Cohesive Narrative of the fabricated Book of Mormon?

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, pogi said:

Here in Draper Utah, we are still old-school - Draper 1st, 2nd, 3rd ward, etc.  

same here in Mapleton 

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, bOObOO said:

He serves in only one ward at a time and his jurisdiction is always limited to only one ward.

Methinks his jurisdiction is a synonym for his authority.  It demonstrates my perspective that authority is always limited to the group and location within the group. That is in no way a limitation other than what the LDS places on its own leader's authority. Just like every other church does. An LDS leader who has authority, has it only within the LDS church and within a very specific location within the church. He has no authority outside of his ward, let alone in other places in the broader Christian community. That is a common denominator with every other Christian group.

[bOObOO]

14 hours ago, Navidad said:

Methinks his jurisdiction is a synonym for his authority.  It demonstrates my perspective that authority is always limited to the group and location within the group. That is in no way a limitation other than what the LDS places on its own leader's authority. Just like every other church does. An LDS leader who has authority, has it only within the LDS church and within a very specific location within the church. He has no authority outside of his ward, let alone in other places in the broader Christian community. That is a common denominator with every other Christian group.

Yes, a bishop has jurisdiction/authority only within his own ward (a geographic area), but outside of that ward there are other wards and branches (other geographic areas), and we (our Church) has established either a ward or a branch on most of this planet.  You can think of a branch as a mini-ward, an area where there are not many members of our church  And in all of those wards and branches (geographic areas) there are also buildings of other churches, with members of other churches.  Which means we have authority/jurisdiction even in areas where other churches are established with their own members and leaders.  In our wards and branches there are churches such as Baptist churches and Mennonite churches and Catholic churches, etc.  Even Jewish and Islamic churches.  In the very same geographic areas where we have authority/jurisdiction.  Including areas where you believe we have no authority/jurisdiction.  We have the priesthood of God and God has commanded us to declare the gospel to everybody, gathering as many as we can into our own church the Lord's church.  You don't seem to understand what you are dealing with here.  The world is not as you think it is.  And you have much to learn about God's authority and power.

[Navidad]

5 hours ago, bOObOO said:

You don't seem to understand what you are dealing with here.  The world is not as you think it is.  And you have much to learn about God's authority and power.

I am wondering if you are familiar with the old 70s theory of communication and interactions known as "Transactional Analysis?" It feels to me like you are communicating parent to child to me instead of adult to adult. I don't understand what I am dealing with; I am misinformed about how the world is; I have much to learn about God. Do I have that right? And I suppose you just happen to have the answers to my inadequacies? Parent to child is not the best form of communication or dialogue, is it? The parent tells the child the way it is and the child walks away feeling lessened. The child then holds up one hand to push the adult away, while holding out the other to allow the adult to come closer. It is called the "go away closer disease." It is readily visible in abused children. Is there anything else you would like to tell me about me?

Before you do, I will only share with you that I am a happy and fairly healthy Christian, Evangelical, and Mennonite. I am content and confident in my beliefs, faith, and understanding of God. I am an expert in understanding His patience, lovingkindness, mercy, and longsuffering. I feel His presence in my life via the comforter (the Holy Spirit)  He provided us when Christ was glorified and ascended back into heaven. Since Christ left the earth in his glorified body, you and I as Christians are the physical visible presence of God on earth. In the OT it was the pillar and the cloud of smoke, then the shekinah glory on the ark, then after God withdrew his presence as recounted in the Book of Ezekiel, there was an apostasy for many years. Then one day a baby was born in Bethlehem and once again the physical visible presence of God was on earth for 33 short years. From that ascension on, the Holy Spirit has been provided to indwell the Christian. The indwelt Christian has since then been the physical visible presence of God on the earth. That would include you and me.

It is our responsibility then to live our lives with that mission and responsibility in mind. We have an honor and duty to well represent the Savior and the Father to a lost and dying world, as well as to our fellow Christians. We must honor each other as the living temple of God, even when we disagree. I know I have said nothing about authority and power. Those are not the first and foremost characteristics of God that I sense in my "heart." It is His love, patience, and kindness that speak to me. Of course I don't deny His authority or his power, but I am not a vessel of either of those to you. You are not a vessel of either of those to me. We are brothers in Christ, journeying down life's path as best as we can.

