SCOTUS - Oral Argument on Abortion Rights Case

[smac97]

15 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’ll take that as you conceding the point. 

You've made no point except to flagrantly misrepresent the doctrines of the Church.  But then, we all knew that already.

Latter-day Saints do not teach or believe what you say we teach or believe.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 6, 2021 by smac97

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

You've made no point except to flagrantly misrepresent the doctrines of the Church.  But then, we all knew that already.

Latter-day Saints do not teach or believe what you say we teach or believe.

The irony of your handle once again comes to mind.  There is nothing about the seeking of understanding in publicly lying about a minority religious group.

Thanks,

-Smac

So quoting God from the doctrine and covenants is “publicly lying” according to you. Got it. 

[smac97]

32 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

So quoting God from the doctrine and covenants is “publicly lying” according to you. Got it. 

Characterizing our beliefs as including "damned to eternal torment for avoiding tithing" is a rank falsehood.  We all know that.  What I'm curious about is what you tell others about us when we are not there to defend ourselves against your falsehoods.

The irony of your handle once again comes to mind.  There is nothing about the "seeking" of "understanding" in publicly lying about the beliefs of a minority and often-misunderstood religious group.  You seem to be doing your best to perpetuate and aggravate such misunderstandings by misrepresenting us and our beliefs.  That you do so under the pseudonym "SeekingUnderstanding" only compounds the problem.

What's next?  Characterizing Catholics as believing in "ritual cannibalism"?  Accusing Jews of using the blood of Christian children to make matzos?  

Slandering and profaning religious beliefs of others for polemical purposes has an ugly historical pedigree.  That you are so casually happy to go down that road is disappointing.  I hope you have a change a heart about it.

I'm quite ready to defend the doctrines of the Church.  Some of them are indeed difficult to understand and accept.  It it quite a separate thing, however, to defend them against your rank misrepresentations.  What you are saying about our beliefs is false.  That you almost certainly already know that is disappointing.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 6, 2021 by smac97

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

So quoting God from the doctrine and covenants is “publicly lying” according to you. Got it. 

Presenting it without context of how members see that being applied and other nuances may not be lying Imo, but it is not providing any depth or showing awareness of the issue.  It is a drive by, one liner imo which can be fun, but not particularly informative or engaging in discussion. 

[BRMC]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’ll take that as you conceding the point. 

You can, but I didn't.  You posting this shows that I was correct in my belief that continuing to discuss this with you would be a waste of my time.  

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Presenting it without context of how members see that being applied and other nuances may not be lying Imo, but it is not providing any depth or showing awareness of the issue.  It is a drive by, one liner imo which can be fun, but not particularly informative or engaging in discussion. 

Oh my goodness. This is a forum populated with people familiar with latter-day Saint language, and beliefs. It  consists almost entirely of current and former members with a smattering of other people who for the most part are also very familiar with Latter-day Saints. The terms “eternal torment” and “eternal punishment” are from the Book of Mormon. They describe what happens to individuals who willfully and unrepentantly sin (by say not paying tithing). There is no chance for misunderstanding the term here. I used the scriptural term here on purpose, not to score cheap points, but to contrast the minor inconvenience of jail (which I had ancestors stay in due to polygamy, and prophets through out the scriptures were also subjected to all manner of earthly punishments) with God’s punishment which He decided to describe as endless and eternal. 

 

If you haven’t already, I suggest you pick up Steve Peck’s (a BYU professor) short story titled “A Short Stay in Hell”. In the prologue we learn of Soren Johansson who is sentenced to spend a short time in hell. His personal hell is the library of babel. In the prologue he mentions in passing that there was a 700 billion year stretch where he carried a book of childrens stories around. The book is compelling and haunting. Regardless 700 billion years is the blink of an eye compared to true eternity, but compared to our brief mortal lives calling that eternal torment doesn’t even seem like a slight exaggeration. 

 

Again I am using the words that God himself choose to use to decribe His punishment. Calling me out for it seems a bit excessive in my humble opinion. 

 

 

I will also note that your “not providing any depth or showing awareness of the issue” should be directed at your God as he is the author of the language. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Stormin' Mormon]

Nevermind.

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Stormin' Mormon

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

hat's next?  Characterizing Catholics as believing in "ritual cannibalism"?  Accusing Jews of using the blood of Christian children to make matzos?  
 

oh my goodness. Do Catholic scriptures use the term ritual cannibalism!?  Do Jewish scriptures say they use the blood of Christian’s to make matzos!?!?

