Random Polygamy Question

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, webbles said:

In addition to what Calm said, here's a larger quote from the letter that contains that first part (copied and pasted from the transcript on the site Calm linked to):

To me, that letter makes it sound like it was revealed to Joseph in 1831 (or maybe another year since the 1 in the letter has odd marks through it) that she would be his wife.  He was scared about that idea and it wasn't until 1842 when he actually approached her for the first time.  I believe the mention of Sister Whitney's house is her Nauvoo house.  The Whitney's were polygamy insiders around then (their daughter would be sealed to Joseph Smith later that year), so it would make sense for Joseph to "first [tell] [her] about his great version concerning [her]" at their house where it was a safe place to discuss it.

Here's another quote from her that also places her far away when Joseph learned in 1831 that she should be his wife (http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/MLightner.html😞

In some searching I found this old MDDB topic about the same thing, no wonder I thought she was as young as 12, I discussed this in 2013.

And in this wiki article she is 12 when he said she would be his wife later in life. The footnote is from Mormon Enigma. Which BTW, was at one time found at Deseret Book along with In Sacred Loneliness, by Compton. So I wonder what the answer is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Elizabeth_Rollins_Lightner

"Mary claimed that Smith had a private conversation with her in 1831, when she was only 12. He told her that she "was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife."^[3]: 65 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Tacenda

[Calm]

I would like to see how Enigma writes up the age. It is unlikely that the first discussion occurred when she was 12.

Quote

am the first being that the revelation [D&C 132] was given to him for and I was one thousand miles away in Missouri, for we went up to Jackson County in 1841 [should be 1831].^[9]

As she says in the quote above, Joseph got the revelation regarding her, but by then she was a thousand miles away in Missouri. Her family had left Kirtland for Missouri in the fall of 1831; only after her departure did Joseph report the revelation.

Furthermore, in a private letter to Emmeline B. Wells, Mary said that she was not taught anything about plural marriage by Joseph until 1842:

As for Sister Whitney, Bishop Whitney's wife, I shall never forget her. It was at their house that the Prophet Joseph first told me about his great vision concerning me. He said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife. That was in 1831. He was very much frightened, the angel appeared to him three times. It was in the early part of Feb. 1842 that he was compelled to reveal it to me personally, by the Angel threatening him. I said I would not accept it until I had seen an immortal being myself. I could tell you about this, but cannot write any more in regard to this subject.^[10]

 

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Plural_wives/Mary_Elizabeth_Rollins_Lightner

For those who don’t want to read the quoted discussion, here is Mary’s dating of the conversation:

“It was in the early part of Feb. 1842 that he was compelled to reveal it to me personally”

[Tacenda]

55 minutes ago, Calm said:

I would like to see how Enigma writes up the age. It is unlikely that the first discussion occurred when she was 12.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Plural_wives/Mary_Elizabeth_Rollins_Lightner

For those who don’t want to read the quoted discussion, here is Mary’s dating of the conversation:

“It was in the early part of Feb. 1842 that he was compelled to reveal it to me personally”

I wonder why we have such conflicting statements. Where is Fair getting their quotes I wonder. 

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

In some searching I found this old MDDB topic about the same thing, no wonder I thought she was as young as 12, I discussed this in 2013.

And in this wiki article she is 12 when he said she would be his wife later in life. The footnote is from Mormon Enigma. Which BTW, was at one time found at Deseret Book along with In Sacred Loneliness, by Compton. So I wonder what the answer is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Elizabeth_Rollins_Lightner

"Mary claimed that Smith had a private conversation with her in 1831, when she was only 12. He told her that she "was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife."^[3]: 65 

I found a copy of Mormon Enigma.  The story is described on pages 100-101.  At the end of the entire story, it has a footnote which says that the entire account can be found in 3 documents.

* Letter from Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner to Emmiline B. Wells (http://archives.lib.byu.edu/repositories/14/archival_objects/168183)

* Talk that Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner gave at BYU on 14 April 1905 (http://user.xmission.com/~plporter/lds/merlbyu.htm)

* "The Life and Testimony of Mary E. Lightner" (http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/MLightner.html)

After reading all of those, I think that Mormon Enigma and others have misunderstood her quote from the letter (the one I quoted earlier).  They assumed that when she said 1831 that she was talking about the meeting at Sister Whitney's house where Joseph Smith told her about polygamy.  But I think when you read all of the sources, you'll see that she didn't hear from Joseph Smith until 1842 which would have been at Sister Whitney's house.  Instead, the 1831 and 1834 incidents were private to Joseph Smith where he learned that she would be his wife, but he didn't act on it until 1842.

