. W. Tozer, one of their founders. I live in Mexico and did my mission in Benin, Africa on the border with Nigeria. I saw many of the negative impacts of tribalism. That is probably why I reject belonging to any "tribe" in my own life. I think most of the various church groups/institutions/denominations, etc., inclusive of the LDS church are quite tribal in themselves. I never have seen myself as a none! Thanks again for the reply.

While I am not an absolute believer in institutions I put far more faith in them than I do people, more often then not they not only are more reliable they also last longer.  It's unfortunate when enough people and/or those in power contaminate the message and chase people away and in some cases let in the wolves.  

I am a baptized Lutheran first, I am not only the last in my line I had to fight for it as it was a huge part of our identity, it goes to the grave with me, period.  That being said, our establishments presence here in the USA has been well, less than desirable.  Since the beginning we've had problems, to this day it's vicious politics back and forth, is what it is.  I'm a big fan of Ardnt's take, you need both doctrine (I.E church) and holiness, for mortals one cannot exist without the other.  The bible is a Church document, without it there would be no bible, at least as we've known it up till the past few centuries.  I am impressed and happy to see there are still people like you in this country, I remember growing up hearing about the missionaries the USA used to send abroad, I'm assuming you know right now Christian orgs of all stripes are growing in leaps and bounds in Africa, Asia and other non western countries while here it's declining quite quickly.  That is one reason why I am a bit surprised Catholics aren't stepping up.  Protestants have problems, in the case of Lutherans the fallout from Seminex is quite evident, all the Wisconsin and Missouri synod do is bash the ELCA while playing plolitics then wonder why they can't keep anyone nor attract those who've left due to politics and other personal reasons.  I agree, I am no different in that regard, I left for personal reasons.  Problem with a lot of people in this country, when it comes down to it they don't care who they step on then become indignant when it comes back to bite them and theirs, we are seeing this play out now.  I'm reminded of when the elite of Christs day had him crucified and the new covenant he made with the Gentiles.  Ever since then every Christian group under the sun has been quick to not only grab that title of "Elect" but start vicious fights over it, in some cases religious wars.  Nothing has changed.  This is why I hold fast to why if those who stand to lose the most don't act, they are going to have a country of very harsh, Christian hating people, a people that outnumber them, are ignorant of them and just plain hate them and want them gone.  Most can't afford to white flight it to some nice suburb, even those who can are struggling especially if they have children/grandchildren, good chunk of the posts here are proof of that.  I hoped that people would have put their differences aside and come together, they chose not to and here we are.  Something I think a lot of folks are going to see soon, you can't pull a "We gotta come together!" When your side isn't doing so hot and people just hate you for things your side did/didn't do.  Now really is the time to be reaching out to the likes of the nones, so many are poor, hurt and very, very angry.  Since you've been in the mission field, I'm quite sure you know how that tends to progress, as you said tribalism can have many negative impacts.  It's sad seeing the state of Christiandom here, what's even sadder is a good chunk of American adherants hold to the false idea that not my suburb, not my problem.  They forget, Christ really was the biggest proponent of it takes a village with Him at the center, you have nothing without him, that includes the least of these and everyone else around you.  I've posted this here multiple times, @ 14:30 he really gets to the point I care about, consequences.  

“Weep not for Me, but for your children.” Lk. 23: 28

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by poptart

[Saint Bonaventure]

17 hours ago, poptart said:

Since we have Catholic scholars here thought I'd ask, do you guys evangelize anymore?  With so many either growing up or becoming nones, do you even care?  Mainlines are tanking and well, a lot of us really do feel out of place, unwanted and in some cases hated.  I'd think a growing secular people would be of concern especially with how things are nowadays. 

Your replies are appreciated, thank you.  Hope your lent is going well.

Thanks for encouragement during Lent. I've been trying to be vegetarian, but I just can't maintain the necessary aggression against fruits and vegetables.

We do evangelize, although we're not much for door knocking unless it's the Knights of Colombus inviting you to a fish fry. 

In the U.S. we have classes, called OCIA (Order of Christian Initiation of Adults, recently called RCIA). These classes usually begin in August or September and continue through Easter. Spouses, reverting Catholics, the occasional fanatic, general inquirers, and the curious take the classes. My parish has 7-8 people in OCIA, and that seems to be a good number. I can say more here, but part of our approach is to hold these classes. 

Some of the historic, very beautiful cathedrals bring in the curious and those interested in art.

The old mission structure is still in place, sort of, through groups like Catholic World Mission, who combine community building and faith sharing.

We do plenty of direct charitable and community service (Catholic Charities), much like the LDS do. We've even been known to work with you all!

Catholic media is a big thing in the U.S. EWTN (Eternal World Television, but it's also on SiriusXM and radio) is a main network, and there are others. There are high-quality programs for everyone, from nuns hosting a podcast to apologetics, theology, pro-life coverage, Catholic psychologists, broadcasts of Mass, national Catholic news, Vatican news, etc. More than a few people come to OCIA after experiencing Catholic media. It's high quality.