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Slandering and profaning religious beliefs of others for polemical purposes has an ugly historical pedigree.  That you are so casually happy to go down that road is disappointing.  I hope you have a change a heart about it.

See my response to Calm. I used language straight from the Book of Mormon. If you find it profane and slanderous, I again encourage you to take it up with your God. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

oh my goodness. Do Catholic scriptures use the term ritual cannibalism!? 

No.  Plainly not.  The only people who say such things are people who are determined to distort and misrepresent Catholic beliefs and to insult and provoke Catholics and put them in an unfair and and slanderous light.

Do Latter-day Saints believe that people will be "damned to eternal torment for avoiding tithing"?  No.  Plainly not.  The only people who say such things are people who are determined to distort and misrepresent Latter-day Saint beliefs and to insult and provoke Latter-day Saints and put them in an unfair and and slanderous light.

12 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

See my response to Calm. I used language straight from the Book of Mormon.

And people who accuse Catholics of ritualistic cannibalism use language straight from the Bible.

12 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

If you find it profane and slanderous, I again encourage you to take it up with your God. 

This coming from someone posting under the pseudonym "SeekingUnderstanding."

The irony.  It burns.

Thanks,

-Smac

[SeekingUnderstanding]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

No.  Plainly not.  The only people who say such things are people who are determined to distort and misrepresent Catholic beliefs and to insult and provoke Catholics and put them in an unfair and and slanderous light.

Do Latter-day Saints believe that people will be "damned to eternal torment for avoiding tithing"?  No.  Plainly not.  The only people who say such things are people who are determined to distort and misrepresent Latter-day Saint beliefs and to insult and provoke Latter-day Saints and put them in an unfair and and slanderous light.

And people who accuse Catholics of ritualistic cannibalism use language straight from the Bible.

This coming from someone posting under the pseudonym "SeekingUnderstanding."

The irony.  It burns.

Thanks,

-Smac

From Alma:

”But I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.”

 

From doctrine and covenants:

“Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

snip

Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken,“

Is willfully not paying tithing a sin? Are you saying the unrepentant suffer no punishment besides receiving a kingdom of glory? 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

25 minutes ago, smac97 said:

This coming from someone posting under the pseudonym "SeekingUnderstanding.

The irony of this coming from you who complains continually about personalizing threads. The irony of the charge of lying and slander (for using scriptural terminology no less) coming from you who thought nothing of accusing members of the gay mens chorus of San Francisco of being kid sexual predators.  Yeah not impressed… but also not surprised. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[smac97]

33 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Oh my goodness. This is a forum populated with people familiar with latter-day Saint language, and beliefs.

All the more disappointing, then, that you would try to so flagrantly misrepresent what we believe.

33 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It  consists almost entirely of current and former members with a smattering of other people who for the most part are also very familiar with Latter-day Saints. The terms “eternal torment” and “eternal punishment” are from the Book of Mormon.

Dodge.

Do Latter-day Saints believe that people will be "damned to eternal torment for avoiding tithing"?  No.  Plainly not.

33 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

They describe what happens to individuals who willfully and unrepentantly sin (by say not paying tithing). There is no chance for misunderstanding the term here.

There surely is.  There are plenty of people who come here who are not familiar with our beliefs, and who might think that someone posting from Kaysville, Utah under a noble-sounding pseudonym of "SeekingUnderstanding" might be fairly representing what Latter-day Saints believe.

They would be wrong in that supposition.

33 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I used the scriptural term here on purpose,

You did not.  You said "damned to eternal torment for avoiding tithing."  That is nowhere near an accurate statement of our beliefs.  

You later quoted D&C 19:10, which also does not include the phrase  "eternal torment."  

33 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

not to score cheap points,

Bull.

33 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

but to contrast the minor inconvenience of jail (which I had ancestors stay in due to polygamy, and prophets through out the scriptures were also subjected to all manner of earthly punishments) with God’s punishment which He decided to describe as endless and eternal. 

You were attempting to defend one falsehood (Kimpearson's suggestion that tithing "is a forced taking") with another (that Latter-day Saints believe that people will be "damned to eternal torment for avoiding tithing."  You then quoted D&C 19:10, which says nothing about failure to pay tithing resulting in "eternal torment."

33 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Again I am using the words that God himself choose to use to decribe His punishment.

God has never said that "His punishment" for failure to pay tithes is - as you put - "eternal torment."  Instead, the more accurate characterization would be found in D&C 76.  See here:

Quote

Terrestrial Kingdom

Those who inherit terrestrial glory will “receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun” (D&C 76:77–78). Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people “who were blinded by the craftiness of men” (76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were “not valiant in the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73–74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:71–80, 91, 97.