You believe you will stand before the great white throne as a baptized, sealed, and endowed member of the LDS church. I believe I will stand before the great white throne as one individual covered in the atoning blood of Christ - alone and "just as I am." Whatever church I belonged to in this mortal life will be irrelevant - is my belief. I know of nothing that tells me Christ will open a book to check on my church affiliation as part of my judgment.

Last Sunday, with two LDS church members I sang a trio, a special music number in the sacrament service - The lyrics of the first verse -"Come thou fount of every blessing, tune my heart to sing thy praise - streams of mercy never ceasing call for songs of loudest praise. Teach me some melodious sonnet sung by flaming tongues above, praise the mount-I'm fixed upon it, mount of thy redeeming love."  And it goes on with more tender lyrics speaking of a wonderful personal relationship with Christ. We are actually singing those words to Him. He is the fount of every blessing, is He not?

I am simply sharing my understanding of the Savior - not presuming to teach you anything. I shared it from the stand last Sunday as I have done in several sacrament talks and in substitute teaching the gospel doctrine class.  I am going to believe that you were having a bad day when you wrote what you did to me. I know I certainly have those. Best wishes.

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am wondering if you are familiar with the old 70s theory of communication and interactions known as "Transactional Analysis?" It feels to me like you are communicating parent to child to me instead of adult to adult. I don't understand what I am dealing with; I am misinformed about how the world is; I have much to learn about God. Do I have that right? And I suppose you just happen to have the answers to my inadequacies? Parent to child is not the best form of communication or dialogue, is it? The parent tells the child the way it is and the child walks away feeling lessened. The child then holds up one hand to push the adult away, while holding out the other to allow the adult to come closer. It is called the "go away closer disease." It is readily visible in abused children. Is there anything else you would like to tell me about me?

Before you do, I will only share with you that I am a happy and fairly healthy Christian, Evangelical, and Mennonite. I am content and confident in my beliefs, faith, and understanding of God. I am an expert in understanding His patience, lovingkindness, mercy, and longsuffering. I feel His presence in my life via the comforter (the Holy Spirit)  He provided us when Christ was glorified and ascended back into heaven. Since Christ left the earth in his glorified body, you and I as Christians are the physical visible presence of God on earth. In the OT it was the pillar and the cloud of smoke, then the shekinah glory on the ark, then after God withdrew his presence as recounted in the Book of Ezekiel, there was an apostasy for many years. Then one day a baby was born in Bethlehem and once again the physical visible presence of God was on earth for 33 short years. From that ascension on, the Holy Spirit has been provided to indwell the Christian. The indwelt Christian has since then been the physical visible presence of God on the earth. That would include you and me.

It is our responsibility then to live our lives with that mission and responsibility in mind. We have an honor and duty to well represent the Savior and the Father to a lost and dying world, as well as to our fellow Christians. We must honor each other as the living temple of God, even when we disagree. I know I have said nothing about authority and power. Those are not the first and foremost characteristics of God that I sense in my "heart." It is His love, patience, and kindness that speak to me. Of course I don't deny His authority or his power, but I am not a vessel of either of those to you. You are not a vessel of either of those to me. We are brothers in Christ, journeying down life's path as best as we can.

You believe you will stand before the great white throne as a baptized, sealed, and endowed member of the LDS church. I believe I will stand before the great white throne as one individual covered in the atoning blood of Christ - alone and "just as I am." Whatever church I belonged to in this mortal life will be irrelevant - is my belief. I know of nothing that tells me Christ will open a book to check on my church affiliation as part of my judgment.

Last Sunday, with two LDS church members I sang a trio, a special music number in the sacrament service - The lyrics of the first verse -"Come thou fount of every blessing, tune my heart to sing thy praise - streams of mercy never ceasing call for songs of loudest praise. Teach me some melodious sonnet sung by flaming tongues above, praise the mount-I'm fixed upon it, mount of thy redeeming love."  And it goes on with more tender lyrics speaking of a wonderful personal relationship with Christ. We are actually singing those words to Him. He is the fount of every blessing, is He not?