There are many Catholic podcasts, streamers, YouTubers, etc., and some are evangelization oriented. I enjoy "Pints with Aquinas." 

Men's and women's conferences, pilgrimages, visiting shrines, sampling Trappist beer, and retreats are also a thing. Some of the conferences are big, as in, renting-an-arena big.

There are efforts to encourage young people to become priests and/or to explore vocations and join religious orders. The numbers are improving in my diocese, but for some, the religious can be a little distant from the average parishioner. After Catholic school, if you're not close to an Abbey, you might not see friars, nuns, monks, and other religious in person very often. They are on Catholic Media frequently. There's an on-again, off-again push for third-order participation in holy orders, which is a way to live a spirituality consistent with a holy order (Augustinian, Dominican, Benedictine, Franciscan, Carmelite, Carthusian, etc.), without all of the vows and at a levelled commitment.

The big thing for the last 10 years or so has been the New Evangelization, which starts with 1) Helping Catholics return to the Church, 2) better catechizing Catholics, and 3) Proclaiming the Gospel with others in our lives. Something like 75-80% of Catholics say they are proud to be Catholics, but weekly Mass attendance is somewhere around 35%. There's been damage from the abuse scandals, of course, but Catholics are wide ranging in their comfort level in proclaiming the Gospel. My parish has several people who really know the Bible, dogma, the Catechism, and Church History well, but then there are those who don't know too much (and who can be intimidated by Protestant street preachers, LDS missionaries, JWs, etc.)

I could keep going, but yes, we evangelize. At least some of us do!

 

   

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Saint Bonaventure
I forgot "Franciscan." Shame on me!

[3DOP]

21 hours ago, poptart said:

Since we have Catholic scholars here thought I'd ask, do you guys evangelize anymore?  With so many either growing up or becoming nones, do you even care?  Mainlines are tanking and well, a lot of us really do feel out of place, unwanted and in some cases hated.  I'd think a growing secular people would be of concern especially with how things are nowadays. 

Your replies are appreciated, thank you.  Hope your lent is going well.

In an effort to keep this post somewhat about "things LDS", let me ask if you think it matters where one goes to church? Is there one true church, in your opinion? If there is not, then Catholic and LDS claims are false. Perhaps also some Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses are also false. That would still leave a LOT of "not false churches" to choose from, even if there are none that are one and true.

Thank you for your kind wishes. I wrote a long answer that I have decided not to post. I fear it would have been misunderstood. I will say this for myself, that I would say anything true, or do anything moral, if I thought it would make anyone hate the Catholic Church less, or love the Catholic Church more. I hope your Lent is going well also. Say a prayer for old 3DOP! May God be with you, and keep you, poptart.

God bless,

Rory

Edited to add: I am no scholar. I am a factory hand now, who was a truck driver for many years before that, an unsuccessful real estate salesman, and the leader of a "one true church" (cult?) before that. I have no formal education.

Edited March 16, 2022 by 3DOP

[Saint Bonaventure]

On 3/15/2022 at 12:46 AM, poptart said:

Since we have Catholic scholars here thought I'd ask, do you guys evangelize anymore?  With so many either growing up or becoming nones, do you even care?  Mainlines are tanking and well, a lot of us really do feel out of place, unwanted and in some cases hated.  I'd think a growing secular people would be of concern especially with how things are nowadays. 

Your replies are appreciated, thank you.  Hope your lent is going well.

I'll say another thing on this:

I think secularization is short-term and is having its last hurrah. Religious people have many more children and postmodernism undermines scientism. Religion will adapt, probably structurally, but it has a bright future.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Saint Bonaventure
Additional thought

[JAHS]

I have seen signs like this in front of churches asking Catholics to come back to church

[poptart]

4 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

I'll say another thing on this:

I think secularization is short-term and is having its last hurrah. Religious people have many more children and postmodernism undermines scientism. Religion will adapt, probably structurally, but it has a bright future.

I have the perfect retort to that too, your end may have more children, but you depend on society for teachers, medical people etc.  Most teachers I know are as far left leaning as I am, nurses are a mixed bag.  One thing we all have in common besides socio-pollical loyalties, background.  Right now the likes of us are fleeing the Midwest and south, cost of living and politics, the whole anti-lgbt thing isn't helping.  Also for the time being we outnumber and outvote you, your side is in the minority.  You have to have resources to raise kids, right now the prospect of teaching/working in some suburb with a bunch of entitled helicopter parents is quite unappealing.  We can always vote to let in more people from parts of the world where they will likely vote as we do.  The likes of us will continue to move to more liberal suburbs and once there are enough of us we change the politics and as in the past have our way. Take a good look at the rage people in Texas and other states have at us, that is one way we get our way and as the culture wars intensify we'll likely see more of this. 