[webbles]

12 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder why we have such conflicting statements. Where is Fair getting their quotes I wonder. 

That quote is from the same letter that Mormon Enigma uses for the 1831 date.  I quoted it up above but here it is again:

Quote

as for Sister Whitney Bishop Whitneys wife I shall never forget her, as it was at her House that the Prophet Joseph first told me about his great vision concerning me. he said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife, <in 183[-]> he was very much frightened about until the Angel appeard to him three times. it was in the early part of Feb, 1842 before <that> he was compelled to reveal it to me personally, by the Angel threatening him

 

[Tacenda]

36 minutes ago, webbles said:

I found a copy of Mormon Enigma.  The story is described on pages 100-101.  At the end of the entire story, it has a footnote which says that the entire account can be found in 3 documents.

* Letter from Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner to Emmiline B. Wells (http://archives.lib.byu.edu/repositories/14/archival_objects/168183)

* Talk that Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner gave at BYU on 14 April 1905 (http://user.xmission.com/~plporter/lds/merlbyu.htm)

* "The Life and Testimony of Mary E. Lightner" (http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/MLightner.html)

After reading all of those, I think that Mormon Enigma and others have misunderstood her quote from the letter (the one I quoted earlier).  They assumed that when she said 1831 that she was talking about the meeting at Sister Whitney's house where Joseph Smith told her about polygamy.  But I think when you read all of the sources, you'll see that she didn't hear from Joseph Smith until 1842 which would have been at Sister Whitney's house.  Instead, the 1831 and 1834 incidents were private to Joseph Smith where he learned that she would be his wife, but he didn't act on it until 1842.

I'm considering reaching out to Todd Compton and Linda Newell tomorrow. They're both on Facebook. Maybe they'll think I'm a nutcase. But this thing is driving me nuts. 

[helix]

On 10/27/2021 at 10:11 PM, webbles said:

Instead, the 1831 and

There is no evidence to support that.  The "sealed" mentioned in 1831 had nothing to do with marriage and applied to men and women in the room.

[webbles]

7 hours ago, helix said:

There is no evidence to support that.  The "sealed" mentioned in 1831 had nothing to do with marriage and applied to men and women in the room.

Can you explain this a little more?  I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about.  Where does it say there was a sealing in 1831 and that it applied to the men and women in the room?

[Tacenda]

https://bycommonconsent.com/2021/10/28/she-shall-believe-or-she-shall-be-destroyed-dc-121-and-132/

What does this article speak to those that read it here on the board. Do you disagree, agree, or ? 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-doctrine-and-covenants-2021/46?lang=eng

In November this section is going to be discussed in Come Follow Me. I don't think I've sat through one discussion of it in Gospel Doctrine. Or I would have probably not had my faith crisis over finding out Joseph lived it like this. Don't know why in all my 40 years back then that I hadn't read this scripture or heard it in class, of course I disliked reading scriptures somewhat, and read instead from the Ensign mostly. I did have several callings in other auxiliaries, so there's that. Or did this section not get discussed much until now I wonder. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Tacenda

[Olmec Donald]

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://bycommonconsent.com/2021/10/28/she-shall-believe-or-she-shall-be-destroyed-dc-121-and-132/

What does this article speak to those that read it here on the board. Do you disagree, agree, or ?

Imo if a husband actually uses the now-I-gotcha-in-a-no-win-situation clauses in Section 132 to manipulate the woman he allegedly loves, then he is not only exercising unrighteous dominion but also destroying her trust.  Imo if it was a test, he would have failed. 

Personally I think we have a right and maybe even a responsibility to run things by our own soul when it comes to "thus saith the Lord" declarations regardless of the authority invoked.  I think it's valid to run the Alma Chapter 32 experiment:  Plant the idea in your heart and give it the fairest chance you can and see if it grows or not. 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[katherine the great]

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

 

https://bycommonconsent.com/2021/10/28/she-shall-believe-or-she-shall-be-destroyed-dc-121-and-132/

What does this article speak to those that read it here on the board. Do you disagree, agree, or ? 