I am simply sharing my understanding of the Savior - not presuming to teach you anything. I shared it from the stand last Sunday as I have done in several sacrament talks and in substitute teaching the gospel doctrine class.  I am going to believe that you were having a bad day when you wrote what you did to me. I know I certainly have those. Best wishes.

[bOObOO]

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am wondering if you are familiar with the old 70s theory of communication and interactions known as "Transactional Analysis?" It feels to me like you are communicating parent to child to me instead of adult to adult. I don't understand what I am dealing with; I am misinformed about how the world is; I have much to learn about God. Do I have that right? And I suppose you just happen to have the answers to my inadequacies? Parent to child is not the best form of communication or dialogue, is it? The parent tells the child the way it is and the child walks away feeling lessened. The child then holds up one hand to push the adult away, while holding out the other to allow the adult to come closer. It is called the "go away closer disease." It is readily visible in abused children. Is there anything else you would like to tell me about me?

So now you are scolding me for speaking to you in what you think is a "parent to child" tone?  Good for you to speak up and share what you think, but I don't think you need to think of me as one of your parents, and I didn't suggest you should treat me like one.  I am a parent but you are not one of my children and I don't think of you as one of my children.  I am speaking to you while following the golden rule, and I would like you to speak to me as an adult in the same way that I am speaking to you...  direct and open in dialogue with nothing but love in my heart while I try to be as polite with you as I would like you to be with me.   

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

... I am a happy and fairly healthy Christian, Evangelical, and Mennonite. I am content and confident in my beliefs, faith, and understanding of God. I am an expert in understanding His patience, lovingkindness, mercy, and longsuffering. I feel His presence in my life via the comforter (the Holy Spirit)  He provided us when Christ was glorified and ascended back into heaven. Since Christ left the earth in his glorified body, you and I as Christians are the physical visible presence of God on earth. In the OT it was the pillar and the cloud of smoke, then the shekinah glory on the ark, then after God withdrew his presence as recounted in the Book of Ezekiel, there was an apostasy for many years. Then one day a baby was born in Bethlehem and once again the physical visible presence of God was on earth for 33 short years. From that ascension on, the Holy Spirit has been provided to indwell the Christian. The indwelt Christian has since then been the physical visible presence of God on the earth. That would include you and me.

It is our responsibility then to live our lives with that mission and responsibility in mind. We have an honor and duty to well represent the Savior and the Father to a lost and dying world, as well as to our fellow Christians. We must honor each other as the living temple of God, even when we disagree. I know I have said nothing about authority and power. Those are not the first and foremost characteristics of God that I sense in my "heart." It is His love, patience, and kindness that speak to me. Of course I don't deny His authority or his power, but I am not a vessel of either of those to you. You are not a vessel of either of those to me. We are brothers in Christ, journeying down life's path as best as we can.

I accept all of that as a statement of your beliefs, and to be open and honest with you I will tell you that there is a lot in what you say that I do not agree with.  There are some things in what you say that I do agree with, but much more that I do not agree with.  I will not break those things down for you now, at this time, but I would like you to be aware that there are often some things you say that I do not agree with, things which I believe you do not understand correctly, even though you most likely have good intentions.  And you probably could say the same thing to me, that there are some if not many things I say which you do not agree with.  So where does this leave us?  With a better sense and understanding of each other, I think, including the way we think things are in this world right now.  Just as I was telling you when I told you that you do not see the world as it really is, at least not from my perspective.  And if you would like to know more about how I see things, I will be happy to tell you, preferably a little bit at a time, here a little and there a little, line upon line, gradually, building precept upon precept.

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

You believe you will stand before the great white throne as a baptized, sealed, and endowed member of the LDS church. I believe I will stand before the great white throne as one individual covered in the atoning blood of Christ - alone and "just as I am." Whatever church I belonged to in this mortal life will be irrelevant - is my belief. I know of nothing that tells me Christ will open a book to check on my church affiliation as part of my judgment.