You are right about religion, here's the thing the converts are coming from parts of the world a lot of people in places in the USA, especially the Midwest and South are very, very racist against.  I'd have no problems at all having a bunch of refugees from the third world here, I'd imagine some of the more privileged people in this country however would.  People love to run off at the mouth about muh religious birth rates till theirs is threatened, I hear from people in the Midwest how racist people are getting towards Christians from the middle east, they just assume they're Muslim and out to get them.  I'd say it's sad but after how their kind treated my mom and myself, I'm not surprised at all, it's just how they are as a people, for the most part entitled and rotten.

Also, you have the likes of China out there who I think will continue to rise in power and have more and more sway over the united states, they are your biggest threat right now.  Another thing, those of us who have been harmed by people here held a huge grudge over it, we will act and vote accordingly.  

Another challenge, drugs.  The cartels are everywhere, the likes of Pat Buchannan tried to warn people a long time ago, no one listened.  You see fentanyl just ravaging your nice white suburbs with the expected we gotta come together! Response from the same people who didn't care at all when the same nightmare was harming the poor suburbs, ye olde i've got mine has consequences as their side is finding out.  Add in what a scare resource education and healthcare is becoming in places and well, lol cool keep having kids while throwing it in our faces, at this rate a lot of them will be varying degress of miserable drug addict, same type of stuff I had to spend a lot of my life around due to bad family and lack of privilege.  

Here's something that I'd imagine a lot of young suburbanite families are talking about, if they're smart....

Fentanyl Overdose Involving West Point Cadets in Florida Leads to Arrest (webmd.com)

I was trying not to push that angle but the minute I hear something along these lines I respond accordingly, it's instinct.  Again, you may have the numbers but when the gatekeepers of the resources you need to raise capable children are in the hands of those on the other side?  Especially when they are a culture apart (and one a lot of those on your end would love to see hanging from trees) well, lol cool game on, I love free entertainment.  

P.S

Just so you know, that was edited, wasn't just from the hip.  Don't really know you, just saying a lot of us from a service background that I know do tend to come from poor, diverse backgrounds.  Even some older cops I know are so sick of it, with us it's always that same attitude from that segment of the US population that's always pulled it, we're sick of it.  I don't doubt for a second your side will endure, thing is the hate thats out there now will leave the world a very, very messy place.  I have no qualms with a more Christian world if it was actually Christian, what the USA has is a greedy capitalistic themed civil religion with Mammon wrapped in the cross.  One thing that civilization takes to survive is civility followed by trust, right now that's gone.  Think one of the many things that triggers me so much about the muh keeeidz line conservative Christians in the USA like to push, the world they're going to get is going to be a very messed up one.  Their side loves to run off at the mouth till consequences happen to them and theirs like we're seeing now.  

Edited March 16, 2022 by poptart

[pogi]

On 3/15/2022 at 4:04 PM, Saint Bonaventure said:

Thanks for encouragement during Lent. I've been trying to be vegetarian, but I just can't maintain the necessary aggression against fruits and vegetables.

Lol!

On 3/15/2022 at 4:04 PM, Saint Bonaventure said:

The big thing for the last 10 years or so has been the New Evangelization, which starts with 1) Helping Catholics return to the Church, 2) better catechizing Catholics, and 3) Proclaiming the Gospel with others in our lives.

I have to say, it looks like they took notes from our own playbook in the 4 fold mission of the Church.  The only part you are missing is "redeeming the dead".  While not stated, I know that "caring for those in need", is also a HUGE part of the Catholic mission. 

On 3/15/2022 at 4:04 PM, Saint Bonaventure said:

Something like 75-80% of Catholics say they are proud to be Catholics, but weekly Mass attendance is somewhere around 35%. 

I am assuming you are only taking into account attendance in your area.  I served a mission in the Philippines and noted that well over 90% of all Catholics there only attend Mass once or twice a year on Christmas and/or Easter.  Most seemed to be cultural Catholics only.  I think there is a real hunger over there for more religious expectations and commitments, which may explain the extremely high conversion rates to other faiths, including Mormonism.  The Philippines is one of the highest baptizing countries in the world for us (this is true in most predominantly Catholic countries).  Conversions from other faiths where higher expectations exist are rare, they were mostly Catholics converting. 

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by pogi

[Saint Bonaventure]

On 3/17/2022 at 12:59 PM, pogi said:

Lol!

I have to say, it looks like they took notes from our own playbook in the 4 fold mission of the Church.  The only part you are missing is "redeeming the dead".  While not stated, I know that "caring for those in need", is also a HUGE part of the Catholic mission. 

I am assuming you are only taking into account attendance in your area.  I served a mission in the Philippines and noted that well over 90% of all Catholics there only attend Mass once or twice a year on Christmas and/or Easter.  Most seemed to be cultural Catholics only.  I think there is a real hunger over there for more religious expectations and commitments, which may explain the extremely high conversion rates to other faiths, including Mormonism.  The Philippines is one of the highest baptizing countries in the world for us (this is true in most predominantly Catholic countries).  Conversions from other faiths where higher expectations exist are rare, they were mostly Catholics converting. 

 

35% of Catholics attending Mass is about right for the U.S.