 

That basically sums up my thoughts on D&C 132. 

[helix]

15 hours ago, webbles said:

an you explain this a little more?  I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about.

You previously said: " Instead, the 1831 and 1834 incidents were private to Joseph Smith where he learned that she would be his wife"

There is no evidence in 1831 that this occurred. 

[webbles]

9 hours ago, helix said:

You previously said: " Instead, the 1831 and 1834 incidents were private to Joseph Smith where he learned that she would be his wife"

There is no evidence in 1831 that this occurred. 

I think we are in agreement.  There was no sealing in 1831, just a blessing given to Mary.  Sometime that year, though, Joseph Smith apparently learned that she would be one of his wives.  This would have been after she had moved to Missouri, though.  That's based off of two statements from her:

From her autobiography (http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/MLightner.html)

Quote

I am the first being that the revelation [D&C 132] was given to him for and I was one thousand miles away in Missouri, for we went up to Jackson County in 1841 [1831]

From her letter to Emmeline Wells (http://archives.lib.byu.edu/repositories/14/archival_objects/168183)

Quote

as for Sister Whitney Bishop Whitneys wife I shall never forget her, as it was at her House that the Prophet Joseph first told me about his great vision concerning me. he said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife, <in 183[-]> he was very much frightened about until the Angel appeard to him three times. it was in the early part of Feb, 1842 before <that> he was compelled to reveal it to me personally, by the Angel threatening him, I would not exept it until I had seen an immortal being myself.

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by webbles

[helix]

41 minutes ago, webbles said:

Sometime that year, though, Joseph Smith apparently learned that she would be one of his wives.

We have to go off Mary's dates here, and they are all over the place.

A 1902 statement puts it at 1834 (http://www.josephsmithspolygamy.com/NaturalistsProblems/CharismaticExperiences.html)

Quote

I was sealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet by commandment, in the spring of 1831. The Savior appeared and commanded him to seal me up to everlasting life, gave me to Joseph to be with him in his kingdom even as he is in the Father’s Kingdom. In 1834, [Joseph] was commanded to take me for a wife.

A 1905 statement puts in 1831 (http://thefrees.com/history/node/42)

Quote

He said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife. That was in 1831

The autobiography says 1841

Quote

I am the first being that the revelation [D&C 132] was given to him for and I was one thousand miles away in Missouri, for we went up to Jackson County in 1841

The 1902 statement is the one that makes the distinction between two different events (the 1831 blessing, and the 1834 commandment).  The 1905 statement contradicts the 1902 statement.  The autobiography statement is just generalized, it just says it happened after they moved, but doesn't pin it down to the year, and the year itself appears to be either a typo of a misstatement. 

Since the 1902 statement is earlier and detailed, I consider that one the most reliable. 

[webbles]

24 minutes ago, helix said:

We have to go off Mary's dates here, and they are all over the place.

A 1902 statement puts it at 1834 (http://www.josephsmithspolygamy.com/NaturalistsProblems/CharismaticExperiences.html)

A 1905 statement puts in 1831 (http://thefrees.com/history/node/42)

The autobiography says 1841

The 1902 statement is the one that makes the distinction between two different events (the 1831 blessing, and the 1834 commandment).  The 1905 statement contradicts the 1902 statement.  The autobiography statement is just generalized, it just says it happened after they moved, but doesn't pin it down to the year, and the year itself appears to be either a typo of a misstatement. 

Since the 1902 statement is earlier and detailed, I consider that one the most reliable. 

The statements aren't contradicting each other.  They are talking about different events.

There was the "general sealing" that happened in Joseph's home in Kirtland in 1831 (from a 1905 address to BYU http://user.xmission.com/~plporter/lds/merlbyu.htm)

Quote

The Smith family was driven from New York, and a small church had been organized. Oliver Cowdery, Peter Whitmer, and Ziba Peterson were members. Well, I being anxious, though young, to learn about the plates from those who knew all about it, my mother and I went up to the Smith family the next night after they came to Kirtland. As I went in, there were two or three others present. They were all there, from the old gentleman and his wife to all the sons and daughters. As we stood there talking to them, Joseph and Martin Harris came in. Joseph looked around very solemnly. It was the first time some of them had ever seen him.