Your beliefs, again, as you see yourself now and on that day, with much in what you say that I do not agree with.  Or would you rather I say nothing at all in response to you while you say whatever you want to say about whatever you think and believe?

 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

Last Sunday, with two LDS church members I sang a trio, a special music number in the sacrament service - The lyrics of the first verse -"Come thou fount of every blessing, tune my heart to sing thy praise - streams of mercy never ceasing call for songs of loudest praise. Teach me some melodious sonnet sung by flaming tongues above, praise the mount-I'm fixed upon it, mount of thy redeeming love."  And it goes on with more tender lyrics speaking of a wonderful personal relationship with Christ. We are actually singing those words to Him. He is the fount of every blessing, is He not?

Yes, my Lord Jesus Christ is the fount of every blessing to me and all of us in this world and the world to come.  I'm glad to hear that you can sing those lyrics while sensing the truth of that somehow in your own life. 

20 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am simply sharing my understanding of the Savior - not presuming to teach you anything. I shared it from the stand last Sunday as I have done in several sacrament talks and in substitute teaching the gospel doctrine class.  I am going to believe that you were having a bad day when you wrote what you did to me. I know I certainly have those. Best wishes.

No, I was not having a bad day when I said what I said to you.  I was simply sharing some of the truth I see with you, as I see it.  Open and honest dialog.  Do you not want to hear anything that you do not agree with?  I'm not expecting you to believe what I say, even when I know beyond doubt that what I am saying is true and in agreement with what the Lord has taught me.  If you just want to say whatever you want to say without hearing from anyone who doesn't agree with you and in fact sees things differently, even sometimes in opposition to what you think, then maybe you should use the Ignore feature on anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Edited August 26, 2021 by bOObOO

[Navidad]

19 hours ago, bOObOO said:

And if you would like to know more about how I see things, I will be happy to tell you, preferably a little bit at a time, here a little and there a little, line upon line, gradually, building precept upon precept.

 

19 hours ago, bOObOO said:

If you just want to say whatever you want to say without hearing from anyone who doesn't agree with you and in fact sees things differently, even sometimes in opposition to what you think, then maybe you should use the Ignore feature on anyone who doesn't agree with you.

I am always ready to hear different viewpoints about things. I enjoy learning what different folks believe. But telling me what you believe involves "I" statements. What you came at me with was a succession of "you" statements. "You"don't seem to understand what "you" are dealing with here.  The world is not as "you" think it is.  And "you" have much to learn about God's authority and power.

"I" statements open up dialogue while "you" statements shut it down. "Little by little, line upon line, precept upon precept" is a teaching strategy in the LDS church. Perhaps I should clarify that I am not an investigator. I am a fellow Christian looking to understand another Christian's beliefs. I would say the same if you were an Apostolic Pentecostal. There is much about their beliefs I do not understand. I have Apostolic Pentecostal friends, of whom I often ask questions. My presence on this forum is for the same purpose. I accept my LDS-Christian friends as fully Christian. That is my starting place. Then, I simply want to understand more about specific beliefs - not to disagree or argue with those beliefs, but to receive them as new information which makes me a more informed person, especially when speaking to predominantly LDS groups, and interacting with LDS scholars and leaders as I do annually. Perhaps I should emphasize again that my wife and I are closing out our fourth year of faithful attendance, service, and ministry in the same LDS ward. Almost every week we hear things with which we do not agree. Every week we hear things that bless us and help us to grow spiritually, especially when they drive us to better examine our own beliefs.