(Emphasis added.)

I think there will be all sorts of people who will "valiant in the testimony of Jesus" but for varied reasons will not have paid a full tithe throughout their lives, and will therefore attain some level of the Celestial Kingdom.  But for those who are not "valiant," and where that lac of valiance includes failure to tithe, their destination will likely be the Terrestrial Kingdom.  

And how amazing is the glory of this kingdom?  We don't know.  In fact, we apparently cannot even comprehend the glory of the lesser kingdom below it, as we are told that the glory of the Telestial Kingdom "surpasses all understanding."  (D&C 76:89.)

Now, a person not particularly well versed in Latter-day Saint belief may think that "SeekingUnderstanding," who has represented himself as having previously been a member of the Church, might be situated to accurately present and characterize our beliefs.  But they would be wrong in that, wouldn't they?  Because no reasonable person would find the our beliefs about the consequences of failure to pay thying to be aptly described as - in your words - "eternal torment."  That is rankly, plainly false and unfair and distorting.  And I have a hard time believing that you did not know that when you wrote it.

33 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Calling me out for it seems a bit excessive in my humble opinion. 

I am calling you out for flagrantly misrepresenting our beliefs by . . . pointing to those misrepresentations and calling them what they are.  And rather than retract and apologize for such falsehoods, you have doubled down on them, including by wresting our scriptures.

33 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I will also note that your “not providing any depth or showing awareness of the issue” should be directed at your God as he is the author of the language. 

Another falsehood.  "{D}amned to eternal torment for avoiding tithing" is your language.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

43 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

From Alma:

”But I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.”

His "sins" being . . . failure to pay tithing?'

Are you serious?

43 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

From doctrine and covenants:

“Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

snip

Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken,“

Is willfully not paying tithing a sin?

You said "{D}amned to eternal torment for avoiding tithing."

43 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Are you saying the unrepentant suffer no punishment besides receiving a kingdom of glory? 

I am saying that you are deliberately and flagrantly misrepresenting our beliefs.

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

From Alma:

”But I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.”

 

From doctrine and covenants:

“Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

snip

Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken,“

Is willfully not paying tithing a sin? Are you saying the unrepentant suffer no punishment besides receiving a kingdom of glory? 

I think this is an issue of semantics between everyone. 

Eternal is another name for God, and God's punishment is described in the scriptures as being eternal punishment.  Eternal is also a measurement of time, but that's not the interpretation the scriptures often use.  When most people use the term eternal they use it to mean everlasting or forever--a length of time that has no end, kind of thing.  When the scriptures use it, they use the word to denote the type of punishment, not the length. 

It seems like you are using the term as a type of punishment as well, as the scriptures do, but it sounds like other posters (myself included) thought you were using it as the length of punishment, and that confusion is where it all went sideways.

In this post, you have clarified how you were using the word, especially with Alma's example, where his "eternal" punishment lasted three days and then ended. 

For clarity's sake to anyone who is confused: The Church of Jesus Christ does not teach that those who choose not to pay their tithing and don't repent will suffer eternally (forever).  It teaches that most who leave their covenant relationship with Christ (which could include choosing not the pay tithing but I don't know that it must include it), and refuse to return, will suffer the consequences God has declared will take place, and then receive a kingdom of Glory.

Thus they will suffer eternal--or God's--punishment, but their punishment will have an end.

[smac97]

41 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Quote

This coming from someone posting under the pseudonym "SeekingUnderstanding."

The irony of this coming from you who complains continually about personalizing threads.

Well, I've been rebutting those falsehoods.  And you've doubled down on them.

And "personalizing threads" is generally to divert the discussion from the topic to the individual.  I'm focusing on your misrepresentations about the topic.

41 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

The irony of the charge of lying and slander (for using scriptural terminology no less) coming from you who thought nothing of accusing members of the gay mens chorus of San Francisco of being kid sexual predators.  

Actually, I did think something of it.  I thought the accusations of others had merit, when as it turns out they did not.  I repeatedly retracted the comments and acknowledged the error and apologized.  See, e.g., here ("I stand corrected"), here (same), here, here, here ("As it turns out, I was mistaken"), here, here ("I have taken responsibility for my actions.  I have retracted the comment and repeatedly acknowledged my error"), here ("Nevertheless, since you think an apology to such bystanders is appropriate, I apologize") (to this last one you responded with "Thank you").

I have been hoping that you would likewise retract your misrepresentation about us.  Oh, well.

41 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Yeah not impressed… but also not surprised. 

Says the guy who pressed me for a retraction and an apology, received it, and now...