Said he, "There are enough here to hold a little meeting." They got a board and put it across two chairs to make seats. Martin Harris sat on a little box at Joseph's feet. They sang and prayed. Joseph got up and began to speak to us. As he began to speak very solemnly and very earnestly, all at once his countenance changed and he stood mute. Those who looked at him that day said there was a search light within him, over every part of his body. I never saw anything like it on the earth. I could not take my eyes off him; he got so white that anyone who saw him would have thought he was transparent. I remember I thought I could almost see the cheek bones through the flesh. I have been through many changes since but that is photographed on my brain. I shall remember it and see in my mind's eye as long as I remain upon the earth.

He stood some moments. He looked over the congregation as if to pierce every heart. He said, "Do you know who has been in your midst?" One of the Smiths said an angel of the Lord. Martin Harris said, "It was our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ." Joseph put his hand down on Martin and said: "God revealed that to you. Brethren and sisters, the Spirit of God has been here. The Savior has been in your midst this night and I want you to remember it. There is a veil over your eyes for you could not endure to look upon Him. You must be fed with milk, not with strong meat. I want you to remember this as if it were the last thing that escaped my lips. He has given all of you to me and has sealed you up to everlasting life that where he is, you may be also. And if you are tempted of Satan say, 'Get behind me, Satan.'"

These words are figured upon my brain and I never took my eye off his countenance. Then he knelt down and prayed. I have never heard anything like it before or since. I felt that he was talking to the Lord and that power rested down upon the congregation. Every soul felt it. The spirit rested upon us in every fiber of our bodies, and we received a sermon from the lips of the representative of God.

And there was the revelation to Joseph Smith that Mary would be his wife (from the above quotes).

Quote

I am the first being that the revelation [D&C 132] was given to him for and I was one thousand miles away in Missouri, for we went up to Jackson County in 1841 [1831]

Quote

as for Sister Whitney Bishop Whitneys wife I shall never forget her, as it was at her House that the Prophet Joseph first told me about his great vision concerning me. he said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife, <in 183[-]> he was very much frightened about until the Angel appeard to him three times. it was in the early part of Feb, 1842 before <that> he was compelled to reveal it to me personally, by the Angel threatening him, I would not exept it until I had seen an immortal being myself.

Also, in 1831, there was the blessing given to Mary (from her autobiography)

Quote

Before or about the time I finished the last chapter, the Prophet Joseph Smith arrived in Kirtland, and moved into a part of Newel K. Whitney's house (Uncle Algernon's partner in the Mercantile Business), while waiting for his goods to be put in order. Brother Whitney brought the Prophet Joseph to our house and introduced him to the older ones of the family (I was not in at the time.) In looking around he saw the Book of Mormon on the shelf, and asked how that book came to be there. He said, "I sent that book to Brother Morley." Uncle told him how his niece had obtained it. He asked, "Where is your niece?" I was sent for; when he saw me he looked at me so earnestly, I felt almost afraid. After a moment or two he came and put his hands on my head and gave me a great blessing, the first I ever received, and made me a present of the book, and said he would give Brother Morley another. He came in time to rebuke the evil spirits, and set the church in order. We all felt that he was a man of God, for he spoke with power, and as one having authority in very deed.

All three of those events happened in 1831 and they are different events.  The first event happened in Joseph's house (which would probably be Brother Whitney's house as that was their first place of residence).  The second event happened later in the year after Mary had moved to Missouri and wasn't known to anyone until Joseph told Mary about it in 1842 in Sister Whitney's home in Nauvoo.  The third event happened in Mary's house and would be a short time after the first event.

The 1834 event where Joseph was commanded to marry Mary by an angel also happened.

 

 

 

By the way, your quote for the 1905 statement is actually in accurate.  The website apparently mistranscribed it.  You can see the actual letter she wrote at http://archives.lib.byu.edu/repositories/14/archival_objects/168183.  Specifically, the part that says "That was in 1831" is not what she wrote.  She actually just wrote "in 183<1>" as a superscript after the word "wife".

Also, the 1902 statement is supposedly in the BYU archives as well.  They have a page for it at http://archives.lib.byu.edu/repositories/14/archival_objects/168613 and I should be able to view the actual document but it isn't showing up for me.  Can anyone else see the original on that page?

[helix]

My disagreement is this: "Sometime that year [1831], though, Joseph Smith apparently learned that she would be one of his wives"

There is no historical record for this. 

Quote

Specifically, the part that says "That was in 1831" is not what she wrote

That's a great catch!