Several weeks ago we lost John Whetten Sr, a giant spiritual leader in our ward. He often and regularly encouraged me to keep asking questions, especially in elders quorum where he regularly taught. For years, every Sunday my wife and I sat in the pew directly behind Waldo P Call, a retired general authority of the church. He passed away early this year. At his request, I had the joy to research his early mission years and callings.  I felt his loss very strongly. He was a wonderful Godly man. Now we sit with his wife every Sunday in the same pew. They were, and she is wonderfully supportive and kind to us in every way. One of his sons is our Stake President. One of his daughters was the wife of our bishop (up until a few months ago when a new bishop was called).  I spent countless hours with that bishop, running around the colonies to find lost historical locations, listening to his stories about his love of hunting and fishing, and yes talking about spiritual things. Picnics with their family in the Sierra Madre were and are a joy. They have recently moved to Mesa, so I greatly feel their loss. When the world press descended on this area in late 2019 after the tragic killings of Mormon (non-LDS) women and children near here, I assisted in talking to them (the press) about the differences and similarities between the various Mormon groups, especially here in Mexico. I am generally well received in both the LDS and fundamentalist communities. While it is not always easy, it is I believe a special informal calling that I enjoy. It is a complex discussion and in order to speak accurately, I need to be informed. It was an awkward discussion for some of the local leaders, so I was asked to help speak to the press (as a local Mennonite Mormon historian). The Allreds and LeBarons have deep roots here in the LDS colonies; these roots extend to the current time. I hope that brief review helps you to understand me a bit better. Please feel free to share your beliefs. I want to understand them. Thanks.

[Navidad]

Just now, Navidad said:

 

I am always ready to hear different viewpoints about things. I enjoy learning what different folks believe. But telling me what you believe involves "I" statements. What you came at me with was a succession of "you" statements. "You"don't seem to understand what "you" are dealing with here.  The world is not as "you" think it is.  And "you" have much to learn about God's authority and power.

"I" statements open up dialogue while "you" statements shut it down. "Little by little, line upon line, precept upon precept" is a teaching strategy in the LDS church. Perhaps I should clarify that I am not an investigator. I am a fellow Christian looking to understand another Christian's beliefs. I would say the same if you were an Apostolic Pentecostal. There is much about their beliefs I do not understand. I have Apostolic Pentecostal friends, of whom I often ask questions. My presence on this forum is for the same purpose. I accept my LDS-Christian friends as fully Christian. That is my starting place. Then, I simply want to understand more about specific beliefs - not to disagree or argue with those beliefs, but to receive them as new information which makes me a more informed person, especially when speaking to predominantly LDS groups, and interacting with LDS scholars and leaders as I do annually. Whether I agree with those beliefs, or whether you agree with mine is irrelevant. Perhaps I should emphasize again that my wife and I are closing out our fourth year of faithful attendance, service, and ministry in the same LDS ward. Almost every week we hear things with which we do not agree. Every week we hear things that bless us and help us to grow spiritually, especially when they drive us to better examine our own beliefs.

Several weeks ago we lost John Whetten Sr, a giant spiritual leader in our ward. He often and regularly encouraged me to keep asking questions, especially in elders quorum where he regularly taught. For years, every Sunday my wife and I sat in the pew directly behind Waldo P Call, a retired general authority of the church. He passed away early this year. At his request, I had the joy to research his early mission years and callings.  I felt his loss very strongly. He was a wonderful Godly man. Now we sit with his wife every Sunday in the same pew. They were, and she is wonderfully supportive and kind to us in every way. One of his sons is our Stake President. One of his daughters was the wife of our bishop (up until a few months ago when a new bishop was called).  I spent countless hours with that bishop, running around the colonies to find lost historical locations, listening to his stories about his love of hunting and fishing, and yes talking about spiritual things. Picnics with their family in the Sierra Madre were and are a joy. They have recently moved to Mesa, so I greatly feel their loss. When the world press descended on this area in late 2019 after the tragic killings of Mormon (non-LDS) women and children near here, I assisted in talking to them (the press) about the differences and similarities between the various Mormon groups, especially here in Mexico. I am generally well received in both the LDS and fundamentalist communities. While it is not always easy, it is I believe a special informal calling that I enjoy. It is a complex discussion and in order to speak accurately, I need to be informed. It was an awkward discussion for some of the local leaders, so I was asked to help speak to the press (as a local Mennonite Mormon historian). The Allreds and LeBarons have deep roots here in the LDS colonies; these roots extend to the current time. I hope that brief review helps you to understand me a bit better. Please feel free to share your beliefs. I want to understand them. Thanks.