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I used the scriptural term here on purpose, not to score cheap points, but to contrast the minor inconvenience of jail

I intellectually get that contrast, but it still feels drive by to me given the emphasis we place on the beauty of the Telestial even while pretty much skipping past any suffering for those we know and love because we assume only the most arrogant and wicked won’t see the error of their ways and quickly repent and access the Atonement once they hit the confines of Spirit Prison and figure out they were wrong after all…at least that is what I heard being taught at Church, whether because it was or because I assumed it was because it was taught in my home…very universal in my home as both my parents were very practical and we all assumed everyone else was at heart. Who would choose to suffer after seeing what repenting could achieve for one?

And I called you out because it was unexpected by me from you and I thought you wouldn’t mind me sharing my response. (No hurt feelings here or offense, I am secure we both appreciate each other’s writings overall  ).  I didn’t mean to come across as scolding.  

Scriptures can be pretty harsh. That tends to disappear for me when I put it in my big picture paradigm as well as my little picture bubble world as I have never felt the bad things that happen to me were from God, it was just life and never felt punished for mistakes, just that it was natural consequences of my foolishness.  I probably need to remember not everyone reads them the same way in the Church as I am constantly encouraging others to recognize the pain I do see in parents of disbelieving children or spouses who are concerned with broken covenants or plural marriage or people that don’t have the same trust in God that I do for whatever reason…but I have enough Saints share that they see God and life the same positive way that unless I sense pain I don’t usually go to ‘maybe they don’t see God as positive as I do’.  

Edited December 6, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, smac97 said:

God has never said that "His punishment" for failure to pay tithes is - as you put - "eternal torment." 

We joke about tithing being fire insurance. I see it as possible some members think of burning in hell as the ‘other choice’ in paying tithing. Whether that is forever or feels like forever to them, I can’t say. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

but it still feels drive by to me given the emphasis we place on the beauty of the Telestial while pretty much skipping past any suffering for those we know and love because we assume only the most arrogant and wicked won’t see the error of their ways and quickly repent and access the Atonement once they hit the confines of Spirit Prison and figure out they were wrong after all…at least that is what I heard being taught at Church, whether because it was or because I assumed it was because it was taught in my home…very universal in my home

I think this is very hit and miss and certainly did not represent my experience growing up in the church where I believed I was going to hell. See here:

https://askgramps.org/tithing-really-considered-fire-insurance/

I’d say see also the miracle of forgiveness. 

The take that you describe sounds nice but also sounds very much like “take a few stripes and you will be healed” described as a falsehood in second nephi. 
 

That is nice that your experience was different, but I stand by the scriptural soundness of my statement. I was taught that God is not mocked. I was taught the atonement was “infinite.” I was taught that if we don’t repent that we would suffer as Christ suffered for our sins. And my only point was that if I had to choose between spending a few years in jail for tax evasion or endure something called “eternal torment” by those in a position to know, I’d choose jail every time. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

We joke about tithing being fire insurance. I see it as possible some members think of burning in hell as the ‘other choice’ in paying tithing. 

https://askgramps.org/tithing-really-considered-fire-insurance/

[SeekingUnderstanding]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

will have an end

I will also add that “have an end” can be very relative. The longest time that you can imagine is less than the smallest fraction of a blink of an eye compared to eternity. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think this is an issue of semantics between everyone. 

With respect, I think it's a lot more than that.  Catholics would not say that accusations of "ritualistic cannibalism" are merely "semantics."  There's a considerably more important issue at hand.  I think opponents of the Church are simply too accustomed to getting away with their casual slanders and falsehoods about us.  I've lost count of how many times I've come across patently unfair and/or inaccurate representations and characterizations like what "SeekingUnderstanding" has said here.  There isn't a conversant Latter-day Saint alive who believes that people will be "damned to eternal torment for avoiding tithing."  That is not what we believe.  That is nowhere near to what we believe, and yet people like "SeekingUnderstanding" sure seem comfortable with spewing such casual slanders.  Well, in a sense, they should feel this way.  Free Speech is a wonderful thing.  He has the right to insult us and profane and mischaracterize our beliefs, and I am grateful for that.  Similarly, Free Speech gives me the right to rebut his falsehoods.

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Eternal is another name for God, and God's punishment is described in the scriptures as being eternal punishment.  Eternal is also a measurement of time, but that's not the interpretation the scriptures often use.  When most people use the term eternal they use it to mean everlasting or forever--a length of time that has no end, kind of thing.  When the scriptures use it, they use the word to denote the type of punishment, not the length. 