 

[bOObOO]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

 

I am always ready to hear different viewpoints about things. I enjoy learning what different folks believe. But telling me what you believe involves "I" statements. What you came at me with was a succession of "you" statements. "You"don't seem to understand what "you" are dealing with here.  The world is not as "you" think it is.  And "you" have much to learn about God's authority and power.

"I" statements open up dialogue while "you" statements shut it down. "Little by little, line upon line, precept upon precept" is a teaching strategy in the LDS church. Perhaps I should clarify that I am not an investigator. I am a fellow Christian looking to understand another Christian's beliefs. I would say the same if you were an Apostolic Pentecostal. There is much about their beliefs I do not understand. I have Apostolic Pentecostal friends, of whom I often ask questions. My presence on this forum is for the same purpose. I accept my LDS-Christian friends as fully Christian. That is my starting place. Then, I simply want to understand more about specific beliefs - not to disagree or argue with those beliefs, but to receive them as new information which makes me a more informed person, especially when speaking to predominantly LDS groups, and interacting with LDS scholars and leaders as I do annually. Perhaps I should emphasize again that my wife and I are closing out our fourth year of faithful attendance, service, and ministry in the same LDS ward. Almost every week we hear things with which we do not agree. Every week we hear things that bless us and help us to grow spiritually, especially when they drive us to better examine our own beliefs.

Several weeks ago we lost John Whetten Sr, a giant spiritual leader in our ward. He often and regularly encouraged me to keep asking questions, especially in elders quorum where he regularly taught. For years, every Sunday my wife and I sat in the pew directly behind Waldo P Call, a retired general authority of the church. He passed away early this year. At his request, I had the joy to research his early mission years and callings.  I felt his loss very strongly. He was a wonderful Godly man. Now we sit with his wife every Sunday in the same pew. They were, and she is wonderfully supportive and kind to us in every way. One of his sons is our Stake President. One of his daughters was the wife of our bishop (up until a few months ago when a new bishop was called).  I spent countless hours with that bishop, running around the colonies to find lost historical locations, listening to his stories about his love of hunting and fishing, and yes talking about spiritual things. Picnics with their family in the Sierra Madre were and are a joy. They have recently moved to Mesa, so I greatly feel their loss. When the world press descended on this area in late 2019 after the tragic killings of Mormon (non-LDS) women and children near here, I assisted in talking to them (the press) about the differences and similarities between the various Mormon groups, especially here in Mexico. I am generally well received in both the LDS and fundamentalist communities. While it is not always easy, it is I believe a special informal calling that I enjoy. It is a complex discussion and in order to speak accurately, I need to be informed. It was an awkward discussion for some of the local leaders, so I was asked to help speak to the press (as a local Mennonite Mormon historian). The Allreds and LeBarons have deep roots here in the LDS colonies; these roots extend to the current time. I hope that brief review helps you to understand me a bit better. Please feel free to share your beliefs. I want to understand them. Thanks.

Very well written.  I feel better educated now.  This was my favorite part of what "you" said.  "I" statements open up dialogue while "you" statements shut it down.  You can consider my last use of the word "you" with you as what shut this dialogue down.

[Rajah Manchou]

On 8/22/2021 at 4:17 AM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Well there was the very creative Zelph (the white Lamanite) story. I would imagine that telling too many stories about the characters would become problematic without significant notes since you wouldn’t want to contradict the revealed text. 

Or it demonstrates that Jospeh was not the author of the Book of Mormon.

My opinion is that the Zelph and Prophet Onandagus story was Joseph trying to expand the Book of Mormon narrative to align with Samuel Mitchell's hypothesis that there was a great battle between a fair skinned race (white Lamanites) and a darker skinned race (Lamanites) in Onondaga County, next to Wayne County.

Samuel Mitchell had recognized the characters on the Anthon transcript as being an authentic oriental script, so it made sense to align the BOM narrative to Mitchell's theory.