It seems like you are using the term as a type of punishment as well, as the scriptures do, but it sounds like other posters (myself included) thought you were using it as the length of punishment, and that confusion is where it all went sideways.

In this post, you have clarified how you were using the word, especially with Alma's example, where his "eternal" punishment lasted three days and then ended. 

For clarity's sake to anyone who is confused: The Church of Jesus Christ does not teach that those who choose not to pay their tithing and don't repent will suffer eternally (forever).  It teaches that most who leave their covenant relationship with Christ (which could include choosing not the pay tithing but I don't know that it must include it), and refuse to return, will suffer the consequences God has declared will take place, and then receive a kingdom of Glory.

Thus they will suffer eternal--or God's--punishment, but their punishment will have an end.

And this is, according to "SeekingUnderstanding," equivalent to - as he put it - being "damned to eternal torment for avoiding tithing."

I see this a plain attempt to mischaracterize and mislead.  Providing clarity for those who may be confused was an appropriate response to the comment under discussion, which sure comes across as intending to "confuse."

For me, I had hoped that "SeekingUnderstanding" would retract his mischaracterization.  I still hope he will do so.

I relish the environment in which we live whereby "SeekingUnderstanding" can say such horrible falsehoods about us, as that environment also gives us the opportunity to defend ourselves against such calumnies.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

The take that you describe sounds nice but also sounds very much like “take a few stripes and you will be healed” described as a falsehood in second nephi. 

But it isn’t that. I truly believe that once people understand in their heart and mind that infinite capacity of God’s love and his massive desire for us to have joy, there will be a full and honest down to the bone repentance and at first there will be such searing, blazing remorse for the unnecessary pain we finally realize we caused with our stupidity and selfishness, but God and our family don’t need us to feel pain for wounds that have been healed, so next will be the joy where we all celebrate our own and everyone else’s freedom from past hurts and might have beens and even pain caused by maliciousness. Iow, I think we are all going to get an Alma the Younger conversion experience.  But his was sincere and real, not just a few strips even if in length it was for only a few days of torment.  It is the depth that matters.

The most painful times of my life were hours or days in length, but as life changing as any of the decade long suffering.

I just have such a difficult time thinking of anyone who would choose anything less unless they were damaged in some way, but damage will be healed by God, se even they will have access to God’s joy.   I know the scriptures have space for those who refuse, I just can’t think of why anyone would really.  There and then, not here and now. I find it very easy to imagine why people won’t accept God’s joy in the here and now. I have seen too many examples that I think we all reject him in some way, we aren’t ready to let him in yet, but surely we will be. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

37 minutes ago, smac97 said:

God has never said that "His punishment" for failure to pay tithes is - as you put - "eternal torment."  Instead, the more accurate characterization would be found in D&C 76.  See here:

I’m pretty done with the thread, but I did get a chuckle from being told that my scriptural citation failed to explicitly mention tithing. And then you proceed to provide a long quote that…wait for it… doesn’t mention tithing. Beyond that you change the topic from the punishment for sin to one’s final reward. Your focus here reminds me a bit of second Nephi:

”And there shall also be many which shall say: ^aEat, drink, and be ^bmerry; nevertheless, fear God—he will ^cjustify in committing a little ^dsin; yea, ^elie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a ^fpitfor thy neighbor; there is ^gno harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.”

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, smac97 said:

That is not what we believe.  That is nowhere near to what we believe,

While not very often, I have spent time trying to convince some of my fellow members that is not what we believe. For some reason even when they wanted to, at that point they couldn’t accept it.  So I don’t believe it is our doctrine, but I unfortunately know a few members who interpret it that way. I hope by now they see it differently.

Stephen Robinson wrote a book, Believing Christ, because he saw many members, even his wife iirc, not really getting the Atonement would work for them as well.  It was a bestseller for years for a reason. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

at first there will be such searing, blazing remorse for the unnecessary pain we finally realize

As I am trying to extradite myself from the thread, I will merely add that one such individual in the Book of Mormon experienced just this. It changed him. He repented. His name was Alma. And he described his experience as “endless torment”. 
 

This and D&C 19 were exactly what I had in mind when I made my post. This is a Latter-day Saint board. I had no idea I was making a controversial post. I thought the relevant reference was obvious. 
 

What does “endless torment” entail? Heck if I know. I don’t believe in it. But when I did I certainly thought it would be way worse than a few years in jail (which sounds like being beaten by a few stripes). 
 

And again for everyone here, I recommend Peck’s a short stay in hell. It’s a great read. It’s written by a Latter-day Saint. Loved it as a member and still love it as a former member. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding